Strong safe---where

[BIGGBAY90]

Oh okay---i'm here trying to learn as much as i can before i buy---you guys have great information and i hope all knows thatS what it all about

 

[adirondack]

How many of you are typing on a computer with the majority of parts made in China? 100% of you unless you're using a 1946 ENIAC vacuum tube computer.

WHAT??!! Are you suggesting that Silicon Valley came from China? Are you suggesting that the integrated circuit was invented in China. Are you suggesting that the computer was invented in China. Intel, IBM, Apple did any of these start in China? No, manufacturing moved there because some bean counter determined a few bucks could be saved by doing it. So who's economy is now struggling and who's growing?

 

[a1abdj]

For Alyssa:

No offense, but we would choose to hire actual mechanical engineers.

Of course you would. Certainly a mechanical engineer would know more about breaking into a safe than somebody who actually breaks into safes.

Furthermore, we have been a repair station for all brands of safes for the past 30 years, and that’s about the time you were born Frank.

What exactly is a "repair station"? Who's safes do you repair? Why are you repairing them? Which manufacturers endorse your services or use you to repair safes under warranty?

In California, those that work on safes are required to obtain a contractor's license, and the law states that the license number is to be displayed on all business forms, as well as websites. I don't see your license number on your website.

I've repaired many safes over the years, and have never brought them to a station. We usually fix them right where they sit. Very rarely do they need to be removed.

Your not trying to sell Biggbay90 a G5931 (which is a B-rated Chinese safe) Frank? Is that what your saying? We all know your on here selling your safes in addition to providing information. This is one of the things you do for a living.

No. He asked a question, and I answered it. Had I been trying to sell a safe, I would have suggested one of my safes. He's the one that brought it up, not me.

I've also addressed what I do for a living. Gun safe sales (mostly local to St. Louis) make up less than 5% of my business. I'm not here to sell gun safes. If I was going to sell anything to boost my living, I would be here selling the custom restored vault doors.

Are you, or are you not, stating to our customers reading this thread, that they should be worried about Sturdy Safes being pried open, with a 6ft pry bar, by a thief?

I'm stating that anybody who currently owns a safe, or plans on owning a safe, of any type, B rate construction or lighter, made by any manufacturer, is susceptible to a brute force attack on the safe, including a pry attack.

I don't know why you are taking this so personally. I have said multiple times this involves all safes, even those I sell. The only reason your name keeps coming up is because you and your customers keep wanting to focus on your safe. If you guys want to talk about me prying open an AMSEC, I'd be glad to tell you how I am capable of doing that too!

Like I have previously stated, Sturdy Gun Safe doors do not allow enough gap for a pry bar to get started, however, IF you were able to get a pry bar started, we already know, with enough force, you can bend the lip of the door up. HOWEVER THIS WILL STILL NOT OPEN THE DOOR. The welding everywhere on the door is more than substantial as you can see.......etc.......etc.......

It's still possible. It may only be possible under a very specific set of circumstances, but it's still possible.

Sure every engineer knows that given a leaver big enough and long enough you can move almost any weight, but can that be PRACTICALLY APPLIED to prying a Sturdy Safe? Of course not! There are problems such as pry bar thickness not being adequate. We can state that it’s impossible to go to the moon, but then you would say, yes it is possible, it’s been done before. Disregarding the practicality of actually doing it. Basically, we understand no safe is impregnable, but due to mechanical engineers, expert safe crackers, and our own vigorous testing, we are very comfortable in saying that our customers have nothing to worry about when it comes to practical pry bar attacks. You are saying otherwise still, correct?

Sounds like you just said it's possible yourself. So I'll agree with you.

But wait a minute. Earlier you said you would choose to use engineers, not safe crackers. Now you're saying you do use them. Who are these expert safe crackers? There's not a lot of us out there, and I know a number of them. Anybody I can call to verify that they've worked for you?

You forgot to add the word “not". The “10000lb stack of 5/16” could NOT flex” an inch, like it could have, if it was possible to do so.

It would have given the proper circumstances. Your pry bar was pretty much your weak link there.

Sturdy Safe took you up on your challenge to call local locksmiths. All the locksmiths said; a WELL MADE B rated safe is virtually impossible to pry open, however, there were some that had welded in door seats that could be breached by taking a sledge hammer and beating the door in. Breaking the welds that held the door seat. This however, is not just a pry bar attack. I guess thickness is not everything.

Well assuming you really did call local safe techs. I find it odd that all of them said the same thing. Who did you call?

Whomever you "spoke" with did say "virtually impossible". That certainly sounds like it is possible then? Does it not?

Let's also consider two things. The first being that a true B rate commercial safe is using heavier materials than you. The second being that most B rate commercial safes are much smaller than yours, making them much more rigid.

I know you're getting upset because your name keeps coming up. I have not singled you out in any way. I could be having this discussion about any safe, and have repeatedly said that what I'm saying applied to many other safes. You and your customers keep wanting to use your safe as an example, which is why your name keeps popping up. If you guys want to talk about prying open an AMSEC BF, then I'll talk about doing that too. I would do it in a different fashion, but it's still possible.

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Quote:
A1abdj: #4 On Another Thread: "Brown doesn't built UL rated safes"

Yet Brown Mfg. needed to come on here and tell you they do.

You're not quoting my whole sentence. You're just cutting out the important part. My entire quote is " Brown doesn't built UL rated safes to my knowledge." It's right there on the link you provided.

To my knowledge they didn't build UL rated safes. My initial look at their website indicated ISO classifications, and did not mention anything about UL. After they explained that they did, I dug a little deeper into the site, and found reference to it.

That would be similar to quoting you as saying: "they should be worried about Sturdy Safes being pried open". Right there, you said that they should be worried about their safes being pried. Your words...just not all of them.

We called Amsec. They agreed with us that Franks statement is not true and when viewing the substance in person, you can see it‘s not true. This is in addition, to everyone else on the forum telling him it‘s not true. He was comparing our safe to an 11g body, 16 g liner Amsec gun safe. -This was discussed on this thread (#36) as well.

Why would they tell you that, when everything they have in print says different? Who did you speak with?

The walls of the AMSEC could be filled with sand, and what I said would still be true.

Interesting though, that a major manufacturer would tell another manufacturer how sucky their products are. Once you give me their name, I'm going to call them and get their opinion straight out of the horse's mouth. I'm astounded that you got to talk to anybody there who really knows what they're talking about. I'm a good sized dealer, and I even have a hard time getting who I need on the phone. Of course when Sturdy's on the line, they drop whatever they're doing to tell you exactly why your safes are better than theirs.

3.
Quote:
A1abdj: #2 On Another Thread: "The AMSEC is 10 gauge and 14 gauge. I have verified this myself with Amsec at a level above the customer service reps that answer the phones."

After 4 people corrected you saying it was really an 11g body and 16g liner, you go on to state;

Quote:
A1abdj: #35 On Another Thread:"I have not verified this, but according to somebody else I know in the business, they have a cut away model that states they are now 11 gauge.”

Which we know for a fact now, you were wrong again.

These safes have gone through several design changes. I was not wrong. The materials used on the safe depend on their year and model. The AMSEC BF has been built with both a 10/14 gauge configuration, and the 11/16 gauge configuration. The fill materials have also changed.

His point being, the bf gun safes must be just as good in a fire as the smaller UL fire rated BF safes, right? Wrong. This is entirely incorrect and very misleading. The smaller UL Fire rated bf safes use Vermiculite mix, which Amsec says performs better in a fire compared to the dry light used in their bf gun safes. In addition, their wall thicknesses differ. We called Amsec, and they agreed with us that what Frank stated is not true.

My point being that the material is a proven fire barrier. I'm talking about a different safe. Of course the wall thicknesses differ. That's not a big secret, and is clearly described to anybody who looks at their website or catalog.

Again, I have no idea who you're talking to at AMSEC. I have drilled holes through both the smaller BF safes, and BF gun safes. The fill was the same.

Even though, we proved you cannot do this with a pry bar that’s actually capable of being used on a Sturdy Gun Safe.

Any pry bar is capable of being used on your safe, so you haven't proved much.

Even though you will not say how you would do it, so we can debunk you.

Of course not. I already explained why I don't go into details. In case you forgot, I'll repeat it again. I take security very seriously, even the security of your customers. I do not put out any information that could be used by anybody with ill intent.

I also explained that there are several much faster and easier ways to open your safes. If I was going to break into any safe, I wouldn't use a pry bar. Actually, I do use a pry bar to open Sentry safes, but only to prove to their owners that they shouldn't be using them to store valuables.

 

[a1abdj]

Funny I was thinking the same thing about you! Do you just sell their safes or do you have a side deal with their Marketing/PR Department? Full disclosure please.

Less than 1% of my sales are AMSEC gun safes. As a professional, I know what's good and what isn't. I have also suggested Sturdy safes, and have stated multiple times, in multiple threads, on multiple boards, that they are good safes as well.

I am not a Sturdy dealer. Sturdy doesn't give me a commission. Perhaps my only motivation is truth.

For all you know, all knowing one, he's repeating what the salesman told him on the phone when he called to ask about the safe.

Why would the salesman say something different than the written description on the website? Why would the owner of the company (whom I spoke with on the phone) confirm that there was no hole?

You think it's a conspiracy? I'm out to get you? I sent the black helicopters down there to get him to make sure his story jived with mine?

I think you should have left it at that. It's never good to let your ego get in the way, especially when you keep getting proved wrong.

You keep saying I'm being "proved wrong". Of course you also keep saying there's a hole. Somebody needs to get back to reality.

I assume you'll be man enough to admit that's YOU if the owner responds to your email and says it was a hole like he previously stated?

I'll quote our conversation. If you'd like me to PM you a copy, I'll do that too. So far he hasn't responded.

 

[adirondack]

Well despite what the naysayers say, Sturdy Safe makes a great product and the fact that their customers are so quick to defend them should speak something for anyone considering a gun safe.

Their design is brilliant in my opinion. They don't go the "lets go for the B rating and get a 1/4" on the body and 1/2" on the door" design philosophy. No their design is for purpose (ax and pry bar defense) and there is a lot of steel devoted to the super structure under the door intended to meet that purpose.

Their fire protection is first rate too and in fact you couldn't use a better choice of materials. And don't believe what you hear from the "experts" including myself, go check for yourself. See what the thermal conductivity of ceramic wool is and fiber glass is and see if there is anything else better. There's not much else even close except maybe foam and that can't handle extremely high temperatures and don't think because air has a lower thermal conductivity that that would be a better choice because much like a toaster, radiant heat can transfer across air to the inner liner as well.

Every thing about Sturdy Safe's design is optimized to meet a need, no it's not TL rated but it is the gun safe most of us should have IMO based on the value of our collections. Of course, 9 out of 10 safe salesmen might disagree with that statement

 

[a1abdj]

Well despite what the naysayers say. Sturdy Safe makes a great product and the fact that their customers are so quick to defend them should speak something for anyone considering a gun safe.

I've always said it's a decent product.

Their design is brilliant in my opinion.

You can probably thank some people who have been long dead. Sturdy isn't really doing much that hasn't been done on other safes in the past. Safe building isn't exactly rocket science.

They don't go the "lets go for the B rating and get a 1/4" on the body and 1/2" on the door" design philosophy. No their design is for purpose (ax and pry bar defense) and there is a lot of steel devoted to the super structure under the door intended to meet that purpose.

Why not? Isn't more steel more resistant? It would surely come at a higher price, but better security costs more.

Interestingly enough, the gun safe market seems to be returning to its roots. At the beginning gun safe manufacturers focused on heavier steel, no fireproofing, and bare interiors. Then they started getting fancy, at the expense of the heavier steels. Now many manufacturers are going back to heavier steel.

Maybe people are starting to realize that safes really aren't furniture. They are designed to protect assets, and the paint job, gold plating, and fur lined interiors don't have much to do with that.

go check for yourself. See what the thermal conductivity of ceramic wool is and fiber glass is and see if there is anything else better. There's not much else even close except maybe foam and that can't handle extremely high temperatures and don't think because air has a lower thermal conductivity that that would be a better choice because much like a toaster, radiant heat can transfer across air to the inner liner as well.

People should check for themselves.

If you're shopping for furnace insulation, look at what the major manufacturers are using. When you're looking at safes, look at what the major (real safe) manufacturers are using.

no it's not TL rated but it is the gun safe most of us should have IMO based on the value of our collections.

I have spoken with several members of several forums over the year. Collections have ranged in value from a few hundred dollars, to several hundred thousand dollars. You would be surprised how many on these forums have firearm collections worth over $30,000.

In addition to the value of the contents, several other factors come in to play. Anybody purchasing a safe should consult with a local professional who is familiar with these factors, some of which are specific to your location.

 

[adirondack]

Why not? Isn't more steel more resistant? It would surely come at a higher price, but better security costs more.

But Frank, what is the point. 1/4" steel isn't going to stop a circular saw with a diamond tip saw blade any better than 3/16" it might just buy a few seconds. 3/16" inch especially if is a good quality steel grade will be plenty to stop a fire ax so until you get to armored plated that's 1" thick you're not going to stop this type of attack or delay it long enough to get a response from the authorities.

If you're shopping for furnace insulation, look at what the major manufacturers are using. When you're looking at safes, look at what the major (real safe) manufacturers are using.

No you are better off looking at the furnace, it is designed with the expectation of stopping heat transfer not as a just in case. What is being used in the the Sturdy Safe will be as effective on the 1000th house fire as it is on the first with no degradation in performance; of course that costs money but it's worth it in my opinion.

 

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Why would the salesman say something different than the written description on the website? Why would the owner of the company (whom I spoke with on the phone) confirm that there was no hole?

You're joking right?

They are designed to protect assets, and the paint job, gold plating, and fur lined interiors don't have much to do with that.

Really? From what I hear on these boards the "fur lined interior" is the only reason to get an Amsec BF over a Sturdy.

If you're shopping for furnace insulation, look at what the major manufacturers are using. When you're looking at safes, look at what the major (real safe) manufacturers are using.

Most manufacturers use what's cheapest and easiest, what has the best return for it's price to value ratio. In effect what the best deal is for the money.

Well assuming you really did call local safe techs. I find it odd that all of them said the same thing. Who did you call?

Why would you not believe her when you believe some salesman you don't know who sold a damaged safe. Because he told you what you wanted to hear? Even after the owner of the safe clearly said it was a hole? Sounds like the 2 Amsec dealer are protecting their brand.

Gun safe sales (mostly local to St. Louis) make up less than 5% of my business. I'm not here to sell gun safes. If I was going to sell anything to boost my living, I would be here selling the custom restored vault doors.

I doubt there would be much of a market on here for "custom restored vault doors" given that most people on here want to spend $1000 or less on a safe. Again you're not really making sense.

I don't know why you are taking this so personally.

Dude, you're the one who has spent 40 man hours taking it personally this week. Two manufacturers came on here a couple of times each to defend themselves after you misrepresented their products. And you have the nerve to question both of their motives? What's your motive. Don't tell me it's to help people that's a load of crap at this point.

These safes have gone through several design changes. I was not wrong.

Funny how you continued to get it wrong even after you were corrected by people who called Amsec directly and were lucky enough to get someone over there who knew what they were talking about. As you may remember it took them a while to find anyone who could even give them any accurate information. Again since it wasn't in your interest to admit that Amsec went to 11/16 gauge you kept quoting the old specs.

It would have given the proper circumstances. Your pry bar was pretty much your weak link there.

That was the most serious pry bar I have ever seen. I doubt you could pick up one that's bigger.

Any pry bar is capable of being used on your safe, so you haven't proved much.

They have tested their safe. Have you? You're the one that HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING. Talk is cheap and you're master of cheap talk. Bottom line is prove them wrong or shut up already.

I know you're getting upset because your name keeps coming up.

Man you have nerve. You've posted around 50-60 times on this thread alone, continuing to claim you can do something that you've never done to their safe and they come on to call you BS and you say their upset? If they posted nonsense and insults as much as you then I'd say they were upset.

 

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Quote:
We all know your on here selling your safes in addition to providing information."
If he is, it's extremely subtle

Subtle to you maybe.

Quote:
Who is keizer ---a safe dealer or repairman
I'm not really sure what he is but he appears to be quite the loudmouth at the moment.

At the moment???

A sharp steel wedge and a sledge hammer disagree with you.

So you're admitting that a pry bar won't work?

Regardless you're theory is just a theory. Let us know when you've had a chance to prove it. I saw the Pendelton video and those guys used all those tools on a lesser safe and had no luck getting it in the tight door of that safe.

Nope, you are here to do exactly what you say he is here doing......selling your product.,

They've posted twice he's posted 60 or so times. Who's selling here?

And if I was Sturdy I'd tell Frank to shut his mouth or prove he could do what he claims. Otherwise move on or risk getting sued for libel.

I'm not one who likes to get lawyers involved but we've got an obsessive compulsive bad mouthing a product he doesn't, and will never be able to sell and that competes directly with one he does sell. And despite what Keiser claims he does try to sell it on here all the time. Oh that's right it's too subtle for Keiser to see...

 

[a1abdj]

You're joking right?

No, I'm not. Tell me why a salesman would say there's a hole, when the photo shows no hole, the description does not mention a hole, and the owner verifies that there was no hole (and of course I'm waiting for confirmation from the safe's owner that there was no hole).

Really? From what I hear on these boards the "fur lined interior" is the only reason to get an Amsec BF over a Sturdy.

You obviously haven't really read many of my posts then.

Most manufacturers use what's cheapest and easiest, what has the best return for it's price to value ratio. In effect what the best deal is for the money.

Of course they do. Then, there are the companies that build very high end safes. Safes that cost big, big money. Why aren't any of them using it? Cost is certainly not a factor in every case. In fact, most manufacturers offer various grades of safes. Why wouldn't a manufacturer build a safe with a better material for a higher price?

Why is it that just a few gun safe manufacturers use this material? I have seen it used by other manufacturers as secondary insulation, so they certainly don't have a problem finding it or paying for it.

Why would you not believe her when you believe some salesman you don't know who sold a damaged safe. Because he told you what you wanted to hear? Even after the owner of the safe clearly said it was a hole? Sounds like the 2 Amsec dealer are protecting their brand.

She allegedly likes to make phone calls to verify what I say. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same opportunity?

I doubt there would be much of a market on here for "custom restored vault doors" given that most people on here want to spend $1000 or less on a safe. Again you're not really making sense.

There sure isn't. If I'm not here selling vault doors, and I'm not here selling gun safes, what the heck am I doing here?

Perhaps I'm doing what I've said I've been doing all along?

Dude, you're the one who has spent 40 man hours taking it personally this week. Two manufacturers came on here a couple of times each to defend themselves after you misrepresented their products. And you have the nerve to question both of their motives? What's your motive. Don't tell me it's to help people that's a load of crap at this point.

Again, I haven't misrepresented, lied, or stated any misinformation. I have addressed each accusation point by point.

If I'm not helping people, what have I been doing? I'm assuming you haven't read any of the other 1,000 plus posts I've made? Many of these post are about products I don't even sell, and even when I do sell them, I usually point them towards a local dealer.

Funny how you continued to get it wrong even after you were corrected by people who called Amsec directly and were lucky enough to get someone over there who knew what they were talking about. As you may remember it took them a while to find anyone who could even give them any accurate information. Again since it wasn't in your interest to admit that Amsec went to 11/16 gauge you kept quoting the old specs.

Well the safes I had were the previous model year. I had not yet even seen any of the newer models at that point.

This isn't really uncommon in any industry. You act as if I was fabricating numbers. The numbers I gave were accurate for the safes I was referring to. The new safes had new numbers, which was acknowledged once I confirmed it.

As stated numerous times before, gun safes make up less than 5% of my sales. I don't spend every waking second on the phone with the gun safe manufacturers to get build changes before they're announced anywhere else.

That was the most serious pry bar I have ever seen. I doubt you could pick up one that's bigger.

So we're going to insults now? That's when we know you've really lost the argument. False accusations and name calling. You should work for the Democrats.

They have tested their safe. Have you? You're the one that HASN'T PROVED ANYTHING. Talk is cheap and you're master of cheap talk. Bottom line is prove them wrong or shut the F up already.

I haven't tested most of the safes I've sold. I have however seen safes of all types, and of all constructions, attacked in all sorts of manners. I have even seen a safe stolen using frozen turkeys.

I don't need to pry on every 1/4" safe to know that 1/4" can be pried.

Man you have nerve. You've posted around 50-60 times on this thread alone, continuing to claim you can do something that you've never done to their safe and they come on to call you BS and you say their upset? If they posted nonsense and insults as much as you then I'd say they were upset.

Why are you so interested in an issue that you claim involves me and them?

I've never counted to 10,000, but assure you I can do so. You don't need to do something to know you can do it. Again, safe construction isn't rocket science. People like me who work with them every day know lots of little tricks that guys like you would never even consider.

How many safes have you broken in to? Since experience is what you believe determines one's ability to speak about a product, I suggest you go ahead and leave the thread.

Subtle to you maybe.

That's right. I'm such a great salesman, that I sell safes without even selling safes. I sold 422 safes this month to THR members. You caught me!

They've posted twice he's posted 60 or so times. Who's selling here?

There are threads outside of this one. Sturdy is here to sell safes. So is Brown. It's not a big secret. How many times have I ended what I have said with "contact me for more information". How many times have they?

And if I was Sturdy I'd tell Frank to shut his mouth or prove he could do what he claims. Otherwise move on or risk getting sued for libel.

That would be a great idea, although if they have a good lawyer he would probably suggest against it. Unlike you, real words matter in court. You know, the stuff that was actually said, not what you "think" was said. Not to mention the risk of a safe getting torn up in front of a judge or jury to prove a point and win a countersuit.

I'm not a legal expert or anything, but I have spoken the truth about safes for well over 18 years now. I have said things about safes from companies much larger than Sturdy. Nobody has sued me yet.

I'm not one who likes to get lawyers involved but we've got an obsessive compulsive bad mouthing a product he doesn't, and will never be able to sell and that competes directly with one he does sell. And despite what Keiser claims he does try to sell it on here all the time. Oh that's right it's too subtle for Keiser to see...

1) I'm not bad mouthing any product. Quite the opposite really. Of course I already pointed out that you don't really like to read what I say, and prefer to invent a different version inside of your head.

2) Is badmouthing a product an actionable cause? Might want to google that or something.

3) Several members, not part of this argument, have already told you about me refusing to sell them safes. Again, you're only hearing what you want to hear.

 

[heeler]

Well this thing has turned and badly.

As far as why one person(this person) chose the Amsec BF over the Sturdy is not about fancy carpet.
I have seen pictures,YouTube film clips,and read peoples opinions of the Sturdy.
I dont have the slightest doubt that it is a well made,robust,and very secure gun safe.
My number one reason I did not order one is simply because I could not spend over $2000.00 on something sight unseen.
I want to see what it looks like up front and personal for that kind of money.
Since Sturdy does not have a dealer network and no one in my local area had one I could look at I simply chose the Amsec with the SAME knowledge that it along with the Sturdy,according to the two years I spent researching gun safes was going to be very hard to break into as long as one bolted it down and placed into a strong point area.
Either of these two will take a lot of abuse before yielding up their owners treasure.
But please people lets not get into the habit of straining gnats.
These safesAmsec BF,Sturdy,Liberty Presidential,Browning Platinum,etc. most definitely CAN be broken into and this CAN be done with a brute force attack as long as the offender(s) have the time,knowledge,and hardware available to him.
As I stated in two other posts in this long winding road of a thread....More times than not if your home is broken into and your safe is bolted and well placed and you dont leave power tools and heavy duty hand tools lying about,then when the sorry sob who has invaded your peaceful domain to pillage you of your hard earned gains comes across your well placed and bolted PREMIUM gun safe like those I just mentioned, they will probably not suceed in getting in with what they happened to bring with them when they entered your home.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

adirondack said:

WHAT??!! Are you suggesting that Silicon Valley came from China? Are you suggesting that the integrated circuit was invented in China. Are you suggesting that the computer was invented in China. Intel, IBM, Apple did any of these start in China? No, manufacturing moved there because some bean counter determined a few bucks could be saved by doing it. So who's economy is now struggling and who's growing?

That's pretty amusing. I never mentioned Silicon Valley at all nor suggested or implied Silicon Valley came from China because that would be geographically incorrect. Seems to be a common trend that people are replying to comments that were never said.

Interestingly enough, what is your definition of "computer"? At one point in time, a computer was a person that computed figures. Is a calculator a computer? The abacus is an ancient computer invented in Mesopotamia. How about a mechanical computer? Charles Babbage created the Babbage engine in Britain. Alan Turing was another Brit responsible for computer science. George Stibitz is responsible for the digital computer.

"Beancounters" seem to be a mysterious group of creatures that live with "lawyers" and "politicians" whenever anyone wants to find a scapegoat. It's much easier to blame a scapegoat than look at the ridiculous taxes, fees, regulations, and hoops that local, state, and federal government push on businesses which drive them out of state or out of country.

If you're possibly inferring that Silicon Valley is responsible for silicon-based technology today and forevermore simply because it originated there, then who do we owe credit to for every industry that uses gunpowder or built technology upon cast iron? Charles Kuen Kao is considered the progenitor of high speed data networks such as broadband internet and telecommunications via fiber optics which is pretty important and a critical globally used technology. He was finally recognized last year with a Nobel Prize in physics. There are a lot of smart people everywhere. The groundwork for the IC was developed by the Germans and the British. Maybe you were thinking of the transistor that originated from Bell Labs? One of the most innovative smartphone manufacturers that competes with Apple is HTC (which I find is a superior product). They aren't US-based. Interesting that you'd bring up Apple in passing. Apple's net profit margins are 20.72%. Evil major integrated oil companies make 5.4% and evil health care plan companies make 4.7% on average. Ahh...darn those evil oil companies and their huge profit margins.

Our economy is struggling largely because of government-corporate interests and poor financial decisions and management made worse by four bailouts. The USA dropped two places this year on the Index of Economic Freedom because of it (we're now behind Canada). China's economy, while not remotely free, is booming and improving because after being ravaged by the takeover of communism and the Cultural Revolution for nearly a century, it's finally realizing it's manufacturing potential and allowing growth. Japan was a pretty lousy manufacturer, even after the war for several decades. Then they ramped up and became a leader in cutting-edge technology. It's how nations progress.

Our vendors and customers include mainly aerospace customers. Apparently you've never dealt with the attitude of mediocrity in some large American unions. That'll give you a new perspective on a certain demographic of our workforce. I'd rather be objective and see both positives and negatives than adhere to blind nationalism. Maybe it's the soundbyte culture of today's society but very rarely can you make simple arguments for complex systems.

Anyhow it takes a lot more than a "made in" stamp to sell a product.

 

[a1abdj]

Anyhow it takes a lot more than a "made in" stamp to sell a product.

It also takes a very subtle approach.

 

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No, I'm not. Tell me why a salesman would say there's a hole, when the photo shows no hole, the description does not mention a hole, and the owner verifies that there was no hole (and of course I'm waiting for confirmation from the safe's owner that there was no hole).

So now you're quoting someone saying something you want to hear before they've even said it??? I'll remind you the one quote we have from him is that there is a hole that pierced the steel. Until you hear different stop making quotes up.

She allegedly likes to make phone calls to verify what I say.

And you allegedly called the guy who sold the damaged safe? And you allegedly emailed they guy who bought it? And best of all you allegedly know what this guy is going to say before he says it? Wow!

I'm assuming you haven't read any of the other 1,000 plus posts I've made?

I read plenty and I noticed immediately how manipulative you are.

Quote:
That was the most serious pry bar I have ever seen. I doubt you could pick up one that's bigger.


So we're going to insults now? That's when we know you've really lost the argument. False accusations and name calling. You should work for the Democrats.

Funny, I'm not a Democrat, why the name calling? And it wasn't an insult, I probably couldn't pick up a bigger one either and I'm much bigger then you. I said it because you said this in case you forgot...

Your pry bar was pretty much your weak link there.

You act as if I was fabricating numbers. The numbers I gave were accurate for the safes I was referring to. The new safes had new numbers, which was acknowledged once I confirmed it.

You were told numerous times, by numerous people that the gauges changed. Yet you kept repeating the old numbers in different threads.

How many safes have you broken in to? Since experience is what you believe determines one's ability to speak about a product, I suggest you go ahead and leave the thread.

How many Sturdys have you pryed open? How many Sturdy's have you broken into in general? Since you have ZERO experience with them perhaps you're the one who should go ahead and leave.

How many times have I ended what I have said with "contact me for more information". How many times have they?

Them? Maybe a couple of times. You 1191 times. After all your sig with all your info is at the end of every post. That in itself is says contact me for more information.

have spoken the truth about safes for well over 18 years now.

You started selling safes at 13?

2) Is badmouthing a product an actionable cause? Might want to google that or something.

Misrepresenting them might be. Especially since you sell the product that competes with them directly.

Funny I was thinking the same thing about you! Do you just sell their safes or do you have a side deal with their Marketing/PR Department? Full disclosure please.

I was asking about Amsec Frank, not Sturdy. Isn't it time for full disclosure?

 

[a1abdj]

So now you're quoting someone saying something you want to hear before they've even said it??? I'll remind you the one quote we have from him is that there is a hole that pierced the steel. Until you hear different stop making quotes up.

violation removed[/]

And you allegedly called the guy who sold the damaged safe? And you allegedly emailed they guy who bought it? And best of all you allegedly know what this guy is going to say before he says it? Wow!

Call the guy yourself. Ask if he spoke with me. Would you like me to print out a copy of my phone records and show you the calls I made to him?

I read plenty and I noticed immediately how manipulative you are.

Yay! I've been called a new name.

Funny, I'm not a Democrat, why the name calling? And it wasn't an insult, I probably couldn't pick up a bigger one either and I'm much bigger then you. I said it because you said this in case you forgot...

Sure it wasn't.

You were told numerous times, by numerous people that the gauges changed. Yet you kept repeating the old numbers in different threads.

I sure did. Because the safes made prior to the change were still in the market. All of the safe I was selling at the time were still safes built with the old numbers. It's not uncommon for me to have safes in the warehouse over 1 year old.

Chances are good that anybody buying a safe around the time of the change would have ended up with an older model.

How many Sturdys have you pryed open? How many Sturdy's have you broken into in general? Since you have ZERO experience with them perhaps you're the one who should go ahead and leave.

Let's assume neither of us have. I have opened thousands of safes. Between you and I, who do you think would have a better chance of knowing how to break into a safe. You already admitted that you don't think you'd even be able to pick up a pry bar.

Them? Maybe a couple of times. You 1232 times. After all your sig with all your info is at the end of every post. That's in itself is saying contact me for me information.

I've read it a few times. I don't have an Ivy League education, but perhaps you could point out where it says "contact me for information".

In fact, both manufacturers here have contact information in their signatures. Of course they add "contact us for more information" themselves. You can also do a google search and find these manufacturers on other forums (also selling) quite easily.

You started selling safes at 13?

I sure did. You can read all about it on the website. I have done all sorts of facinating things, all starting in my early teens. Jewelry, limousines, nightclubs, trucking, reposessing, real estate, etc....

Misrepresenting them might be. Especially since you sell the product that competes with them directly.

There might be a hole in the safe too, but there's not. Aside from knowing a little bit about safes, I know a little bit about the law too.

I was asking about Amsec Frank, not Sturdy. Isn't it time for full disclosure?

I already answered your question. AMSEC gun safes, less than 1% of sales. You either don't read what I say, or ignore the parts you don't like to hear. I bet I could make that number at least 2% if I decided to start selling safes here. Contact me for more information!

But seriously. Are you going to keep asking me the same questions over and over? Do you expect me to slip up and say two different things?

I have a pretty sterling reputation here, on other forums, and in real life. I say things how they are, and don't sugar coat anything. If I say it happened it did, and if I say it's possible it is. You don't really need my signature on a contract, because my handshake means more than a piece of paper.

You can argue with me all you want, but I have you beat with facts, experience, and evidence. It is what it is. If you want to debate your areas of expertise, I would probably yeild to your opinion.

 

[JShirley]

More than enough.