Strong safe---where

[a1abdj]

Here is the picture again. Yea, that's not some torn 11 gauge steel, like you guys said that's just some minor cosmetic damage. A rag and a little windex and it will be just like new!

Just some spotting putty and some paint (provided free by AMSEC). What you're seeing is in fact a hole. It's a hole through the putty down to bare steel. There is no hole in the steel.

That white stuff that you believe to be the drylight looks familiar. Here's are other photos of the same safe:

Think that's a hole through the 1/2" plate?

Look! More HOLES! AND proof that AMSEC SUCKS! The shelves really did fall!

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I guess the only solution is to find out who here bought it, and inquire with them the condition with the damage. I was hoping the website had larger images, but it doesn't look like higher resolution images are available. Holy crap, $9k+ is the going rate for the HS7943 on that site? Not sure if that is MSRP or street but pass me a used Tann or ISM instead!

 

[a1abdj]

crap, $9k+ is the going rate for the HS7943 on that site?

Yup.

pass me a used Tann or ISM instead

Yes, but the new prices of these types of safes will make the new price of that AMSEC look like a bargain

I guess the only solution is to find out who here bought it, and inquire with them the condition with the damage.

I'm also going to call the dealer first thing tomorrow. I want to make sure there's no misinformation that needs correcting.

I don't even really know what point he's trying to make. It's not hard to put a hole through a gun safe with something like a forklift. Even though it's possible, doesn't change the fact that there's not a hole in that picture.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Amesc vs sturdy fire liner thread #295

Wow!-- what a breakdown, it seems like it is all down on paper--sturdy really did they homework---i see no responce to that--must be true

 

[adirondack]

Frank,

It could be that a previous model was using Vermiculite (manufacturers are moving away from Vermiculite due to a risk of asbestos exposure) as an aggregate which is not as good as Perlite. Perlite is the about as good as a gets and as I stated expanded Perlite is one of the best thermal insulators there is so if anything else being is used as an aggregate (high temperature rating is needed) will only transfer heat at a greater rate; you need to do your homework.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I'm curious. How did you conclude perlite and vermiculite was used? Manufacturer data? Scientific data? A hypothesis based on some sound observations? Guessing? I appreciate the debate/discussion here but all of a sudden, you started pounding the perlite drum out of the blue. I'd like to know how that tangent came about.

 

[Lee Roder]

I'd like to know how that tangent came about.

He's giving AMSEC the benefit of the doubt. Assuming AMSEC uses the best available composite thermal insulator, i.e. one composed of perlite, the question is how fast is heat flow into the safe.

 

[Keizer]

I don't even really know what point he's trying to make.

The point he's trying to make is to spread misinformation about AMSEC to try and tarnish their reputation.

Hey wait.....wasn't he getting mad at you Frank and accusing you of the same thing about Sturdy? Hmmmmm, sounds a little hypocritical to me.

 

[Keizer]

Hey look! AMSEC even puts drylite in the hinges!

 

[a1abdj]

Wow!-- what a breakdown, it seems like it is all down on paper--sturdy really did they homework---i see no responce to that--must be true

The guy that "put it all down on paper" just admitted in this thread that he was making unknown assumptions regarding his math.

I don't know if it "must be true".

He's giving AMSEC the benefit of the doubt. Assuming AMSEC uses the best available composite thermal insulator, i.e. one composed of perlite, the question is how fast is heat flow into the safe.

Is it the best? I have no idea. Does AMSEC use in in any of their safes? I have no idea. Do they use it in their BF safes? I have no idea.

All of these manufacturers use "proprietary" mixtures of materials to achieve their goals. In other words, they don't say what's in them. Short of performing an examination of the material, there's no way of knowing what's in it.

I know he hasn't examined the material, because he can't even differentiate between body putty and drylight in a photo. I posted a photo of the first version of drylight. It doesn't look anything like the photo of perlite that was posted.

As I have stated in previous threads, the smaller BF safes, built in an almost identical fashion as their gun safes, carry a UL fire rating. As such, we know that the insulation is capable of protecting against heat, as UL has the most stringent fire test that exposes safes to worst case scenarios.

Out of the thousands and thousands of safes that carry UL fire labels, nobody can point out ONE that uses ceramic insulation as its primary insulation. So this means one of two things: a) nobody has ever submitted a safe with ceramic insulation for testing, or b) safes with this insulation have been submitted and failed.

Ceramic insulations have been around for many years. There are many safes with UL fire ratings that are VERY expensive, so cost is certainly not a factor. I am making an assumptiong (and I admit it up front) that the ceramics don't perform as well as some think they do. If they did, they would certainly be found in more safes, and in safes with UL labels.

The point he's trying to make is to spread misinformation about AMSEC to try and tarnish their reputation.

AMSEC will be here shortly to correct his misinformation. Wait, they're too busy selling safes.

Hey wait.....wasn't he getting mad at you Frank and accusing you of the same thing about Sturdy? Hmmmmm, sounds a little hypocritical to me.

The difference was, he accused me of spreading misinformation when I didn't. He's actually doing it, and denying it.

I pointed this out earlier in this thread. It's the same tactic used by certain political parties.

Hey look! AMSEC even puts drylite in the hinges!

It's oooozing out the hole! Fireproof hinges....I hope they patented that!

Here's my rough sketch of what's shown in the "hole" picture. The black is steel, the red is weld, and the green is body putty. I should have made it a bit larger to make it easier to see, but you get the idea.

 

[btn]

You guys keep digging your "hole" deeper and deeper! And I'd like to thank you both for proving that everything I've said about you both is true.

The hinge example is beyond bogus. Any objective person can see very clearly, with their own two eyes, a hole about an inch or two down in the middle of the safe. In addition the torn steel above it extends beyond the weld top and bottom.

So keep denying it guys. In fact the more you deny it the more it proves what I've been saying all along.

 

[a1abdj]

The hinge example is beyond bogus. Any objective person can see very clearly, with their own two eyes, a hole about an inch or two down in the middle of the safe. In addition the torn steel above it extends beyond the weld top and bottom.

So keep denying it guys. In fact the more you deny it the more it proves what I've been saying all along.

That hole is clearly 5 feet across! ANY MORON CAN SEE IT!

Don't worry. I know exactly what I see, and I've already got a call in to the owner of the company that sold the damaged safe shown in those photos. Once I get his verification, we'll see who's proving what.

 

[Keizer]

I've already got a call in to the owner of the company that sold the damaged safe shown in those photos. Once I get his verification, we'll see who's proving what.

I'd like to do one better, and have the guy that bought it post up in this thread. Where is the original thread with the guy that purchased this safe. Maybe we could PM him to verify that the cosmetic damage to that safe is just that.....cosmetic.

Actually, if you look close at the pics, it looks like the safe fell on its face and slid down a hill. There are scratches all over the front of the door.

 

[a1abdj]

I'd like to do one better, and have the guy that bought it post up in this thread. Where is the original thread with the guy that purchased this safe. Maybe we could PM him to verify that the cosmetic damage to that safe is just that.....cosmetic.

I tried finding the thread and wasn't having much luck. Since I found the company that sold the safe, I figured that was the next best thing. I'm already confident that there were no holes in the safe since a) it doesn't look like there is, and b) no holes were mentioned as damage on the seller's description.

I'm just waiting for a call back.

 

[btn]

Yes Frank that hole is clearly an optical illusion. And yes the sky is green, let's get Kaiser to confirm it!

As for the guy who sold the safe he claimed in his ad that it was it cosmetic damage, why would he change his story now after he sold it. And even if he did why would I trust you to admit you're wrong when I doubt the thought that you could ever be wrong about anything is inconceivable to you.

The photographic evidence is more then clear and so is your lack of credability

 

[a1abdj]

so is your lack of credability

I suppose you can keep telling yourself that, but there's only two people here that feel this way. You (who may or may not be proven a liar here within the next 30 minutes), and our buddy the engineer, who's already admitted to running math on bogus assumptions.

 

[btn]

As for the guy who sold the safe he claimed in his ad that it was cosmetic damage, why would he change his story now after he sold it. And even if he did why would I trust you to admit you're wrong when I doubt the thought that you could ever be wrong about anything is inconceivable to you.

The photographic evidence is more then clear.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I'm the other guy in the safe business that hangs around on this site.

"You guys are killing me. Whats in that picture between the pic of the pearlite and the pic of the front of the safe??? Wow you two are simply amazing."

What's in the picture that's between the one of the perlite and the other of the front of the safe is a picture of the corner of the safe just above the door. There is cosmetic damage to the paint and the gesso, or putty, underneath. There certainly does not appear to be structural damage to the underlying steel. There is no penetrating hole. I have seen enough freight damage on safes to understand what's being shown

Somebody should be horribly embarrased when they realize how deep the hole is that they've dug. And that's the only hole where the AMSEC being depicted is concerned.

900F

 

[Keizer]

I have seen enough freight damage on safes to understand what's being shown

Right! And lack of experience, and lack of knowledge of how AMSEC finishes their safes, is making a few posters look like fools. I have personal dealings with the company that sold that safe. There is no way he would sell a safe with a hole in it. That would simply be bad for business for him, and AMSEC.

 

[btn]

CB900f does Graffunder make a UL listed TL-30 gun safe?

As for the picture the outer layer is clearly punctured and there is a hole. Unless the safe is covered by an inch or two of putty before the layer of 11 gauge, the steel has been torn away. Based on the picture frank posted it's 11 gauge on the outside shell followed by drylight followed by 14 gauge.

 

[a1abdj]

As for the picture the outer layer is clearly punctured and there is a hole.

The guy who sold the safe disagrees. Just got off the phone with him. He described the damage shown in the photo as a "crease". He verified that the steel remained intact, and that no hole was made through the steel.

After his explanation of the damage I went back and looked at the photo. The safe impacted on its face, hitting right at the top edge of the body. The crease he is referring to is not on top, but actually what you're seeing in an "arc" on the face of the upper door frame. The damage seen on the top of the safe is the chipped putty exposing the welded joint (as I had originally stated).

Unless the safe is covered by an inch or two of putty

Probably about 1/16" based on my observation of the photo.

So we've outed the engineer, and now we've outed you.

 

[CB900F]

BTN;

Graffunder builds to the U.L. letter system, ie, B,C, E, F, etc. So, they do not make a U.L. listed TL30 safe, gun or otherwise. However, an E rated unit will have a door with a 1.5" thick plate and the other 5 sides will be 1" plate backed by the insulation, and the inner layer of gauge steel.

As for the picture, either we aren't looking at the same picture, or you're drawing conclusions that aren't merited by the evidence shown.

900F

 

[a1abdj]

Details, Details. I figured I would add a measurement to this photo so that we can put some claims into perspective.

btn has said:

when people called into question why an Amsec would have this much damage from a fall during delivery.

Any objective person can see very clearly, with their own two eyes, a hole about an inch or two down in the middle of the safe

Yes Frank that hole is clearly an optical illusion

As for the picture the outer layer is clearly punctured and there is a hole. Unless the safe is covered by an inch or two of putty before the layer of 11 gauge, the steel has been torn away.

If anybody can find the hole please let me know. I could use help finding Waldo in a book I'm reading as well.

 

[Keizer]

Are those crickets I hear??

 

[btn]

That's what I like about you Frank, you're so predictable.

I told you what he was going to say before you even spoke to him. See my comments above.
And because a used safe salesman said what he said in his ad means nothing. To change his story now could only cause problems for him.

My opinion stands based on the picture and my recollection of you telling him to fill it with putty and paint it over.