Strong safe---where

[Jenrick]

Okay as amusing as this all is, I haven't scene the OP here in a while. No one has offered to send Frank to Sturdy at his usual rate, or to send a Sturdy to Frank and then pay him his usual rate to pop it. Until such time this is all a bit ridiculous. Reminds me of the caliber wars over in handguns, or the old "hate" threads that ran for a while. Lots of people going back and forth to no avail.

Frank has no incentive to tell all of you how he'd do it, as an LEO I appreciate him not doing so. Sturdy has no major incentive to actually have Frank do it, if it can be done (not commenting one way or the other). As both of he and Alyssa have already commented the Sturdy is a sturdy well built safe that features some good design elements. However NOTHING is burglar proof to someone with enough time, tools, or talent. A lot of people are circling the point rather then addressing it. I'd like to see a video of someone with a 1/2" plate and a normal 3' pry bar, showing the degree of flex possible with various fulcrum points, and various anchor points. I think that'd be much more instructive, then trying to lift 10K lbs.

Everyone has gotten hung up on the pry bar part, who cares? Most crooks don't carry any tools let a lone a pry bar (look up possession of burglary tools in your states penal code for why). If they're going to do it, their going to do it big, which means all sorts of interesting things, from the mundane to the very technical. Focusing on the pry bar, is sort of like getting into an argument about ambi-safeties on a 1911 in regards to fighting in Iraq during Fallujuh. There is a very minute chance that it is relevant.

In the end if Sturdy wants Frank to stop talking, send him a safe, hire a video crew and pay him to try to get in. If he can't you have an awesome video for your company, if he can hire him to pop a couple other safes and hope yours takes the longest.



-Jenrick

 

[adirondack]

I don't know where you're coming up with this stuff at. So you're saying you could lay that Sturdy door down flat, use it like a bridge that's supported on both sides of the door, and apply 30,000 pounds without the door flexing?

Well now we are talking about a different thing from a pry bar attack. And, of course the metal will flex, it's ductile that's why you see two ratings "Yield", the point it will flex to and still return to its starting form (elastic deformation) and "Ultimate Tensile" the point at which the metal can be stretched no further (plastic deformation) and it finally breaks.

I'm not looking to rip the door off. I'm not looking to shear the bolts. I'm not looking to get an opening through the door. I'm merely looking to flex it a few inches.

Anything you could possibly do to the safe will be well within the metal's yield strength and it will return to the position it started.

 

[a1abdj]

Yes. It seems to me that Sturdy usually comes on to this board to correct something you've said.

What have I said that required a correction?

Awesome video, Alyssa!

It was nice.

Sorry you guys had to ruin a nice pry bar to prove a1abdj is full of it.

Well they proved a few things, but didn't prove me wrong.

I was happy to hear that a whole 10,000 pound stack of 5/16" could flex with the pry bar beneath it. I'm assuming this means that a single sheet of it would flex too.

It proved that you can indeed tear up a pry bar. I've done it myself. I've even twisted and bent them by hand. I flattened out a bar by hand in Iowa a few weeks ago trying to yank a vault door out of a wall.

It still didn't prove anything about the maximum force one could apply. Their bar failed under the load. They need a bar that won't fail under that load.

It also hasn't proved how much force it would take to flex a Sturdy door. I gave them the idea of setting up a door and weighing it down with 10,000 pounds. That would be the perfect test to prove my point.

 

[a1abdj]

Well now we are talking about a different thing from a pry bar attack.

No we aren't. We are talking about applying pressure to the door in such a way that it flexes. It wouldn't matter if it was weight applied, a forklift lifting, or a pry bar prying.

Anything you could possibly do to the safe will be well within the metals yield strength and it will return to the position it started.

I don't know about that. The 1/4" plate door on that Winchester was pretty deformed.

Regardless, that's fine that it returns to it's normal position. I only need it to flex a few inches for a few minutes. It can return back to it's normal shape just in time for me to turn the handle and open the safe.

Maybe next week we can talk about how I can cut one in half using a circular saw in about a minute!

Sounds like everybody is starting to agree with me here. 5/16" steel, plus whatever angle they have behind it, will flex under load. That's all I've been saying all along, and all anybody who knows what they're doing to get into the safe.

 

[adirondack]

Regardless, that's fine that it returns to it's normal position. I only need it to flex a few inches for a few minutes. It can return back to it's normal shape just in time for me to turn the handle and open the safe.

We saw on Sturdy's Pry Bar video with 2 bolts cut and over 400 LBS of force applied at the end of a 5' pry bar that you still couldn't reach in. I guess you must have missed the point that Terry was trying to make.

 

[adirondack]

Everyone has gotten hung up on the pry bar part, who cares?

The reason is because someone (Frank) says he can open it with a pry bar and it's not possible. Sturdy designed their product specifically to prevent this type of attack which does a disservice to Sturdy and to someone looking for a reasonable priced gun safe that will meet that need which is what this tread is all about. Now power or cutting tools is a different story but then we are talking big bucks and heavy weight which he stated is also a concern.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

You can break through a cinder block bought from the hardware store supported at the very ends because it's made of cheap burnt coal cinders stuck together with low density and the material isn't supported at the center, where you're applying force. Heck, half the cinder blocks at the hardware store are already cracked from transport and people dropping them. Basic concrete is much stronger but both have poor tensile strength in comparison to other materials so any degree of flex will lead to cracking which is why man started sticking rods of steel through them for tensile strength

Cinder blocks aren't concrete, and concrete is a catch-all phrase for a class of materials that varies in composition and properties. Can you do the same chop demo with equal ease if you laid it down on a hard flat surface that won't flex? If the composition changed from a cheapo cinder block to actual concrete? Can you chop through an actual concrete block with even 20 gauge sheet metal laminated to either side providing tensile strength and energy dissipation from impacts? A simple material can be applied any number of ways and come out with a completely different set of properties.

I remember trying tae kwon do as a child. The instructor showed how strong a board of wood was before he was going to chop it. He demonstrated this fact by dropping it on the floor at chest level. The board split in two along the grain with a resounding thud. Now, if he could hammerfist his way through a piece of 8-ply baltic birch plywood board, instead of a piece of white pine, I would be impressed. An interesting tidbit...some early 20th century vault rooms for jewelers were often made of alternating layers of expanded metal mesh and plywood, and rated for burglary by the UL.

Actual security concrete is ridiculous. One of the posters earlier was ragging on concrete composites as some sort of cheap alternative. I've seen footage UL techs testing a composite safe with gas powered cutoff saws and power tools. I've seen footage of composite panels being shot at with small arms fire, C4 charges, 40mm HE, and multiple hits from an RPG-7. The materials you add to concrete to turn it resistant to attack is by no means cheap and requires specialized equipment so it doesn't float or settle when the composite sets.

While the BF series doesn't use something that high-end, I doubt it's concrete with a bag of pearlite stirred in from the garden store. Concrete itself is moisture bearing and retains it well on it's own. Safes that use concrete have it contained between two steel skins so it isn't going to evaporate away.

 

[Jenrick]

The reason is becomes someone (Frank) says he can open it with a pry bar and it's not possible. Sturdy designed their product specifically to prevent this type of attack which does a disservice to Sturdy and to someone looking for a reasonable priced gun safe that will meet that need which is what this tread is all about. Now power or cutting tools is a different story but then we are talking big bucks and heavy weight which he stated is also a concern.

I'd be careful on saying something is not possible, we all know it only takes a very small mistake in the math to ruin an otherwise fine theory. I'd also disagree that it's a disservice to Sturdy, they have gotten more publicity out of this thread then they'd have gotten by taking out a banner add. Frank hasn't said that there is another gun safe out there that would withstand a pry attack, he's actually been pretty complementary about Sturdy safes overall.

I'm with Frank about the video Aylssa posted, it really doesn't prove anything except that their pry bar failed under load. Frank's contention has been that he doesn't need to lever off the door, shear the bolts, or the locking plates. Merely that he needs to flex the door an inch or two away from the edge to be able to do whatever it is that he needs to do.

Again I'd like to see a video of someone with a 1/2" plate and a normal 3' pry bar, showing the degree of flex possible with various fulcrum points, and various anchor points. Let's see how much flex can be induced on a 1/2" plate. If more then an inch or two is possible, then a 5/16" plate is kind of a moot point right?

No one has argued that Frank can't pop the safe IF he can flex the door the several inches he needs. Not a one that I can find. I'm going to assume that we all agree that he can.

So that leaves 2 things that need to be tested:

1) Can a normal 3' pry bar flex 5/16" plate using something approaching realistic fulcrum and anchor distances at least 3"?

2) Is there a way to create space for a pry bar to fit into the body door gap of the safe?

The first is very easy to test, and if I had a workshop and piece of 5/16" plate, I'd do it myself. The answer based on my previous experience as a welder, is I believe it can. The second I haven't a clue, which is why I don't get paid to do this for a living.

As a note, the formula for a simple lever is: F = (W * X)/L. F the total force needed to overcome W the weight, X is the distance from the weight to fulcrum, and L is the length of the lever from the fulcrum to the end. The math for a 36" lever w/ a 1" fulcrum against 10,000 lbs, is about 286lbs.

-Jenrick

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Look at my post number #12 or #201---now i don't think a safe(sturdy or amsec) can be open in that manner---from what i learned so far on this site----am i wrong

 

[adirondack]

Look at my post number #12 or #201---now i don't think a safe(sturdy or amsec) can be open in that manner---from what i learned so far on this site----am i wrong

I can't speak for the AMSEC BF series safe but what we do know is 11ga metal won't stop a fire ax so you're depending a lot on their "Drylite" insulation to resist the force which since it also has to be a thermal barrier likely won't have sufficient strength to offer much resistance (it will add time though). Add tight tolerances, recessed door, strong bolt support, heavy framing on the door and don't get too hung up on whether there's an extra 1/16" of metal on the body. 8ga will resist a fire ax attack pretty well and 7ga will pretty much resist all but the 300LBS lumberjack gone bad.

 

[Keizer]

I will tell you what's a fact. That I can break through a 1.5 inch concrete block with my hand.

HAHA, so now we're breaking into safes with our bare hands? I would love to film you punching the side of an AMSEC so we could all watch it here in the forums. Talk about lack of logic, and a poor example.

That's why I don't buy into Franks theory about how an 11 gauge, or is it 12 gauge now, outer shell with a 1.5 inch concrete, pearlite or whatever followed with a 16 gauge inner shell will keep anyone out of that Amsec for more then a minute.

Well, since we have now moved away from the door of the AMSEC, and are talking about the walls, then lets go tit for tat. I could use a carbide hole saw and be inside a Sturdy safe within minutes too. Especially since they don't use drylite which would dull a hole saw real quick if it was used on an AMSEC.

As for alternative motives I feel the same about you.

If people actually took the time to read the posts that are presented here, you would see that I have stated a few times that a BF series AMSEC can be broke into as well. I'm not a fan boy of any one safe.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

This illustrated applet will allow anyone to plug in a few basic numbers with a first-order lever: http://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/levers/page_levers_1.htm

Developing 5 figures of force on a first-order lever isn't too difficult. A distance to fulcrum of 1/2-1", and a 36 or 48" halligan bar or wrecking bar, developing 10,000lbs isn't difficult to achieve with one man.

 

[DaveyG]

I cannot have a sturdy or BF series as they are a bit too heavy for where I need to get it (3rd floor) and the floor it will be placed on and how and where it needs to go are not negotiable that being said does anyone have suggestion or opinion on some smaller "safes", Gardall 5517, Liberty TF series has a smallish safe, and Centurion which I believe is made for Liberty. Again it should be in the range of 300 pounds and needs to be small enough to get up to a 3rd floor and no need for fireproofing. I have looked at all of these models and need to make a choice. Main objective is to slow down the average "smash & grab" type NOT a professional safe cracker with a torch, forklift and a truck with lift gate. I am wondering if any of these offer any more protection than the sheetmetal (Homak) type cabinets which I already have?

 

[skykid]

8ga will resist a fire ax attack pretty well and 7ga will pretty much resist all but the 300LBS lumberjack gone bad.

Bull
Apparently you have never used an axe

 

[a1abdj]

We saw on Sturdy's Pry Bar video with 2 bolts cut and over 400 LBS of force applied at the end of a 5' pry bar that you still couldn't reach in. I guess you must have missed the point that Terry was trying to make.

I don't know what point he's trying to make other than the safe is very strong at its strongest point, even if that strongest point is weakened slightly.

I haven't seen a video, from any manufacturer, seeing an attack on the weakest parts of the safe. Everybody tends to focus on the strongest feature, since that's really the selling point.

The reason is becomes someone (Frank) says he can open it with a pry bar and it's not possible. Sturdy designed their product specifically to prevent this type of attack which does a disservice to Sturdy and to someone looking for a reasonable priced gun safe that will meet that need which is what this tread is all about.

Parachutes were specifically designed to keep people from impacting the earth at 120 MPH. It does a disservice to parachute manufacturers to discuss the fact that they don't always stop people from hitting the ground.

This thread was about a safe that would stop a pry bar attack. The OP used the terms "slow" and "stop". Sturdy will certainly "slow" and attack. It will not "stop" a concentrated, dedicated attack.

Prybars and hammers are some of the only burglary tools that can actually be stopped via material thickness. All of the other tools and methods can only be slowed.

I can't speak for the AMSEC BF series safe but what we do know is 11ga metal won't stop a fire ax

You wouldn't happen to have a photo of this would you? I've been looking for something that shows a fire axe going through 11 gauge steel. I haven't had a chance to take my own picture yet.

which since it also has to be a thermal barrier likely won't have sufficient strength to offer much resistance (it will add time though).

Could you explain all of the composite burglary safes then? The "concrete" used as a thermal barrier in those safes are also the burglary barrier.

If people actually took the time to read the posts that are presented here, you would see that I have stated a few times

They read them alright. Then twist them around in their own head to the point that you "said" something you didn't say.

This illustrated applet will allow anyone to plug in a few basic numbers with a first-order lever: http://www.engineersedge.com/calcula...e_levers_1.htm

Developing 5 figures of force on a first-order lever isn't too difficult. A distance to fulcrum of 1/2-1", and a 36 or 48" halligan bar or wrecking bar, developing 10,000lbs isn't difficult to achieve with one man.

Weird. All of these people saying it's possible (and backing it up with math), and yet there's a video showing that it's not possible with a 4' or 5' bar with another 6' cheater put on it.

I'll admit that I knew it was possible only because I've generated those forces to lift vault doors with my bars. It's amazing how much one can know about things if they've actually seen it happen.

I cannot have a sturdy or BF series as they are a bit too heavy for where I need to get it (3rd floor) and the floor it will be placed on and how and where it needs to go are not negotiable that being said does anyone have suggestion or opinion on some smaller "safes", Gardall 5517, Liberty TF series has a smallish safe, and Centurion which I believe is made for Liberty. Again it should be in the range of 300 pounds and needs to be small enough to get up to a 3rd floor and no need for fireproofing. I have looked at all of these models and need to make a choice. Main objective is to slow down the average "smash & grab" type NOT a professional safe cracker with a torch, forklift and a truck with lift gate. I am wondering if any of these offer any more protection than the sheetmetal (Homak) type cabinets which I already have?

Hey! Watch me push some Chinese safes here!

Both of the safes you mentioned are Chinese, as are most of them in a similar weight/price range. Based on your objective, either safe should work well for you. When it comes to these types of choices, I tend to lean Liberty. Although I'm not Liberty's biggest fan, they do offer a good warranty that they back 100% in real life.

300 pounds is still a lot to move up a stairway. You may also want to consider a modular safe that comes in pieces and assembles at its final destination. A company named Dakota used to offer a smaller modular safe. You may want to Google them and see if they're still around.

 

[heeler]

DaveyG,I purchsed an older Amserican Security 5517 Highlander series gun safe several years ago and it weighs 275 pounds but it has a ten gauge body and a 1/4 inch plate steel door.
Of course when I purchased it I had no knowledge it was made in China until I was putting the insides together when I discovered the sticker.
Some online places still have this discontinued model of gun safe available.
It's a bit stronger than the others you listed and for about the same price.
Mine stores air these days and I am waiting for my lazy brother to come over and pick it up for his use.

 

[DaveyG]

Anyone know anything about Gardall? I have not heard anything about this company and happened to be at a locksmith for some other business and saw one (they also make some decent quality other safes, my opinion of course) so I looked them up and it seems they are only carried by locksmiths, any opinions either way on this company?

 

[a1abdj]

Anyone know anything about Gardall?

Gardall used to be a US based manufacturer of decent quality light commercial safes. They have pretty much turned to importing safes now, and applying their name to the door. I don't think they are as nice as they used to be, but it is still a decent quality safe.

Of course since they're importing them, you can usually find the same safe sold under a different, lessor known brand, for less money.

 

[btn]

Again an example of Frank treating everybody like they're stupid. For the 10th time you can't compare 1.5 inches of concrete to 1.5 feet!

There was a long discussion on another message board regarding concrete vaults. The consensus was they need to be minimum of 10 inches. Being encased by thin 11 gauge steel ain't going make much of a difference.

 

[a1abdj]

Again an example of Frank treating everybody like they're stupid. For the 10th time you can't compare 1.5 inches of concrete to 1.5 feet!

Again, what the hell are you talking about?

I haven't compared 1.5" to 18" anywhere.

There was a long discussion on another message board regarding concrete vaults. The consensus was they need to be minimum of 10 inches.

Who made that consensus? Professional vault installers?

What type of security are you looking to get? What type of door must the wall support?

Are you trying to compare a burglary resistant vault to a burglary resistant safe? If so, are you talking about cast in place construction (with concrete), or modular panels (with concrete)?

I'm confused as to where you're going with this.

Being encased by thin 11 gauge steel ain't going make much of a difference.

How thick of steel would make a difference? A difference against what? Prybars? Cutting torches? Explosives? Hacksaws? Plastic Sporks?

 

[btn]

Could you explain all of the composite burglary safes then? The "concrete" used as a thermal barrier in those safes are also the burglary barrier.

I'm sorry I thought you were the one who posted this, for the 10th time.

As for the rest of your post it's another example of the old bait and switch sales technique you know and love. Let's throw out a bunch of information that has nothing to do with what were talking about so that the readers attention will be taken off more of the misinformation you're peddling and being called on.

 

[DaveyG]

Gardall used to be a US based manufacturer of decent quality light commercial safes. They have pretty much turned to importing safes now, and applying their name to the door. I don't think they are as nice as they used to be, but it is still a decent quality safe.

Of course since they're importing them, you can usually find the same safe sold under a different, lessor known brand, for less money.

So in your opinion,
I can get a liberty TF series (5517 I believe) for 599.00 (no tax on these in CT) has a combo dial for the lock or the Gardall (again I think 5517) for 850.00 this has a keypad for entry or a Centrion CE12 for 397.00 w/combo dial. All 3 meet (pretty closely) my weight and size requirement but as you can see a huge difference in pricing. Would you say these are all the same quality as far as construction? You mentioned Liberty's warranty being an it better? Thanks to all for your advice it is greatly appreciated.

My mistake it was not a liberty TF 5517 but AMSEC for 599.00

 

[skykid]

Plastic Sporks

 

[skykid]

What bait and switch and what misinformation
I haven't seen a1abdj pushing sales on safes
on the other hand btn you said you were a salesman or at least I thought I read it
so I guess you would know all about bait and switch

 

[btn]

The people in my biz are too smart to fall for bait and switch whether you're selling something or just debating, as we are doing here.