Strong safe---where

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's "photographic proof" that that safe was able to be pried open. When you show me " photographic proof" of a Sturdy pried open I'll agree with you. I don't think you'll be able to find any.

I have a safe made by Liberty that has a 1/4 inch door and I could pry it open with a 6 inch pry bar. As we all have already agreed it's not only about thickness of the door.
 
When you show me " photographic proof" of a Sturdy pried open I'll agree with you. I don't think you'll be able to find any.

I've only seen two Sturdy safes face to face. The odds of be ever seeing one in person that is burglarized is practically zero.

I have however seen plenty of heavier built safes that have been pried open. Just about every gas station, and the majority of retail stores use b rate safes (1/2" doors with 1/4" bodies) and I have seen quite a few of these pried open.

As we all have already agreed it's not only about thickness of the door.

So what's it about? What is there on a Sturdy door that will allow it to support a 10,000 pound load half way across the door?

Let me ask it a different way. Do you think that door could be used as a ramp to load a piece of heavy equipment on a trailer? How much weight do you think that door would support mid span before it folded in half?

I don't even need it to fold, bend, stretch, or tear. I simply need it to flex a few inches.
 
Frank, you realize of course that we are going around in circles here. Everyone else must be bored out of their mind by now.

You had the engineer discusion with an engineer who disagreed with you. I disagree with you because I have seen videos that show it's near impossible to get into a safe using a pry bar if it has really tight tolerences. And I have seen a video showing a Sturdy repel a prybar attack even though the prybar was given a head start.
 
You had the engineer discusion with an engineer who disagreed with you.

He sure did disagree. Yet he never came up with any numbers.

I disagree with you because I have seen videos that show it's near impossible to get into a safe using a pry bar if it has really tight tolerences.

Tight tolerances slow the process, but unless the material is of sufficient thickness, that tight tolerance can be loosened up. I deal with vault doors with insanely thick slabs that are so tight that you can't even close them half way with a piece of paper stuck in the jamb. The doors are so tight, they require a compressions system just to force the door shut. Something you can't fit a dime between isn't tight. When that tightness is only made of 5/16" steel, it won't be tight for long.

And I have seen a video showing a Sturdy repel a prybar attack even though the prybar was given a head start.

It did repel that particular attack. I wouldn't be attacking it in the same fashion. Apples and oranges.

Let's start with some real numbers. If somebody wants to tell me what the actual measurements and thickness of the material is, I can get you some more exact numbers.

Let's say a safe door has a piece of 3" x 3" x 1/4" angle running along the top edge, and the door is 3' long. Mid door, the heaviest load that can safely be applied mid span is 1,290 pounds. So let's say 2,000 pounds will flex it a bit. See where I'm going?

We have some people saying it can't happen, and that's all the proof they offer. They say so, so it must be true.

I'm saying you can apply enough force to bend the door in such a way, that you can open the safe. That's as much as I'm going to say, since I'm not going to give away any ideas to would be thieves. Not only am I saying it's possible, but I've seen it. I've posted a photograph of steel bending under its own weight, and a photograph of a bent safe door of similar thickness. I have posted some actual numbers as it relates to the strength of steel that show that the forces required are less than the forces that can be achieved.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and just "know" it's not possible, then there's not much I can do for you.
 
Last edited:
I guess I should also add that with myself, along with another small guy (combined weight between the two of us around 300 pounds), could simply take a safe faster than I could pry into one. Anything up to 1,000 pounds wouldn't take us any longer than a couple of minutes to drag out of the first floor of a house and throw into the back of a pick up.

Just because prying is possible, doesn't mean it's the fastest. It's actually the most work, and one of the slowest types of attacks.
 
Fella's;

To those who don't believe that it can be done because a video (presumably produced & paid for by the manufacturer in question) shows it can't be done, I have some fine bottom land in Florida I'm sure you'll be interested in. J. jumpin' Kee-rist on a pogo stick! How naive can you get? "If I saw it on TV, it must be true".

900F
 
Yea, you know us New Yorkers we're pretty naive.

Perhaps I'm just not naive enough to believe someone that's only seen a safe twice, and never worked on it, can say how he can do something to it with such certainty. If he was more familiar with this particular safe and had to break into it during the coarse of his work then I would give his opinion more credence.

I would also like to add that I have seen two safe manufacturers come on this message board to correct misinformation a1abj was giving to people concerning their safes. Despite what he obviously thinks he doesn't know all.
 
Perhaps I'm just not naive enough to believe someone that's only seen a safe twice, and never worked on it, can say how he can do something to it with such certainty.

We aren't talking rocket science. We're talking about the ability to bend some steel here. I have already told you why I can. If you know I can't, why don't you explain the magic behind it. Tell me why the door won't bend, and put some numbers on it.

I keep hearing "you can't!, you can't!", but nobody has been able to list the specifics that would explain why somebody can't.

I've mentioned the Safe Fairy here before. That's the mythical creature that sprinkles magic dust on thin steel sheet that makes it impenetrable. I thought she only worked for Liberty, but she must be branching out now.

I would also like to add that I have seen two safe manufacturers come on this message board to correct misinformation a1abj was giving to people concerning their safes.

I don't recall that at all. Care to post some quotes?

Despite what he obviously thinks he doesn't know all.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know it all. I do know more than a number of manufacturers, especially gun safe manufacturers. I also know that I can flex a 5/16" steel door enough to open a safe.
 
We aren't talking rocket science. We're talking about the ability to bend some steel here. I have already told you why I can. If you know I can't, why don't you explain the magic behind it. Tell me why the door won't bend, and put some numbers on it.

An engineer, who knows numbers way better then both of us, already did.

I don't recall that at all. Care to post some quotes?

Most recently Brown Safe after you said their safes were not TL rated. And Alyssa from Sturdy has corrected your misinformation numerous times. If you really want me to repost them I will. However you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I also know that I can flex a 5/16" steel door enough to open a safe.

Again we had an engineer explain, over and over, why it's just not about 5/16" steel. Just because you want to ignore his extremely valid, and very easy to understand, points doesn't mean the rest of us should.
 
An engineer, who knows numbers way better then both of us, already did.

No, he didn't. I asked him repeatedly to show me some numbers to explain his position that the door could not be flexed.

I am the only one that has posted any numbers as it relates to the strength of steel.

Most recently Brown Safe after you said their safes were not TL rated.

I said:

Brown doesn't built UL rated safes to my knowledge.

Now I'm assuming you're a smart guy. What is quoted above is not what you're accusing me of saying.

I'm sure the same holds true for Sturdy. Alyssa and I may have some disagreements, but I do not say false things about her or her products. We have "clarified" some things, that is true.

Again we had an engineer explain, over and over, why it's just not about 5/16" steel. Just because you want to ignore his extremely valid, and very easy to understand, points doesn't mean the rest of us should.

Well I'm glad an engineer that earns a living doing something with furnaces knows more about breaking into safes than somebody that does it every day.

I've already explained why what he said would stop somebody would in fact not.
 
Last edited:
I like these because they have keyed locks(2) instead of a hard to use dial(give it a good hard spin ;) ) or a fragile keypad.

http://www.bearsafes.com/

Or better then nothing if transport is an issue:

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/


Some old prices:

A-I 60 H x 25 W x 20 D (400 lb) $1,089
ZA-II 60 H x 31 W x 25 D (600 lb) $1,238
ZA-II 72 H x 31 W x 25 D (700 lb) $1,607
ZA-III 60 H x 40 W x 30 D (825 lb) $1,700
ZA-III 72 H x 40 W x 30 D (925 lb) $2,120
 
We have "clarified" some things, that is true.

You can call it "clarified."

Well I'm glad an engineer that earns a living doing something with furnaces knows more about breaking into safes that somebody that does it every day.

When was the last time you broke into a Sturdy Safe?

Just as B rated safes are built to different standards so are gun safes. As you youself have said you're not all that familiar with many gun safes, it's a small part of your business. Next time you come across a Sturdy give it the once over, at least as much as the owner will let you. Then I'd give your opinion more credence.

Here is an interesting thread where both the "engineer" and Alyssa weighed in. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=488614&page=4

Talk about numbers! I don't think anyone can argue, after reading the post below, as well as the rest of the thread, that adirondack doesn't know his numbers.





Here’s why I think the Sturdy gun safe has the AMSEC BF beat though in the area of fire protection and since I can’t run an actual test and show the results I’m forced to give a mathematical model. Sorry this is long but I’m sure someone is going to want to know where the numbers are coming from.

Assume we have both of these gun safes in a house fire which is 1275F and continues for 90 minutes until the fire department puts the fire out (According to AMSEC’s website the BF series is rated for Mercury Class III fire protection of 1275°F for 90 minutes and designed to maintain an interior temperature of less than 350°F so we will use those numbers as the standard since the BF is UL listed.) For this example both safes will have the same dimensions: 2 meters tall, 1 meter wide and 1 meter deep (using SI units are easier to follow the numbers.)

We know from thermodynamics that the primary mode of heat transfer from the house fire to the interior of the gun safes will be by way of conduction. Fourier Law of Conduction (steady state) tells us that heat will flow from the high temperature region to the low temperature based on the following equation: Q=-kA (T2-T1)/L where q is the heat flow rate, k is the thermal conductivity coefficient of the material in question, A is the cross section area of the heat flow region, L in the depth of the material and T2-T1 is the delta difference in temperature between boundaries (exterior to interior).
The Sturdy safe’s materials are well defined on their website so it’s easy to build a model for their design and since we are just comparing the two safes on a one to one basis, we can find the heat transfer of sections and add them up for the total heat flow rate to the safe’s interior.

The standard Sturdy Safe with fire lining has four layers as seen from their website. For the sides and back of the safe there is an outer shell of 7ga steel, next layer is a 1 inch(0.0254m) 2300F rated ceramic wool blanket, next 1 inch (0.0254m) of 1000F fiber glass, then a 14ga steel inner liner. Because the materials in the safe are in contact with each other at their boundaries we can just add up their thermal resistances (similar to an electrical circuit with resistors in series) and determine the rate of heat flow Q. The coefficients (K) of materials in SI units used are: Steel (1%carbon) = 43 W/mC, Ceramic Wool = 0.06 W/mC, Fiber Glass = 0.04 W/mC. So substituting the appropriate thermal resistance coefficients and depth of material gives and the temperature difference between the 1275F house fire and average temperature of the safe’s interior to go from room temperature to 350F (in SI units though) gives the following:

Q(sides and back)=-1m^2(691C-100C)/(0.0048/43+0.0254/0.06 +0.0254/0.04+0.0019/43) = 549 W (per meter sq of surface area).

For the top and bottom of the Sturdy Safe there is an extra inch of Fiberglass insulation depth so that rate of heat transfer is: Q(top and bottom)= 349 W/m^2. For the door, there is thicker steel but the heat flow rate is basically the same as the top and bottom of the safe. So based on the dimensions of the safe we have the overall average heat flow rate would be:

Q (Overall Heat Flow Sturdy) = (4m^2)(349W/m^2)+(6m^2)(549W/m^2) = 4690Watts

For the AMSEC BF series safe there is a little reverse engineering needed since we don’t have specs on their “Drylight” concrete. The thing that we generally know about concrete is strength increases with density but the opposite is true for thermal insulation. Because the primary purpose of the insulation in the BF series safe is fire protection (and also based on comments made from those who have handled the material) Drylight is likely a Portland cement / Perlite mix aka Perlite Concrete). Since we know that AMSEC recently increased the density of the concrete mix and reduced the thickness of the shell of the BF from 10ga steel to 11ga steel, it is likely that the folks at AMSEC determined that they had room to increase the density of their concrete insulation without jeopardizing their UL fire rating. So based on that, my best guess is they were using a Portland cement to Perlite mix of 1:8 prior to the change but are now using 1:6. As reference, standard concrete has a thermal conductivity co-efficient K of 1.7 W/mC with a compressive strength around 3000PSI. Perlite concrete with a 1:6 mix has a K of 0.084 W/mC but a compressive strength of only 125PSI so there is a big tradeoff in strength to get the insulation properties.

As we know now from recent discussions, the body roof and floor of the BF series has three layers: an 11ga steel shell, around 2” of Drylight and another 14ga inner liner. The door has ½” of steel with 1” of Drylight for insulation. So doing a similar analysis as done above for the Sturdy safe shows that the overall average heat flow rate to the interior of the AMSEC BF series safe in a 1275F house fire would be:

Q (Overall Heat Flow BF Series) = 11,721Watts.

So based on this analysis, the AMSEC BF series safe transfers heat to the interior of the safe at a rate 2.5 times higher than the Sturdy Safe design. That would mean for the same house fire where an AMSEC BF series safe’s interior temperature reaches 350F the Sturdy safe would be around 185F. Also, since the AMSEC BF uses concrete with a significant mass as an insulating material, the insulation itself will hold heat and continue to transfer heat to the interior of the safe long after the fire ends and that’s even if the exterior had been cooled once. For the Sturdy Safe’s design, most of the mass is located on the steel shell with the light weight insulating material contributing a small percentage of mass and heat storing capacity of the safe so if you cool the exterior of the Sturdy safe after a fire, it won’t re-heat itself afterwards.

This is the longest comment I ever have made on a thread so I'd better stop but in my opinion and especially after doing this analysis, the Sturdy safe design is far superior to the AMSEC BF series in fire protection.
 
When was the last time you broke into a Sturdy Safe?

He has broken into safes that make the Sturdy look like a toy. He has already stated that earlier in the thread. This is like a marathon runner who can easily run 10 miles, yet you ask "Yeah, but when was the last time you ran one mile?" Your question has no common sense to it.
 
You can call it "clarified."

So you're admitting you were wrong about Brown huh? I didn't really say what you said that I had said.

Why don't you go ahead and quote the "misinformation" I was spreading about Sturdy. I'm waiting.

When was the last time you broke into a Sturdy Safe?

When was the last time you did? In fact, when was the last time you broke into any safe? I broke into three today.

I don't need to break into a safe to know it's weaknesses. I can look at one and tell. I have seen two of them face to face, and had the opportunity to give them a quick looking over. I've seen enough, as it relates to safes, that I can usually pick weaknesses out in matter of seconds.

Just as B rated safes are built to different standards so are gun safes. As you youself have said you're not all that familiar with many gun safes, it's a small part of your business. Next time you come across a Sturdy give it the once over, at least as much as the owner will let you. Then I'd give your opinion more credence.

I don't need your approval. I have repeatedly stated that Sturdy is a better gun safe than most. Doesn't change the fact that they can be broken into, including via a pry attack to the door.

Talk about numbers! I don't think anyone can argue, after reading the post below, as well as the rest of the thread, that adirondack doesn't know his numbers

One problem. He is running his numbers against an unknown. He has no idea what drylight is composed of, so he's assuming. Running his numbers against an assumption, he is making a claim. A claim that may or may not be true. That's what happens when you make things up.

As has also been mentioned, every major safe manufacturer tends to disagree with his position, since there's not one UL listed fire safe on the market (out of thousands) that use the ceramics he touts as their primary insulation. He must know something that they don't (even though they employ engineers of their own).

I'll also point out that none of those numbers have anything to do with the pry resistance of Sturdy's door.

You're not doing very well here.
 
Last edited:
He has broken into safes that make the Sturdy look like a toy.

Using a pry bar?

Why don't you go ahead and quote the "misinformation" I was spreading about Sturdy. I'm waiting.

I've posted one link already. If anyone else is interested they can do a search and see it wasn't the only time.

When was the last time you did? In fact, when was the last time you broke into any safe? I broke into three today.

And still found time to be on here all day arguing! Wow. Do they bring them to your office? Did you use a pry bar to break into them all?

I don't need your approval. I have repeatedly stated that Sturdy is a better gun safe than most. Doesn't change the fact that they can be broken into, including via a pry attack to the door.

And I don't need your approval to NOT believe you can break into them with a pry bar. Sorry you so offended by that. Personally I think you need to break into one or get over the fact that I don't believe you can do something you've admitted you've never done.

One problem. He is running his numbers against an unknown. He has no idea what drylight is composed of, so he's assuming. Running his numbers against an assumption, he is making a claim

"assumption!" Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!

Once again when was the last time you broke into a sturdy using a pry bar? Or even broke into one using anything? You're the one making assumptions.

'll also point out that none of those numbers have anything to do with the pry resistance of Sturdy's door.

I posted that because you called into question his ability to run the numbers. It's much better then yours or mine, clearly. Also to show how regardless of someone running the numbers you'll still ignore them, even when he did it a number of ways using several of the most likely materials that Amsec is using for fire protection.

You're not doing very well here.

Actually all your showing is that you're the resident master of the pissing match, as you have numerous times. The last man standing wins. That said I don't have the kind of job that allows me to be on here arguing with you all day in circles. Just as others with more important things to do have moved on I need to as well. Feel free to keep posting the same thing over and over again...
 
Feel free to keep posting the same thing over and over again...

You're already doing a fine job of that!

This is a simple case of you owning a Sturdy, and you can't handle the fact that someone can break into it with a pry bar. It ruins your sense of security that you don't want to let go of.

The fact you lowered yourself to childish insults speaks volumes about your credibility.
 
Just because I don't break into safes using a pry bar, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen all of the time. If you don't believe me, do a google search. You will find all sorts of stories about burglars prying open safes.

Any safe up to, and including a B rate unit is susceptible to a simple brute force attack. Period. Sometimes a design weakness makes it easier, but the truth is that the materials used in these safes simply aren't heavy enough to resist a concentrated attack.

If any manufacturer thinks I'm spreading "misinformation", they can run to one of their lawyers and sue me. I've been in this business since 1992, and have always said the same thing. Nobody has sued me yet. Maybe I'm assuming here, but it probably has something to do with me being right.

I've spoken the truth in this thread, and if it offends anybody's personal choice of safe, well that's really too bad. Most safes in homes won't even be touched during a burglary. Your odds of having a fire are also slim. You probably won't be in a major car accident today either, but that shouldn't stop you from peparing for the worst and wearing you seat belt.

Every safe mentioned in this thread is a suitable choice, dependent on your individual circumstances, to protect an average gun collection in your average residential setting.

However, if your situation demands that you use a safe that will offer real burglary resistance, including a concentrated pry bar attack, you need something heavier than most gun safe manufacturers offer.

I think I'm going to spend some time today working on my new line of safes. They are going to be made out of recycled appliance boxes. They may look like cardboard, feel like cardboard, and be light like cardboard, but I assure you they will keep out the most dedicated of theives. They will also have a high level of fire resistance, because I'll throw out some fancy terms like thermodynamics, and do some math involving completely fabricated numbers to prove it.

If anybody's interested in any of these, let me know.
 
Wow. Was that somebody from the High Road calling my business line and then called me an A**hole after asking what type of pry bar I would use to break into a Sturdy safe? I seriously doubt it was somebody from Sturdy.

I suppose you blocked your number because you didn't want me to know how to find you.

If I can figure out how to save the message off my Iphone and make a sound file out of it, I'll post it here for everybody to listen to. If anybody recognizes the voice, perhaps they would share his name.
 
Wow. Was that somebody from the High Road calling my business line and then called me an A**hole after asking what type of pry bar I would use to break into a Sturdy safe? I seriously doubt it was somebody from Sturdy.

Ha! Sounds like someone got their feelers hurt by the truth. I wouldn't sweat it.
 
I'm sorry to hear that Frank, it's totally uncalled for. Chances are it's someone just trying to be a smart a-s or perhaps an audition jacka-s 4.

There really is no excuse for that type of behavior.
 
It's not a big deal. They didn't make any threats.

Here's the new cardboard safe. Very high security. You'll notice the tolerances on the door are so tight that it requires a compression system to close it. Can't fit a dime in here either.

Taking orders now. Only available in brown.

Cardboard-sculptures-by-Chris-Gilmour-16.jpg
 
LOL, that is awesome. I would actually buy one of those! What do you want for that shipped down to Texas?

-Jenrick
 
Frank, you must be the most patient guy in the world. You've been doing these kinds of informational threads and discussions for years on THR and I'm amazed you've still got the patience for it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top