Frank, near as I can tell you are the 'expert' of pretty much everything.
I am an expert when it comes to protecting assets from fire and theft (as well as a few other things, but we're focusing on this area on these discussions).
My expertise is given away here on this forum for free, but often bought by everybody from regular Joes, to government agencies, to fortune 500 companies, to insurance companies, and anybody and everybody in between.
I am not an engineer. I don't know what a calculator or a computer says about how strong a safe is. What I do know is that I have worked with safes and vaults that have been attacked by hurricanes, fires, people, tractors, floods, and all other types of abusive circumstances. I know from these experiences how safes will hold up.
Although I really don't have time to spend arguing with you here because it is pointless as I have found from previous discussions, you have your opinion and the laws of Physics and Thermodynamics mean nothing to you.
Like I said, I'm not a scientist nor am I an engineer. I have no way of knowing if what you say represents the actual laws of Physics or Thermodynamics.
I do know that some of the things you say do not match my real life observations.
We have around 100 furnaces at our combined facilities (none use concrete for insulation because that would be dumb)
Houses don't use concrete for insulation because that would be dumb. Refrigerators don't use insulation because that would be dumb. Automobiles don't use concrete for insulation because that would be dumb.
We're not talking about these items. We're talking about safes. Safes are designed to do something that none of these other items are designed to do. Keep high temperatures out of a relatively small interior space.
Whereas "concrete" (which may or may not be the concrete most people think of when they hear the word) has been used for this task for well over 100 years by every major securitiy manufacturer that has been in the safe business.
They may not have built Wright's airplane, NASA's spacecraft, or the power company's power lines. They have however built the safes that every Airline, NASA, and the Electric Company use to protect their documents, and I can assure you they all use "concrete" to achieve that task.
So when I say the Sturdy Safe's fire protection is superior to the BF and show the math to prove it, I'm not saying it as a safe salesmen or an owner of the company; I'm saying it because that's what the calculations show (based on Drylight concrete being optimized for insulation E.g., Perlite Concrete).
"Based on Drylight concrete being optimized for insulation E.g., Perlite Concrete"
I take it you have analyzed an actual sample of the Drylight material in order to determine what it's made out of?
I'm also assuming that you have actually tested the two materials in question side by side to ensure that the real world performance of these materials matches your math?
I would assume that others have done this as well. This still makes me wonder why NOBODY other than a few gun safe manufacturers, use this material as the primary insulation on any of their UL rated products.
And, the reason 5/16" door has stronger torsional strength with a heavy boxed frame around the perimeter verses 1/2" plate without adequate support is because now you have bend the frame as well as the plate, why do you think they put I-beams under the decks of bridges? Frank you have a lot of good information to share but if you don't know the answer just say so, you'll get a lot more respect that way.
I know the answer, but I wanted to wait for your reply, and for a good reason.
There aren't many safes on the market that simply use a piece of plate steel with a lock thrown on it. The companies that use 1/4", 1/2" and 4" plate doors all "box" the perimeter of the door in some fashion. This is what holds the boltwork.
You're using your science smarts to make a point, but your point lies in some fantasy situation that doesn't exist in real life. You claim:
what's important about the door on the Sturdy is the framing around the perimeter and the support across the door which will make it far more resistant to bending and flexing than even a 1/2" plate door that doesn't have adequate support.
So name me a safe company that builds a similar sized safe as Sturdy, that has a 1/2" plate door without adequate support, where the Sturdy door will offer more strength.
I can only assume your list will be as long as the list of manufacturers using the "superior" ceramic insuations.
Again, I don't sell safes and I don't plan to. The initial question was: solid steel safe with enough protection for pry bar and ax protection. With that criteria in mind, Sturdy Safe is the cheapest and best option available from everything I have seen.
Underwriters Laboratories, insurance companies, the federal government, and most of us in the safe business disagree with you.
Sturdy safes are a great buy, and are built heavier than many of the other safes in their price range. They will also slow an axe and prybar attack, but they will not stop it. The AMSEC BF series will slow an axe and prybar attack, but will not stop it.
Insurance companies say that B rated safes are not suitable for the overnight storage of assets due to the risk of forced burglary, and these safes are solid 1/2" doors and 1/4" bodies.
Is a Sturdy suitable for storing most gun collections in a residential setting? Sure it is. But when somebody comes along and says they need a safe that will resist tools, they need something with some serious steel plate or serious "concrete" fill.
Additionally, Sturdy has real life people giving their testimony to their safes surviving actual: ax, pry bar, fires and in fact one of the customers had a professional lock smith open their safe and it proved to be more of a challenge than expected, here's the letter as shown from Sturdy's website:
Have you met these people? I see all sorts of testimony given by all sorts of manufacturers, and it really makes you wonder if a) these people exist, b) if what they say is true, and c) if they even know what they are describing.
Case in point:
I couldn't get in and had to call a locksmith. One of the relockers had been activated by the (burglars) trying to pound on the combination shaft. This guy breaks safes every day and it took him 4.5 hours to get in. He said it was the best gun safe he's ever opened. He also opens jewelry safes and much harder things to open. It was entertaining to watch the opening and repair. To repair it, we replaced the hardplate and put bearing steel in the holes of the door."
I would like this "safe tech's" name.
I also open some real safes. Safes designed to keep professional burglars out. I open many of those in far less than the 4.5 hours this guy needed to open a gun safe.
He either a) doesn't really open that many safes, b) was taking his time because he had nothing else better to do, c) was charging by the hour, or d) the customer's watch was broken.
It usually takes me longer to pull the tools out of the truck and put them back than it does to drill and open a gun safe.
im waiting for aia to respond with a figure----IM DOWN TO BF OR STURDY SO FAR
The BF will run in the low $2K range.
If you want an idea about a commercial B rate I can get you the numbers from the other quote we just had worked up. I won't be back in the office to get the exact numbers until Tuesday.
I do know that the pricing ranged from $2K to $3K depending on dimensions for a true B rate (1/4" solid plate body, 1/2" solid plate door) with a standard adjustable steel shelf interior.
