Strong safe---where

[a1abdj]

I chose a low number to do him a favor because it was a wager I knew he couldn't win and you don't need an engineering degree to figure that out.

Thank goodness I have you around to do me favors. I don't know what I'd do without an engineer looking out for me.

Since you're an engineer, why don't you lay out some numbers that prove your theory? Explain to us lay persons, in specific detail, why a person couldn't flex/stretch/bend some 5/16" plate with a pry bar? Then perhaps you can explain why I have seen 1/4" plate that has been. We all want to know what it is about that final 1/16" that all of a sudden makes it pry proof.

Many people don't even have the opportunity to see sheet/plate steel in its raw form. Many may be surprised to see what a 4x8 sheet of 5/16" looks like on a forklift. It's interesting how much it flexes and sags under its own weight. If I remember to take some photos at the fab shop, I'll post some.

Sturdy Safe says their safes can't be pried open and I agree.

Are you a good looking guy? I'm not asking because I'm interested. I just figure since you're their biggest fan, they may give you a shot at modeling with their safes on the website.

Since you like to "hear" things, what are you hearing after reading this?

How long exactly do you think it would take you to pry open our safe? Forever? A year? Given enough time, I'm sure you can file a hole in the body with a metal file, but do you see how ridiculous that is?

Sounds to me like the manufacturer is conceding that given enough time, their safe can be pried open. This is a good move on their part, because claiming that anything is impossible will get your butt sued off at the first opportunity.

So why do you think it's impossible, when the manufacturer even says something as simple as a metal file could open their safe?

Actually, I'm disappointed that I won't be able to see the video on Sturdy Safe's website of Frank frantically beating on their safe with a pry bar for 60 minutes; it would have been hilarious video.

I'm disappointed to. I have nothing else better to do than entertain you.

Their sales would double overnight when the video circulated around these forums.

I wonder if Liberty's sales doubled with that Security On Sale video came out?

Anyway, I'll let Sturdy defend themselves in the future which I hope they will do when any of these 'experts' makes a false claim about their products again.

I have quite a bit riding on my reputation. I don't make false claims. If I made a false claim about Sturdy, they are free to sue me. I won't be holding my breath.

Hell, you should sue me. I'm pretty sure I'm the one responsible for the twisted panties.

Well I think I understand now.

I doubt it.

I think some people just get easily offended. And, above and beyond that, I think that some peoples confidence in their safe (whatever the brand) diminishes after they hear the facts. Then, they feel the need to defend their purchase by arguing the facts.

I agree, although I have my doubts that he's a regular customer of theirs. Regular customers don't usually get this bent out of shape over facts.

I guarantee you, that I could break open one of those sturdy safes with a pry bar and sledge hammer within that hour time limit. I could do the same with my AMSEC. I of course would get to choose the pry bar and sledge. I would even film it and put it on you tube.

Oh boy! Hope you can afford to loose $1,500.

 

[ttheel]

I think the best gun safe is a good burglar alarm. I havent heard of to many criminal's hanging around once that horn goes to screaming. As I said in an earlier post though, I subscribe to the "layering" approach. With a good safe and a good burglar alarm(glass breaks, window contacts, motion detectors, door contacts, cell backup), I like my chances.

 

[adirondack]

Since you're an engineer, why don't you lay out some numbers that prove your theory? Explain to us lay persons, in specific detail, why a person couldn't flex/stretch/bend some 5/16" plate with a pry bar? Then perhaps you can explain why I have seen 1/4" plate that has been. We all want to know what it is about that final 1/16" that all of a sudden makes it pry proof.

It almost sounds like you want to have an intelligent conversation about this. Last time I ran the numbers on heat conduction through a fire lined Sturdy Safe verse a AMSEC BF it proved to be a waste of my time with you.

Well it's not that 5/16" with a heavy boxed in frame of C and L channel won't flex, it will as Terry shows in the video given that you can get something to get leverage against. Look at the size of the crowbar his workers were using and the mechanical advantage they had, even with 2 of the 4 bolts cut the door still didn't fail.

But before all of the above can happen, you need to get a prying device started. On all door seams of my own safe, I couldn't fit a dime between the door and body and the door is fully recessed into the safe about 1/2" so a pry bar attack could not get started without first creating something to pry against which would require a cutting device and now we are not talking about a pry bar attack alone.

 

[a1abdj]

Last time I ran the numbers on heat conduction through a fire lined Sturdy Safe verse a AMSEC BF it proved to be a waste of my time with you.

That's because you're running numbers based on what you thought, and not what you knew. Did you have a sample of AMSEC's material? Do you know it's actual composition?

I figured you could tell us a little more about steel, since that information is readily available and known as fact.

Well it's not that 5/16" with a heavy boxed in frame of C and L channel won't flex, it will as Terry shows in the video given that you can get something to get leverage against.

Hang on a second. It will flex, huh? Assuming you can get the leverage?

Look at the size of the crowbar his workers were using and the mechanical advantage they had, even with 2 of the 4 bolts cut the door still didn't fail.

This may come as a complete shock to you, but the door doesn't need to fail to open. I don't need to rip the door off to get it open. Sometimes just a few inches will do the trick. Their bolt design is much better than the Liberty shown on the Security On Sale video.

But before all of the above can happen, you need to get a prying device started. On all door seams of my own safe, I couldn't fit a dime between the door and body and the door is fully recessed into the safe about 1/2" so a pry bar attack could not get started without first creating something to pry against which would require a cutting device and now we are not talking about a pry bar attack alone.

I can assure you that it would not require a cutting device, although the use of one would certainly make it easier.

So it "sounds to me" like you admit the door well bend/stretch/flex if you can get enough leverage (which I can), and get it started through the thin door gap (which I can).

Assuming all of that, you think I could flex that door a few inches? That's all I would need to open it.

 

[skykid]

Keep pounding him with the facts a1abdj
I love when some smart ass engineer can't admit when he is wrong
He sounds like my brother who is an electrical engineer so smart with all his degrees but has little to no ability to admit when he's wrong

 

[btn]

Apologies in advance but I'm posting from a phone so it's hard for me to look at pages of previous posts. But A1abdj, didn't you say in a previous post that when prying a safe open it's the door frame that usually fails?

And Skykid sorry your brother is a pompous ***** but I wouldn't let cloud your feelings towards all engineers. And some of us may not agree with you in regards to who is being pompous here.

I for one appreciate reading real science regarding things like fire protection since so many claims made by safe manufacturers are just plain BS. In addition everyone, especially people who sell safes whether they are also a technician or not, have their own inherent bias's.

I find it especially interesting when one thinks we should discount what another technician says yet we should take his experience on face value, all the while he admits that he has never worked on a Sturdy Safe.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Hummmm----good point but he has came as close as any of us---I LEANING TOWARDS THE STURDY SAFE----COST/STEEL, I HAVE NOT SEEN NONE SO FAR IN THAT PRICE RANGE

 

[skykid]

Btn I apologies if I have offended you
You are right I shouldn't lump all engineers into one class
And yes at times I'm a Hugh pompous arse but aren't we all
But if I am buying a safe I I'll listen to a safe guy that is in the business of repairing and selling them and I don't just take the word of one guy but from several of them
Like I said I've be around long enough to know better although I sometimes forget
So when I do order my safe?(rsc) it most likely will be a sturdy
They seem well built and are reasonable priced

 

[BrettGrieve]

Long time reader, first time poster (here at least).

For what it's worth - I spent about a year researching safes (RSCs). I work hard for my money and wanted the most bang for my buck. I'm not an engineer, I'm not a safe tech, I'm a cop, so I know that some security is better than no security. I went to several safe "retailers" and looked at everything ranging from the low end Stack-On and Sentry safes up through the C+ rated Graffunders and some used TL-15 and TL-30's. With all that said, I ended up with a Sturdy for several reasons:

1) Made in America
2) Customization for a reasonable price
3) Most steel bang for your buck

The folks at Sturdy are good people, and I feel that I definitely got my moneys worth.

My observations of this ongoing "bitch session" are that a1abdj and adirondak both bring up valid points. The Study isn't a tool rated safe, and I think that given enough time, Frank could get into one using the tools he mentioned. From my personal experience (having investigated literally hundreds of burglaries over my career), most burglars aren't going to spend any appreciable amount of time trying to get into a safe, unless they know what they're after (i.e. what's in the safe). The risk of getting caught vs. potential reward is too great. In addition, your average burglar is a 16-30 year old male, just looking for a quick score. For the average homeowner, a well build RSC coupled with a loud alarm and pissed off big dog are all you'll ever need to keep your valuables secure. There are always exceptions, but I have yet to see one first hand. My $.02.

 

[waterhouse]

I just skimmed most of this. I just wanted to drop in and say thanks to our resident safe experts for their time and knowledge. I don't buy security boxes often enough to need to ask them much, but when I have asked questions over the years I've always gotten great advice, free of charge.

adirondack, I think for the wager to be fair and acceptable the cost incurred to take the deal needs to be taken into account. If you bet me $100 that I couldn't drink a gallon of milk in an hour, I could drive to the store, pay my $4, and we'd know in an hour who won the bet. If you bet me $2 that I couldn't do it, there is no way for me to win any money, because even if I win the bet I'm out the cash for the milk.

You are putting up $1500, but Frank would have to fly out to California and arrange a meeting with Sturdy to take the bet? Basically you are "hiring" him to get into your safe with a pry bar. He stated his hourly rate was $125, door to door. That means he pays for airfare, leaves his house, checks in at the airport, waits for his flight to arrive, flies to CA, waits for his pry bar to come through checked baggage, pays to rent a car, drives to Sturdy, spends an hour on the job, and then does the reverse trip home with the meter running.

That whole time he could be actually earning $125 an hour while never leaving his home town. Does it seem that the real reason he hasn't taken your bet may be because it simply isn't worth it?

I own a Sturdy safe too. It suits my needs well. I like it and I think it was a decent value compared to other steel boxes I looked at. I was pleased with the customer service from my first call until 2 days after installation when they called to make sure it met my expectations. I'd love to see an expert try to get into one at your expense, but I don't think it is fair to offer what you are offering and think that him not taking you up on your offer proves anything.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Do you have pictures of the sturdy safe

 

[adirondack]

BIGGBAY90,

Here's a link to Sturdy's website for the gun safe of the dimensions you asked for.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/model2723.htm

I would like to apologize to everyone for my part of the "bitch session" with A1abdj. This really had been building over a few months and if you read previous posts, I have tried to be as professional as possible with discussions but I guess I lost it because although I think 70% of what he says is very useful, the safe salesman starts to creep out in him and so does the misleading information. So for my part in all this, ... sorry. I also would like to apologize in advanced because I would like to respond to him further but this time with more references to my points.

 

[a1abdj]

From my personal experience (having investigated literally hundreds of burglaries over my career), most burglars aren't going to spend any appreciable amount of time trying to get into a safe, unless they know what they're after (i.e. what's in the safe). The risk of getting caught vs. potential reward is too great. In addition, your average burglar is a 16-30 year old male, just looking for a quick score. For the average homeowner, a well build RSC coupled with a loud alarm and pissed off big dog are all you'll ever need to keep your valuables secure. There are always exceptions, but I have yet to see one first hand. My $.02.

This is pretty much the same in my experience as far as safes in residential settings are concerned.

I have seen safes removed from homes, and broken into at homes, but it's pretty rare. We do see some safes that have been beaten on (usually with tools/equipment found in the home), and some of them tipped over to make the beating easier. Most of the time the safe isn't even touched.

If you bet me $2 that I couldn't do it, there is no way for me to win any money, because even if I win the bet I'm out the cash for the milk.

$3.00, final offer. And I want to see video.

I would like to apologize to everyone for my part of the "bitch session" with A1abdj

No reason to apologize. If it wasn't for you, much of this information wouldn't be coming to light.

although I think 70% of what he says is very useful, the safe salesman starts to creep out in him and so does the misleading information.

Approximately 5% (five percent) of my retail safe sales last year were gun safes. Nothing I say about gun safes has anything to do with the "salemen" inside of me.

I deal in real security, which is where my information and knowledge comes from. I don't know of many manufacturers that have the background I have. It's probably safe to say that I know more about boxes designed to keep people out than many of the people that build them. In fact, I can't think of many gun safe manufacturers that have much of a background in real safe construction. Most people who build gun safes have only built gun safes.

I also would like to apologize in advanced because I would like to respond to him further but this time with more references to my points.

I'm anxiously awaiting some serious calculations, and perhaps some photos if you have them.

And as promised, a quick comparison to show how flexible steel is. I'm sorry, I didn't have full 4x8 sheets available. There are two pieces of steel pulled out of the rack exactly five feet, the approximate height of most gun safe doors. The top piece is a 2.5" wide, 1/2" thick piece of hot rolled steel stock. The bottom piece is a 2.5" wide, 5/16" thick piece of hot rolled steel stock.



What is hard to see from the photo is that the 1/2" piece is also flexing downward under its own weight. Approximately 1". The difference between the 1/2" piece and the 5/16" piece is much more clear. The 5/16" piece is flexing approximately 5" further than the 1/2" piece.

Keep in mind, this is under its own weight. You can see how flexing it with a prybar is possible, when it already flexes this much with the leverage provided by its own mass.

Now some of you may be wondering why a "safe salesman" would have a big pile of steel like this. It's because I modify, restore, and build stuff like this:



and this:



and this:



When it comes to keeping bad guys out, I'm pretty experienced and knowledgeable as to what works and what doesn't.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Yep--i can see the flexing but isn't it more ridget in a box form(safe) with bolts

 

[CB900F]

Bigbay;

The rigidity of any given material is inherent in its molecular composition. I think what you're refering to would more properly be termed support or structural rigidity. This is what Frank was getting at when discussing the sidewall of an AMSEC BF series vs the normal RSC. The AMSEC is a laminate & therefore the outer layer of steel has a continuous layer of the hard drylite behind it, which has the continuous layer of inner steel behind it. Therefore there's support with another layer of support behind it, which makes it harder to flex the outer layer. A typical RSC has an outer layer of gauge sheet steel & then, typically, it's support is sheet rock, which typically is "supported" by shag carpet. It makes for a vast amount of difference in structural rigidity.

900F

 

[btn]

Just curious...why are the two pieces of steel completely different colors? And is there only 1 type of steel used in safes?

Also I'd love to hear from an engineer about the validity of this example. Examining the door of my Sturdy it's hard for me to imagine it flexing like this, especially just based on it's own weight.

 

[btn]

Also a1abdj how to you explain the Sturdy pry bar video which clearly shows that a pry bar is ineffective against their door? Is it doctored? Are they using some sort of trick?

 

[a1abdj]

Yep--i can see the flexing but isn't it more ridget in a box form(safe) with bolts

Absolutely. However, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. You can reinforce thin steel as much as you would like, but it won't be as strong as thicker steel.

You can't make a claim that your steel can't be forced to flex by hand, even if reinforced, when it already bends under its own weight. That's a silly argument. You could take that same 5/16" steel and bend it into a piece of angle iron, and it would be much more rigid. I could also still bend it. Take the same piece of steel and form it into a square tube. Much more rigid, but still bendable.

This is what Frank was getting at when discussing the sidewall of an AMSEC BF series vs the normal RSC. The AMSEC is a laminate & therefore the outer layer of steel has a continuous layer of the hard drylite behind it, which has the continuous layer of inner steel behind it. Therefore there's support with another layer of support behind it, which makes it harder to flex the outer layer. A typical RSC has an outer layer of gauge sheet steel & then, typically, it's support is sheet rock, which typically is "supported" by shag carpet. It makes for a vast amount of difference in structural rigidity.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when speaking of piercing steel. Just like bending the metal to make it more rigid increases its resistance to prying, placing something behind the metal to make it rigid increases its resistance to tearing/puncture. Bending and tearing steel are the basis of a true brute force attack on a safe. The more rigid the structure, the more resistant it will be to a brute force attempt.

Just curious...why are the two pieces of steel completely different colors?

The 1/2" piece is older, and has some surface rust forming. The 5/16" piece is new and shiney.

And is there only 1 type of steel used in safes?

There are all sorts of materials used in safe construction, including a variety of steels, alloys, and other miscellaneous metals such as copper.

Most gun safes are using basic A36 steel, not counting the hard plate installed behind the lock.

Examining the door of my Sturdy it's hard for me to imagine it flexing like this, especially just based on it's own weight.

If you removed all of the bracing welded behind the door slab, to where it was just the sheet of 5/16" steel, it would bend exactly like the piece shown in the photo. The addition of the bracing stiffens the door to the point where it won't flex on its own, and shouldn't flex by hand pressure.

Many lighter safes are 12 gauge steel wrapped around a piece of gypsum. Even though the doors are braced, it is usually done lightly as well. Go up to one of these safes and place your knee against the opening edge of the door while putting your hand on the top opening edge. Push with your knee and pull with your hand, and watch the door. It is amazing how little pressure it takes to flex some of these doors.

Also a1abdj how to you explain the Sturdy pry bar video which clearly shows that a pry bar is ineffective against their door? Is it doctored? Are they using some sort of trick?

I don't think they're using any tricks at all. They even weakened the door to show how strong it really is. However, they are only attacking it in a limited fashion. I wouldn't go after it the same way.

You've heard the saying "There's more than one way to skin a cat". Around the shop we use the phrase "There's more than one way to pop a box".

There are many videos on youtube that show manufacturers prying on their safes. The fashion in which they do so is to demonstrate the strongest part of the safe's defenses. I would focus on the weakest.

 

[Keizer]

I don't think they're using any tricks at all.

The only trick I see, is Terry using alot of unneeded body language during his motions for a more dramatic display.

A simple sharp steel wedge and a sledge hammer, and that door gap that you can't fit a dime in between would give up like a scared rabbit. Simple tools that any crook could easily carry into a house.

 

[btn]

Have you seen the Pendleton safe video on YouTube where 6 guys try to get into one of their safes with wedges, pry bars, sledge
hammers, pick axe and wood splitter. The safe is 12 gauge with a 1/4 inch door. They were not able to get in. Explain that to me?

 

[a1abdj]

The safe is 12 gauge with a 1/4 inch door. They were not able to get in. Explain that to me?

Magic

12 gauge is only 1/10". You're not going to get through it with one swing, but it's not going to take you all day either. The safe being round does add some rigidity that wouldn't be found in a square bodied safe.

Why aren't any of these gun safe manufacturers showing how well their safes hold up to saws, drills, and other common hand tools? Heck, a cordless powertool is easier to walk around with than a 6' prybar.

 

[btn]

Well Keiser thinks that with a"wedge and a sledgehammer" getting into a Sturdy Safe would be a piece if cake. Well those 6 guys, a few of whom were pretty large, had no luck with a 12 gauge safe with tight tolerances. I would like keiser to explain to me what he would do differently?

 

[Lee Roder]

The rigidity of any given material is inherent in its molecular composition.

to a point, but it is much more determined by the material's form, e.g. an I-beam is far more rigid than a thin cylindrical rod of the same weight of material.

 

[adirondack]

Wow so much discussion on this, I got to catch up later.

to a point, but it is much more determined by the material's form, e.g. an I-beam is far more rigid than a thin cylindrical rod of the same weight of material.

Absolutely Lee Roder!

A simple sharp steel wedge and a sledge hammer, and that door gap that you can't fit a dime in between would give up like a scared rabbit. Simple tools that any crook could easily carry into a house.

Keizer,

The gap between the door isn't the issue although it's a pretty big one. The real issue is how are you going to generate a tension well in excess of 10,000 LBS as the fork truck video shows. The door frame, welds, bolts, linkages everything made it through that test and the safe still functioned, it did look like it was a little more difficult to turn the handle so a bolt may have been slightly bent; however, the tension was applied at the worst possible place it could be so Terry really wasn't even being fair to himself.

Frank,

I saw your comment on the flat stock flexing. Of course it would, and so too would the 1/2" flat plate stock used in your Chinese safe if it didn't have the heavy 3/16" L channel and U channel that's framed under the Sturdy Safe door.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Well i am going the put a1abdj to the test(he said that WE CAN flex a 12ga door on a safe) i will check it out in about 20 minutes---we will see---I WILL BE CHECKING A LIBERTY CENTURION