Strong safe---where

[a1abdj]

Now I have to go there too? Sturdy has to supervise? They have to agree?

Your list of requirements keeps getting bigger and bigger. Do you tape a list of reqirements to your safe that potential burglars have to follow while robbing you?

You're also going to have to come up with some more money. So far you're not even going to cover my normal charge of $125 an hour, shop to shop (clock runs 24 hours), plus expenses.

 

[btn]

Chances are good that if your bank was built within the last few years, it has a vault door wrapped in 10/11/12 gauge stainless steel. Think a fire axe will go through it?

The 11 or 12 gauge yes. The foot and a half of concrete after that, no. I can go through 1.5 inch of concrete, which is what we are discussing here, with my hand, although I imagine the 16 gauge on the other side would make that more diffcult. I don't think it would make it much more difficult for a fire axe.

 

[a1abdj]

The 11 or 12 gauge yes. The foot and a half of concrete after that, no. I can go through 1.5 inch of concrete, which is what we are discussing here, with my hand, although I imagine the 16 gauge on the other side would make that more diffcult. I don't think it would make it much more difficult for a fire axe.

Tools like hammers and axes do their best work when the metal is allowed to flex. The faster the metal flexes, the faster it will tear.

Taking your same material, and supporting it on a frame off the floor, it will cut faster than if it was sitting flat on the concrete floor. This is why thicker materials don't tear when beating them with a hammer or axe. They don't tear because they won't flex.

Taking two safes using the same 11 gauge outer skin, say the Liberty and the AMSEC. The Liberty's skin will tear faster as there's nothing to support it. The AMSEC has the concrete backing (in addition to the inner steel liner), which will take longer to breach.

Since many of the Liberties and the AMSEC are in the same price range, you're getting a better buy with the AMSEC.

Of course if you really want to keep somebody with an axe, hammers, pry bars, torches, plasma cutters, drills, porta powers, etc. out, then you need a real safe, and not a gun safe.

There tend to be two different discussions when it comes to safes. There are "best safes for the job", and "best safes for the price". The two aren't always related.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Oh wow---IF ADIRONDACK -- stands behind STURDY product like that it has to be great.WHO IS ADIRONDACK

 

[adirondack]

Now I have to go there too? Sturdy has to supervise? They have to agree?

Your list of requirements keeps getting bigger and bigger. Do you tape a list of reqirements to your safe that potential burglars have to follow while robbing you?

You're also going to have to come up with some more money. So far you're not even going to cover my normal charge of $125 an hour, shop to shop (clock runs 24 hours), plus expenses.

You don't sound so confident now. Okay, let's make it $1500. The list is the same and based on what you have told all of us you can do.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

A1abdj do you believe that its possible that you can get into a sturdy safe with a crowbar or have you seen it in your field of work---just wondering

 

[a1abdj]

The list is the same and based on what you have told all of us you can do.

No it's not. I said I could get into a Sturdy using a pry bar. I didn't state any other conditions, restraints, etc. Feel free to go back through the thread and quote my claims.

You don't sound so confident now. Okay, let's make it $1500.

It sounds more and more like you're wanting me to teach a manufacturer what some of their weaknesses and strengths are. That's going to cost a bit more than $1500 (which still wouldn't even cover my normal hourly rate).

Oh wow---IF ADIRONDACK -- stands behind STURDY product like that it has to be great.WHO IS ADIRONDACK

That's a good question. I thought he was an engineer that did something with commercial furnaces of some sort. Now he's a security expert.

A1abdj do you believe that its possible that you can get into a sturdy safe with a crowbar or have you seen it in your field of work---

There are not very many Sturdy safes out in the field compared to the number of safes as a whole. I have only seen two Sturdy safes face to face.

It would take some effort, but you could get into a Sturdy using a pry bar if you knew what you were doing. You could get into most gun safes with a pry bar if you were so inclined. I make this claim because I have seen safes of heavier construction pried open. I have seen B rates pried (1/4" bodies, 1/2" doors), but never anything heavier (pried by hand).

The whole prying discussion is only valid when discussing a burglary attempt by the most primitive of burglars. Prying a safe can be a lot of work, and it usually takes some amount of time. Success is usually dependant on trial and error as opposed to previous experience.

There are plenty of faster ways to open a gun safe that involve a lot less effort.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Ok---thanks for answer---do that go for the bf safes also---help---and would the hs stop a crowbar attack

 

[a1abdj]

do that go for the bf safes also

Absolutely. Although the Sturdy and BF are built better than most of the other gun safes on the market, they are still light weights as far as safe construction goes.

The HS series would pretty much thwart any attack made with common hand tools. Once you get to heavy construction, there's not much a hammer or prybar is going to do other than scratch the paint.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Great----do you also offer used safe 60h--20d--20 to 26w or new---shipped to nyc

 

[btn]

Now he's a security expert.

99% of "security experts" on the internet know less then the average person who is willing to do some research before he buys a safe. Look at all the ridiculous video's on youtube. Nothing against you but I wouldn't want to be lumped in with that bunch!

 

[BIGGBAY90]

I did some research but as you can see all manufacture will say that they are the best---thats why i would like to go by first hand experience or someone who work/repairs safe

 

[adirondack]

No it's not. I said I could get into a Sturdy using a pry bar. I didn't state any other conditions, restraints, etc. Feel free to go back through the thread and quote my claims.

I think it's pretty clear what has been said. You said you can get into a Sturdy Safe using a pry bar. That's what the bet is ... getting into the Sturdy Safe with a pry bar. That doesn't mean, a pry bar plus a circular saw, pry bar plus a torch, pry bar plus a drill, a pry bar plus a file, not even a pry bar plus a fire ax because that is a separate item in itself which alone I don't think you can get into the safe with within an hour time frame. Also, this doesn't mean that you can try to figure out the combination either because I do know with this class of lock it is possible to do if you are really really good which I doubt you are. It is opening the safe with a pry bar as you have said many times on this thread alone.

(Adirondack)
You don't sound so confident now. Okay, let's make it $1500.

(Frank)
It sounds more and more like you're wanting me to teach a manufacturer what some of their weaknesses and strengths are. That's going to cost a bit more than $1500 (which still wouldn't even cover my normal hourly rate).

You're going to teach Terry over at Sturdy Safe how to build safes ... that's rich. Hey, why don't you show up with some of that Drylight concrete material and show them all about fire protection too. Maybe you can impress them by showing them how long you can hold on to some Drylight while they have a torch heating up the other side of it.

I guess what this is all about is someone running his mouth and not expecting someone to call him on it. Well I am, I am because I tired of being condescended to by you in areas that I know you are not qualified to have an opinion. I'm also offended as I'm sure the people over at Sturdy Safe are by you stating that they are fabricating statements on their website. And in case you forgot, here it is:

(Adirondack)
Additionally, Sturdy has real life people giving their testimony to their safes surviving actual: ax, pry bar, fires and in fact one of the customers had a professional lock smith open their safe and it proved to be more of a challenge than expected, here's the letter as shown from Sturdy's website:
(Frank)
Have you met these people? I see all sorts of testimony given by all sorts of manufacturers, and it really makes you wonder if a) these people exist, b) if what they say is true, and c) if they even know what they are describing.

Sounds to me, you just said they made up the statement which would mean they are lying.

So based on all the above, my bet stands with you as has been stated previously, $1500 to open a Sturdy Safe with a pry bar only. I'd think Sturdy might want to get in on this as well to help make it worth your while but I can't speak for them. Also, as previously stated, if the safe isn't opened by you Frank, I'll use the money to buy an item from Sturdy.

 

[a1abdj]

I think it's pretty clear what has been said. You said you can get into a Sturdy Safe using a pry bar.

Yes. It's clear I said that. I can get into a Sturdy safe with a pry bar. I can get into all sorts of safes with a pry bar, including safes that I sell. Why the hard on for Sturdy?

I don't think you can get into the safe with within an hour time frame.

You're free to think whatever you would like. What you think has nothing to do with what I have said.

Also, this doesn't mean that you can try to figure out the combination either because I do know with this class of lock it is possible to do if you are really really good which I doubt you are.

Oh no! Sounds like a double dog dare. I'm trying to recall my time in third grade to determine whether or not I'm supposed to prove you wrong at this point.

What you are referring to is lock manipulation. This is where one determines the combination the safe by using some clues given off by the lock, and a bit of math. Some safe techs specialize in manipulation, others only use the basic knowledge as part of basic lock diagnostics. There are guys that can open a standard group 2 lock (like that used on the Sturdy) in just a few minutes. I'm not one of those guys. I could drill the Sturdy faster than I could manipulate it.

You're going to teach Terry over at Sturdy Safe how to build safes ... that's rich.

I'm confident I could. This is no way reflects poorly on Terry. He has a number of years of experience in the steel fabrication industry, and builds a line of gun safes. That is a very limited, and very small portion of the safe business. While he may have some knowledge of his competitors' safes, and intimate knowledge of his, I have a wide array of knowledge as it extends to the rest of the industry.

This isn't limited to Terry either. AMSEC is one of the largest safe manufacturers in the country, and yet they only know about AMSEC products. I could call them and ask them about a Diebold, and they would have no idea other than perhaps recognizing the name.

Hey, why don't you show up with some of that Drylight concrete material and show them all about fire protection too.

UL has already done that for me. Drylight is currently used in safes that carry UL fire ratings. It's proven to work under the harshest of tests. Nobody can show me a safe with a UL rating that uses ceramics as its primary insulation, so I can only assume that there's a good reason for that.

Maybe you can impress them by showing them how long you can hold on to some Drylight while they have a torch heating up the other side of it.

According to UL, it can be exposed to a temperature of 1,700 degrees while maintaining an internal temperature of less than 350 degrees for an hour.

I guess what this is all about is someone running his mouth and not expecting someone to call him on it.

Well I speak from what I have experienced. You're speaking from what you think. If anybody is "running their mouth", it's you.

Well I am, I am because I tired of being condescended to by you in areas that I know you are not qualified to have an opinion.

First, just about everything I have to say about safes is based on facts, not opinion. With that said, you can't be serious. I'm not qualified to have an opinion as it relates to materials used in safe construction? How a safe is designed? Really?

I'm tired of some of the information floating around out there that leads consumers to believe they are buying a product capable of performing a task which it will not.

I'm also offended as I'm sure the people over at Sturdy Safe are by you stating that they are fabricating statements on their website. And in case you forgot, here it is:

Why are you so offended? Are you an employee? An owner? An investor?

I also appreciate the quote. Please point out where in that quote where I stated that Sturdy was fabricating statements. I think you're panties are in such a twist that it's cutting off the blood circulation to your brain. I'm not one to make personal attacks, but don't accuse me of saying things that I didn't say.

Sounds to me, you just said they made up the statement which would mean they are lying.

Well you didn't hear me say anything, so it couldn't have sounded like anything. You read what I typed, and even quoted it above, but nowhere does it say that they made up the statement.

So based on all the above, my bet stands with you as has been stated previously, $1500 to open a Sturdy Safe with a pry bar only.

I better let you keep your money. I don't know what it cost to have twisted panties surgically removed due to their excessive tightness, but the money would better be applied towards that procedure.

I'd think Sturdy might want to get in on this as well to help make it worth your while but I can't speak for them. Also, as previously stated, if the safe isn't opened by you Frank, I'll use the money to buy an item from Sturdy.

Why wouldn't you buy one anyway? They're a good gun safe. You don't need to wait for me to pry one open.

I don't want to speak for Sturdy either, but if I were them, I'd ask you to stop talking about my company. As entertaining and educational as it is for everybody, you're really focusing a lot of attention on them that's better focused on some of the other companies out there.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

If a1abdj says that he seen a safe with i/2 inch door and 1/4 inch body pryed open (i wish he said in what time period) and he said that even the bf can be pryed open (do he mean bolted down or not) and he is a locksmith (IS HE SAYING THAT STURDY AND THE BF ARE ALMOST THE SAME)PRY RESISTANCE........is adirondack a locksmith or a safe builder--are you adirondack talking from experince---strudy safe looks to be strong and i doubt in just an hour a crowbar can open it--- but im just guessing-----a1adbj (need to prove his charge)---i like to see that---but i hope you guys do every in peace and educational for us all

 

[adirondack]

I better let you keep your money. I don't know what it cost to have twisted panties surgically removed due to their excessive tightness, but the money would better be applied towards that procedure.

So once again, after the typical childish long winded response from you, I see that you are now admitting you can't do it. But the offer stands should you change you mind.

 

[a1abdj]

If a1abdj says that he seen a safe with i/2 inch door and 1/4 inch body pryed open (i wish he said in what time period)

I have seen several safes pried open. Probably well into the hundreds if you count photos and stories shared between those of us in the business.

As far as time periods go, that depends. Most of the B rate safes I have seen pried open are depository type safes found in businesses. They are smaller than a gun safe, and tend to be a bit more rigid due to the smaller structure. I wasn't there running a stop watch, but most of the them would have probably run in the 1 hour to 4 hour range.

Remember, the guys that pry safes are the cavemen of the safe crackers. Most have no idea what they're doing and will beat and pry on a safe until it gives up, or they do. I have seen plenty of unsuccessful attacks as well. I recently repaired a TL-15 at a local restaurant that was attacked using a sledge hammer, sawsall, and other assorted hand tools. The police guessed they were working on it for four hours, and aside from breaking the handle, trying to cut the hinges, and scratching the paint, they had no luck.

So once again, after the typical childish long winded response from you, I see that you are now admitting you can't do it. But the offer stands should you change you mind.

There you go "hearing" things I never said again.

a1abdj,
I always get a laugh outta you!!!!!!!!!!

I'm glad I can amuse you. Do you think I'm funny enough to get my own reality show? I've always wanted to be on TV.

You said in one of your last posts , you were trying to recall something about being in third grade. Did you ever get beyond third?????????????

Doesn't sound like it.

All the way to college, but K-12 was public schooling. That may have something to do with it. Of course I already had a few businesses going (including the safe company) when I was in high school, so I had a bit of a head start when compared to many others.

 

[skykid]

a1abdj I double triple quadruple to infinity and beyond dare you to pry one open
Look at the facts people one guy is an experienced safe Tech
the other guy is an engineer at an aluminum plant
one guy works with safes everyday the other guy well he has a masters degree
in engineering of what he didn't say or I missed what his degree is in
So after being on this planet for 50+ years I would listen to the guy who been
working with safes over an engineer who work at an aluminum plant as far as safes go
I'll listen to the engineer if he's talking about soda cans
I'm also in the market for a rsc or gun safe as most are called
I can't afford a $10000.00+ safe at this time
so i"ll probably go for a sturdy only because I don't need fire protection
But I still haven't made up my mind yet
and from what a1abdj says sturdy is a decent "gun safe"

 

[FAS1]

I think the information here is good to sort thru some of the claims by manufacturers and also by people that might have a bias. I always find something useful and with a little research on your own you can make an informed decision on what product is the best for you and your price range.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Somebody ought to take this to Mythbusters. That way Frank quite properly gets paid for his time & trouble. Other people get to have their curiosity satisfied.

Here's the thing, I don't know what Frank charges an hour for safe work, but I do know that $1,500.00 probably won't cover his travel costs. Then there's the matter of who's supplying the Sturdy, and the time it takes to either do it or don't. He can make money from paying customers, or he can satisfy an internet gas-fest. That's a no contest choice in today's world of business. However, it would seem that some people either can't, or won't, understand that.

So, If it just has to be done, negotiate the fee, knowing that it's quite properly going to be hefty. In fact, if you aren't in the St.L. area, I doubt $1,500.00 is going to make a decent down payment. Otherwise, as I first suggested, go to a reality show & see if they're interested enough to pay the freight if you aren't.

As for the idea that Frank isn't in the business, I know he is. He's in a major metropolitan area & I'm in the middle of Outer Montana. He sees a lot more than I do, and I'm not a neophyte at the safe game.

900F

 

[BIGGBAY90]

The way i see it is---he who works with safes (repairs/fix/open- etc) is the one who knows------no salesmen..no pitchman at all will know THE facts....why do people argue with the master of trade.
QUESTION----ONLY PROS ANSWER---IS GRAFFUNDER ONE OF THE BEST--CAN I GET AROUND 60H BY 24W BY 20D FOR AROUND $4000---HELP

 

[btn]

No, you can't get a Graffunder for $4000. And you can believe what ever you want or who ever you want, it's your money. As a alternative to Graffunder you may want to consider Brown Safes, similar but a little cheaper.

 

[adirondack]

Here's the thing, I don't know what Frank charges an hour for safe work, but I do know that $1,500.00 probably won't cover his travel costs. Then there's the matter of who's supplying the Sturdy, and the time it takes to either do it or don't. He can make money from paying customers, or he can satisfy an internet gas-fest. That's a no contest choice in today's world of business. However, it would seem that some people either can't, or won't, understand that.

So what would have been enough, 3000, 5000? I chose a low number to do him a favor because it was a wager I knew he couldn't win and you don't need an engineering degree to figure that out.

Sturdy Safe says their safes can't be pried open and I agree. Actually, I'm disappointed that I won't be able to see the video on Sturdy Safe's website of Frank frantically beating on their safe with a pry bar for 60 minutes; it would have been hilarious video. I can see the caption now "Watch Safe 'Expert' Try to Break into our Safes with a Pry Bar" Their sales would double overnight when the video circulated around these forums. Anyway, I'll let Sturdy defend themselves in the future which I hope they will do when any of these 'experts' makes a false claim about their products again.

Funny, one of the first threads I read on the forum after about 8 years away from here I saw Cisco arguing about gun safes. I thought wow what's that guy's problem? Well I think I understand now.

 

[Keizer]

I think some people just get easily offended. And, above and beyond that, I think that some peoples confidence in their safe (whatever the brand) diminishes after they hear the facts. Then, they feel the need to defend their purchase by arguing the facts.

I worked as a machinist for many years. At one shop, I built and welded heavy cabinets for lead screw tapping machines. So, I have experience with bending and welding all kinds of gauges of steel.

I guarantee you, that I could break open one of those sturdy safes with a pry bar and sledge hammer within that hour time limit. I could do the same with my AMSEC. I of course would get to choose the pry bar and sledge. I would even film it and put it on you tube.

 

[btn]

Well they were talking just pry bars. But regardless I'd like to see is which one you would get into first, the Amsec or the Sturdy. I'd pay some money to see that and I'd be willing to make a wager...Maybe we should get a collection going.