Sub Moa Challenge?

Hugger-4641

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Not that I think I'm a great marksman, or have anything to prove, but I wish Backfire lived closer so I could take him up on his $50 sub Moa group challenge. $50 would buy a box of bullets or maybe a lb of powder. 🙂
This is from my X-bolt Pro 300wm and I was just playing around with some SST and Amax tonight while waiting for my Optima to cool a bit. The SST was first 3 shots, let it cool while I shot the Optima a few times, then shot 3 Amax. It looks like only two, but look close, it is 3 shots. 20230907_185921.jpg 20230907_184856.jpg
 
Doesn't his challenge require factory ammo, or does he not specify?

My factory Bergara B14 in 7mm-08 does sub-MOA 5-shot groups with my handloads.

Let's rush his house!
That's a good question , I don't remember him specifying factory ammo and I don't remember if he specified 3 or 5 shots. 🤔 Factory Precision Hunter does give me pretty consistent sub moa groups in that gun though, so I think I'd still take his money. I don't usually shoot 5 shot groups though, I may have to test that.
 
Not that I think I'm a great marksman, or have anything to prove, but I wish Backfire lived closer so I could take him up on his $50 sub Moa group challenge. $50 would buy a box of bullets or maybe a lb of powder.

I have some firearms that shooting a sub MOA group would be an impossible challenge and others it would be a real shock if they didn’t shoot well inside sub MOA. Lots of variables could be hidden within such a challenge.
 
To be fair, his challenge refers to stock, factory rifles that have a 1 MOA guarantee with "match" ammo.


The point of the OP is that he is happy he had such great groups. Great shooting @Hugger-4641.
 
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That's a good question , I don't remember him specifying factory ammo and I don't remember if he specified 3 or 5 shots.
It's 5 shot groups, but that's more the point he's trying to make that these manufacturers guarantee 1 MOA and mean it'll do 1 3 shot group under MOA occasionally not 5 shot groups consistently.
 
It's 5 shot groups, but that's more the point he's trying to make that these manufacturers guarantee 1 MOA and mean it'll do 1 3 shot group under MOA occasionally not 5 shot groups consistently.
Oh, ok, well if that's what he means then he intentionally eliminated a lot of hunting rifles. I've got a Howa and an Ar-15 that will shoot sub moa for the first 3 to 4 shots and then start walking to 1 1/2 to 2 moa if you keep shooting. Now, if he's gonna give me enough time for the barrel to cool between shots, I've got at least four bolt action rifles that will do it consistently with some factory ammo and a couple more will do it with handloads.
 
It's 5 shot groups, but that's more the point he's trying to make that these manufacturers guarantee 1 MOA and mean it'll do 1 3 shot group under MOA occasionally not 5 shot groups consistently.
To summarize even further, he's saying the "guarantees" are worthless and have created unrealistic expectations of people's hunting rifles.

I posted the actual video in post #7.
 
I am guilty😆 Once you get a rifle, especially a budget rifle, that does consistently shoot moa groups or less, it's hard to accept anything less. If I pay $1000+ for a rifle these days, I expect at least 1 1/2 moa performance with premium factory ammo and I've got a few $500 guns that deliver this. All of my Savages , my Ruger American .308, and my T/C 6.5cm will do it.
 
To summarize even further,
Lol that's an oxymoron.
I agree with you, but it's nothing new claims of accuracy should almost always have an * as to which definition of"will" or "can" one is using.
I can* shoot .5 MOA at 100 yards off a bog pod with an iron sighted AR.

* did it once 3 shots have absolutely no expectation that I can repeat it.
 
Lol that's an oxymoron.
I agree with you, but it's nothing new claims of accuracy should almost always have an * as to which definition of"will" or "can" one is using.
I can* shoot .5 MOA at 100 yards off a bog pod with an iron sighted AR.

* did it once 3 shots have absolutely no expectation that I can repeat it.
That is true, sometimes definitions are subjective, including my own . I generally use the rule of 3. If I get three similar groups in a row, that is cold bore 3 shot groups, I call that "repeatable". If I shoot 5 cold bore groups and one of them has a flier, I generally blame it on myself and not dispersion. But, since my goal is usually related to hunting, I am really most interested in the first cold bore shot. If I shoot a few groups that are all 1moa or less, but one group is centered 1 1/2" left of POA and the next group is 1 1/2 below POA, I'm not calling that "repeatable".
 
I saw that video and laughed about it. My tikka in 25-06 had shot many many many sub moa groups with factory ammo from a bench on front and rear bags before I started handloading and I imagine it still would. I have not shot any factory ammo for many years except for my varmint AR which hovers a little over 1 moa with PSA factory match ammo.

If you let me handload and use my choice of rests on a bench then the challenge becomes silly. I have shot MOA groups from my 1898 krag, though I couldn't claim it could do it every time.

If you really want to see how well factory rifles can shoot, go to a competitive shooting event with a production class. Using the yahoo's at a public sight in range for the litmus test is straight up silly.
 
That is true, sometimes definitions are subjective, including my own . I generally use the rule of 3. If I get three similar groups in a row, that is cold bore 3 shot groups, I call that "repeatable". If I shoot 5 cold bore groups and one of them has a flier, I generally blame it on myself and not dispersion. But, since my goal is usually related to hunting, I am really most interested in the first cold bore shot. If I shoot a few groups that are all 1moa or less, but one group is centered 1 1/2" left of POA and the next group is 1 1/2 below POA, I'm not calling that "repeatable".

What I like to do for a hunting rifle is shoot one shot on a paper and then take it with me. I keep shooting the cold bore shot on that target over several months in different weather. I often find that some rifles that shoot pretty mediocre groups are very consistent on the cold bore shot. I would rather have a rifle that shoots within 3moa circle every day, every time, than a rifle that shots little groups to the wrong POI.
 
But, since my goal is usually related to hunting, I am really most interested in the first cold bore shot.
A long time ago I read an article (in an actual paper magazine lol) where the guy basically took the time to shoot 5 shot groups of all cold clean bore shots for that very reason.
I have a 224 Valkyrie AR that when shot suppressed will throw the cold shot low left with precision. This is 2 5 shot groups shot about 10 minutes apart. 20200716_133504~2.jpg
 
What I like to do for a hunting rifle is shoot one shot on a paper and then take it with me. I keep shooting the cold bore shot on that target over several months in different weather. I often find that some rifles that shoot pretty mediocre groups are very consistent on the cold bore shot. I would rather have a rifle that shoots within 3moa circle every day, every time, than a rifle that shots little groups to the wrong POI.
I like that. I'm gonna try that with a few rifles.
 
A long time ago I read an article (in an actual paper magazine lol) where the guy basically took the time to shoot 5 shot groups of all cold clean bore shots for that very reason.
I have a 224 Valkyrie AR that when shot suppressed will throw the cold shot low left with precision. This is 2 5 shot groups shot about 10 minutes apart.View attachment 1170521
See, that's where knowing your rifle is key. As long as you know the first shot is always gonna do that, no problem for hunting. But if it's random shots that do that, I'm generally blaming myself or something wrong with the ammo.
 
A long time ago I read an article (in an actual paper magazine lol) where the guy basically took the time to shoot 5 shot groups of all cold clean bore shots for that very reason.
I have a 224 Valkyrie AR that when shot suppressed will throw the cold shot low left with precision. This is 2 5 shot groups shot about 10 minutes apart.View attachment 1170521

My 444 marlin does a similar group walking where the 2nd and 3rd shots are shifted slightly and then it settles down into a group till you let it cool off. No critter has survived the first shot so that is just fine.
 
My remington sendero 300win mag I’ve been working on.
Target is 5 180gr accubonds. My hunting load. N560.
Now I’m playing with 240gr smk. I’m getting 2780fps with them and no pressure sign.
 

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I like that. I'm gonna try that with a few rifles.

It can be enlightening, especially if you shoot in the cold. I like to test from like 70 degrees to -20. I spend a lot of time in the winter experimenting with powders and primers to find loads that don't fall apart when the temp goes negative. I've seen POI change by a foot at 200 yards from my summer sight in to -25 deg F!
 
It can be enlightening, especially if you shoot in the cold. I like to test from like 70 degrees to -20. I spend a lot of time in the winter experimenting with powders and primers to find loads that don't fall apart when the temp goes negative. I've seen POI change by a foot at 200 yards from my summer sight in to -25 deg F!

Well I won't be getting anywhere near -20 in the Phoenix area. Hahaha. But 40 degrees to 120 is easily doable.
 
It can be enlightening, especially if you shoot in the cold. I like to test from like 70 degrees to -20. I spend a lot of time in the winter experimenting with powders and primers to find loads that don't fall apart when the temp goes negative. I've seen POI change by a foot at 200 yards from my summer sight in to -25 deg F!
I live in northern Minnesota too so I think I can say this with some authority. You're nuts to be out shooting in that. 😀 But since you are.... What do you think causes the large groups? Ball powder, barrel shift...?
 
I live in northern Minnesota too so I think I can say this with some authority. You're nuts to be out shooting in that. 😀 But since you are.... What do you think causes the large groups? Ball powder, barrel shift...?

I love the cold. I don't see group size changing dramatically with temp, but the POI definitely does, especially at longer ranges. I see it really being 3 things.

1st barrels have a resonant frequency and the POI moves a lot with different loads or velocities. The worst I have ever seen for this is my 1898 Krag. If you load up a batch of loads with say, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 grains of powder, with all else being equal, the POI can change 12 inches at 100 yards in that range of charges. With certain bullets and powders the POI will go up with higher loads, and sometimes it goes down with higher loads. It depends on how the barrel is whipping at the moment the bullet leaves the bore. That is by far the most extreme example I've ever seen. The trick when dealing with that is you need to find the top or bottom of that harmonic window. I now test when I am working up a load to find a charger where the POI doesn't shift even if you reduce the powder load 2 or 3 grains. I am more concerned about making sure I'm on that node than finding the smallest group.

The next thing would be the bedding of the barrel and action, especially with wood stocks that are contact with the barrel. I glass bedded a ruger M77 for a family member that would changed POI several inches depending on the time of year. He was constantly chasing it around with the scope turrets and it would just never stay zero'd. After I floated the barrel and glass bedded the action the POI no longer wanders around. My father in law on the other hand has a weatherby with a full contact walnut stock and I don't think the scope caps have been off of it for 20 years.

Lastly, velocity can and will change dramatically with very cold temps, and just because a powder is advertised as temp insensitive there is no guarantee that it will work decently below 0. For example most ball powders I've tested are actually not bad when going from 50 degrees to -20. They seam to be more of a problem going from 50 to 100 with pressure spikes, but I don't see a huge difference going the other way in temperature, especially with a magnum primer.

As an example from my notes, I tested my 25-06 several years ago with two different loads. One load was with H4831sc which is regarded as one of the most temp stable powders ever made, and the other was with RL19, which is commonly known to be pretty temp sensitive. The load with H4831sc lost 350 FPS going from summer temps to -18 deg F! The load with RL19 only lost about 40 fps.

This last winter one of my projects was to find a temp stable load for my 444 marlin. I have been loading it with RL7 for many years but found through testing that I would get a huge difference in drop at 200 yards if the temp was bellow about 10 degrees, so I don't take it hunting if its really cold. My velocities for my pet RL7 load are about 2200 fps at 80 deg F, 2100 fps at 25 degrees F, and at -15 degrees after letting the ammo and rifle sit out overnight I got an average velocity of 1780 FPS! I tested several different powders over about a week when it was really cold and settled on RL10x with a Federal magnum primer. At 60 degrees I got 2165 fps, and at -20 F it was 2080 fps.

The magnum primers are something I discovered in the last couple years to make an enormous difference in the cold to combat that velocity drop. I am planning to retest most of my rifle with magnum primers. It also helps alot in pistol calibers as well. I also test my defensive pistol loads at -20 F as well.

And then to make it even more difficult, there are some powders that are inversely temp sensitive, so the pressure goes up at cold temps. The picture below was a 300 blackout loaded with Lil Gun with the max load listed in the hodgdon manual. This load shot completely normally in november at 40 or 50 degrees and showed no pressure signs. At -18 deg F. The primer pockets are expanded almost big enough to fit a large rifle primer.

1694202128573.png
 
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I love the cold. I don't see group size changing dramatically with temp, but the POI definitely does, especially at longer ranges. I see it really being 3 things.

1st barrels have a resonant frequency and the POI moves a lot with different loads or velocities. The worst I have ever seen for this is my 1898 Krag. If you load up a batch of loads with say, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 grains of powder, with all else being equal, the POI can change 12 inches at 100 yards in that range of charges. With certain bullets and powders the POI will go up with higher loads, and sometimes it goes down with higher loads. It depends on how the barrel is whipping at the moment the bullet leaves the bore. That is by far the most extreme example I've ever seen. The trick when dealing with that is you need to find the top or bottom of that harmonic window. I now test when I am working up a load to find a charger where the POI doesn't shift even if you reduce the powder load 2 or 3 grains. I am more concerned about making sure I'm on that node than finding the smallest group.

The next thing would be the bedding of the barrel and action, especially with wood stocks that are contact with the barrel. I glass bedded a ruger M77 for a family member that would changed POI several inches depending on the time of year. He was constantly chasing it around with the scope turrets and it would just never stay zero'd. After I floated the barrel and glass bedded the action the POI no longer wanders around. My father in law on the other hand has a weatherby with a full contact walnut stock and I don't think the scope caps have been off of it for 20 years.

Lastly, velocity can and will change dramatically with very cold temps, and just because a powder is advertised as temp insensitive there is no guarantee that it will work decently below 0. For example most ball powders I've tested are actually not bad when going from 50 degrees to -20. They seam to be more of a problem going from 50 to 100 with pressure spikes, but I don't see a huge difference going the other way in temperature, especially with a magnum primer.

As an example from my notes, I tested my 25-06 several years ago with two different loads. One load was with H4831sc which is regarded as one of the most temp stable powders ever made, and the other was with RL19, which is commonly known to be pretty temp sensitive. The load with H4831sc lost 350 FPS going from summer temps to -18 deg F! The load with RL19 only lost about 40 fps.

This last winter one of my projects was to find a temp stable load for my 444 marlin. I have been loading it with RL7 for many years but found through testing that I would get a huge difference in drop at 200 yards if the temp was bellow about 10 degrees, so I don't take it hunting if its really cold. My velocities for my pet RL7 load are about 2200 fps at 80 deg F, 2100 fps at 25 degrees F, and at -15 degrees after letting the ammo and rifle sit out overnight I got an average velocity of 1780 FPS! I tested several different powders over about a week when it was really cold and settled on RL10x with a Federal magnum primer. At 60 degrees I got 2165 fps, and at -20 F it was 2080 fps.

The magnum primers are something I discovered in the last couple years to make an enormous difference in the cold to combat that velocity drop. I am planning to retest most of my rifle with magnum primers. It also helps alot in pistol calibers as well. I also test my defensive pistol loads at -20 F as well.

And then to make it even more difficult, there are some powders that are inversely temp sensitive, so the pressure goes up at cold temps. The picture below was a 300 blackout loaded with Lil Gun with the max load listed in the hodgdon manual. This load shot completely normally in november at 40 or 50 degrees and showed no pressure signs. At -18 deg F. The primer pockets are expanded almost big enough to fit a large rifle primer.

View attachment 1170553

Very interesting. I like that your testing range includes 50 degrees down to -20. That's a much more relevant temperature range during hunting season in our part of the country than going from 50-100. The fact that you're chilling both the ammo AND the gun leaves no unknown variables in your testing. Of course your findings on the stability of ball powder vs stick are not what the typical tests seem to find either. Just goes to show there's no substitute for going out and finding out for yourself, especially when it comes to conditions most of the country would never encounter. You still won't find me out shooting in minus 20 though. Maybe zero with no wind. :)
 
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