Sub-MOA shooters

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I can understand wanting to dig deep into the numbers as far as group size is concerned. I've been known to do similar things. I don't fault anyone for that....sorry I was a little facetious about how I stated it.

I'm certain that I've posted a single group and bragged about how well a rifle shot.......but as I've gotten older there's no reason for me to stretch the truth about how well I or the rifle might shoot.......if it shoots I'm happy.....if it doesn't I sell it!
 
Denton555, here's an entire target with four 5-shot groups that I shot last year at 100 yards using factory Hornady ammunition prior to starting load development for a new 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. Would you conclude that I got tired and messed up the group at 9 o'clock? What if I tell you that the groups at 12, 3 and 6 o'clock were shot using Hornady 140gr A-MAX ammunition and the group at 9 o'clock using Hornady 120gr GMX ammunition. All four groups were shot in the same 30 minute session and my takeaway was that the GMX ammo sucks in that rifle and that I'd pull 200 or so of those loads that I have on hand to use the brass since I wasn't going to use up barrel life with that garbage!! Could I shoot four 5-shot groups that measure under 1 moa at 100 yards using my Kimber Talkeetna chambered in .375 H&H Mag in one session ... probably not, even though I've shot a number of 5-shot groups with that rifle in the .65 moa range or better. That rifle requires maximum concentration whereas the AI is effortless. My point is that no one is a sub moa shooter with every rifle, under any condition, on any day but some can make that claim with one rifle, under optimum conditions on many days. As a hunter, I'm more interested in putting three shots from a cold, clean bore within 0.5 moa of my POA on any given day, under any conditions out to a reasonable range for hunting deer and elk from "typical" field positions. Much of what I do is load development and rifle/optic/load validation so that I know any misses are on me.

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MCMXI said:
I run my targets through OnTarget because it generates some useful data such as horizontal and vertical error, average distance from center and some other useful variables, and I'd rather see targets processed that way than shown with various pieces of US currency covering up the fliers. :scrutiny:
Click to expand...

I've thought the same with repair sticker dots and tape, especially when the group or score has to count against others online. It doesn't bother me too much otherwise.
 
I never really give it much thought anymore. Sub MOA really depends on the rifle I am shooting and how well I shoot it with the load tossed in. Been about 7 years since I shot a match but really enjoyed local club NRA matches. With maybe 50 shooters I was happy to shoot in the top ten. These days I simply enjoy being out on the range, trying different loads and rifles. Last year I managed a 0.4 inch 100 yard 5 shot group but I really never measured my larger groups. My better rifles are a .223 Remington and a .308 Winchester bolt gun. Pretty sure with the right loads those rifles will shoot as well and as tight as I could ever hope to. I simply enjoy choosing a few rifles and spending a day at my outdoor range. Bring along lunch and Gatorade. :)

Some days I shoot better than others. With the right rifle and a good load holding MOA off the bench is relatively easy and some days not so much. Personally I really don't overly care if all my groups (I always shoot 5 shot groups) are sub MOA or not. I am out there for the enjoyment, relaxation and occasionally good conversation. I am not out there so I can run home, hop on a online forum and boast about my best groups and not mention the groups which sucked. :)

Ron
 
When I started reading a gun forum in 1994, rec.guns on the old usenet, I read about the 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards.
By January 2000 I had a rifle that would shoot 1" average on the first trip to the range and 1/2" a week later on the second trip.

What happened during those 6 years between 1994 and 2000?
Many trips to the range. I saw two 1" groups in all that time. But on the internet, a one inch group would solicit advice on how to solve your problem.

The worst thing about the internet, was that they gave benchrest ritual advice to those getting 5" groups.
De burring your flash hole, truing your action, and crowning your muzzle will do nothing measurable to a 5" group.
 
My brother is a fantastic natural shot and I always looked up to him and tried to match him. My first centerfire rifle I bought of my own is very accurate and I was shooting very nice groups with that within the first few boxes of ammo.

These are the first 5 shot groups shot on 5 different range trips. I bought the gun in 05 and these were shot in 2011.



that is my benchmark for what a rifle should be and I'm disappointed in most cases if I can't come close with a scoped bolt rifle. Honestly the term moa is not important to me, when I say an moa group I mean a 1 inch group at 100. I'm spoiled because that's what I learned to expect
 
Clark wrote:
I saw two 1" groups in all that time. But on the internet, a one inch group would solicit advice on how to solve your problem. ... The worst thing about the internet, was that they gave benchrest ritual advice to those getting 5" groups.
De burring your flash hole, truing your action, and crowning your muzzle will do nothing measurable to a 5" group.
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Amen.

That is part of the reason I don't post photos of my targets. The other reason is because my targets are milk jugs a quarter full of water, they don't photograph too well.

I'm looking for 4 MOA or less for 90% of my shots. The farthest open space available where I shoot (and where I will live in retirement) is 225 meters and 4 MOA will let me get within the vital area of most deer and within the "center of mass" of a man - should it ever come down to my needing to shoot someone.

That will 1) keep me fed or 2) keep me alive, and that's all I ask of my guns.
 
This post makes me get a little more introspective than I usually enjoy. I guess I'm guilty of that greatest crime of riflemen. Taking the rifle out, shooting 10 groups, 5 or 6 or which are sub-MOA, and somehow forgetting about the ones which weren't by the time I make it to a computer.

I don't own any high end, or "truly accurate" rifles, so I just kind of muddle along with my "walmart gear". Being that as it is, I suppose my current skill and gear could safely be called 1.5 MOA. Meaning that from a bench and my bags, my rifle and chosen ammo can produce 1.5 inch or less groups at 100 yards on demand, every time. It can do 1 inch most of the time. But not always.

I suppose that if the day ever comes that I own a setup and develop the skills to be able to place 5 bullets less than 1 inch away from eachother at 100 yards, every time, any day, on demand... then I (or my rifle) would be truly sub MOA.

Until then I'll just be working on trying to resist the urge to show off that one .2 among a stack of 1.2s. o_O
 
For most of my life I've been a hunter, not a target shooter. As were virtually all of the shooters I knew. Three shot groups have been the standard for as long as I've been involved in shooting. From a hunting perspective 3 shots tell me all I need to know. I'd not be overly impressed, nor overly distraught over 1 great or 1 poor 3 shot group. I look for consistency in group size and placement in a series of 3 shot groups over the course of multiple range trips. Most of my hunting rifles will put 3 shots into 1 MOA most of the time. I get some bragging size groups fairly regularly near or even under 1/2 MOA and sometimes I have a bad day and shoot some 1 1/2 MOA groups.

But things are changing. Most shooters today are target shooters and if they hunt at all it is secondary. These guys scoff at 3 shot groups and claim 5 or even 10 are necessary. To them maybe so. But I'll never shoot more than 3 in a setting and could care less what my rifle does for more than 3 shots.

Part of this is economics and recoil. I tend to shoot 5-10 shot groups when shooting my 22 or even 223 because ammo is a lot cheaper and recoil is not an issue. But when I move up to big game rifles the added expense and recoil of 5-10 shot groups starts to be a factor. Most target shooters today aren't spending $1-$2 every time they pull the trigger nor getting hit with 20-30 ft lbs of recoil like you would get from a standard weight hunting rifle in a more potent caliber.

I don't think it matters which standard is used as long as readers know. When I post group sizes I try make the point that I'm talking about 3 shot groups.
 
tark said:
I guess I'm like a lot of people my age, (69 this year) I USED TO be able to...... you fill in the rest. I can still shoot those one inch groups today... at 25 yards:( Minute of pie plate at a hundred...
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Sounds like me, Try small bore silhouette....its super cheap now that 22 exists again....and is fun....the guns are/can be smaller lighter more easy to hold steady. This is about as far as I go anymore. I have a neck fusion so prone does not work for me anymore....range of motion is not there...I can't tilt my head back. So if I want to punch paper for a group it is off a bench.

I think that is a bit of a cheat, it really tells you what the gun can do more then what you can do....yes you are part of the puzzle, but not as much off hand.

Depending on the rifle I can hit a target the size of an Ike dollar at 100 from the bench with a scope....that is not saying much....I can't see that target with my eyes....I need help.

Then we get to glasses, progressives suck, and with your eyes as out of wack as mine you get a choice, front sight, back sight, or target...you don't get any two....just one.

I have to be within 50 to see a target the size of an Ike dollar...and it has to be pretty contrasted against the background....how these people see that at farther distances I have no idea.
 
When I first wrote this post my hot spot allowance for the month had just ran out so if the post seems disjointed I am try to catch up with a couple of days more post.

I judge a firearm on two different levels of accuracy, and precision.
1) Mechanical accuracy of the rifle, scope, and load.
2) Shooting accuracy of the dumb monkey jerking the trigger of the firearm in question

My current Model 700 in .308 Win is a pleasure to work with simply because it is easy to develop loads for, the scope is good, and when on the bench bagged up will do MOA all day with only a little effort on my part.

I had a Bushmaster Varminter that also was mechanically very accurate, except for 60 grain V-Max's, it just did not like them for some reason.

When I am not testing loads, or making sure the scope is zeroed, I try to keep my shooting to realistic scenarios. The 700 will mostly be shot prone with a bipod, and no bag. I have shot some very nice groups like this, but not MOA.

My S&W Sport with open sights at two hundred yards prone I am happy to keep everything in the 6 ring, definitely not MOA.

When I am load testing I do consider flyers, but also understand that I am human and will jerk, flench, and breath at the wrong time. With this being taken in consideration I wait until I can produce three, or four 3 shot groups at a consistent size befor I declare it a xx size load.

The biggest reason I get all twisted up about the accuracy, and precision of a rig is I am not able to spend a lot of time on the range, so my time there should not be spent fighting the equipment that I have.

I do enjoy the development part of the game, but I want to be able to pick up my bag, leave the house, and then set up at the range, or in the field and be able to crack off one or a hundred rounds and be confident the outliers, and misses are because of my failure to follow the fundamentals, not because the scope is shifting from the recoil, or the bolt to barrel lockup is sloppier than an old ..........er...... I mean my belt line.
20150321_124357.jpg

20150226_143922-1.jpg

The target is a very good example of the 700 when I am on. This is at two hundred yards prone, bipod.

With all that ranting said, do people shot consistently MOA? A relatively small number will always be at that level. Will others cherry pick the best group they have? Yes they will, and if they are honest about it so what. Will some people just out and out lie? Yes, and I think it is this third group that has created the seed of this fun, and hopefully continuing conversation.
 
My opinion: The purpose of the benchrest is to take the human out of the equation to the greatest extent possible. It's a test of the rifle and the load.

In the field, the human factor enters in. Doesn't matter about the rifle; it's a known and proven thing. In the field, it's al about the shooter's skill.
 
Clark said:
I estimate there are 1,000,000 men in a quest for rifle accuracy, but trapped in 100 yard ranges due to suburban density.
If at age 65 they move to a town with public land capable of 600 yard shots, just 10 minutes out of town, they are still trapped in a 100 yard mentality.
I have been rehabilitating my friends.
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that is exactly what I have found. they have a mental block at 100 yds do not want to go further
 
The purpose of the benchrest is to take the human out of the equation to the greatest extent possible. It's a test of the rifle and the load.

In the field, the human factor enters in. Doesn't matter about the rifle; it's a known and proven thing. In the field, it's al about the shooter's skill.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I use a bench and rest for four reasons but in all cases I'm trying to obtain the most reliable data possible so that I can make an informed decision, and a good bench/rest with good technique improves the reliability of the data.
 
I can honestly say I shot a dead bullseye with my Glock 30s at 75 yards. I can also honestly say it was blind luck, the other 9 rounds totally missed the target by a mile.

My shooting varies a lot. Some days are better than others. I have shot a group or two with my scoped "SPR" AR15 at less than 1 inch at 100 yards. I have shot many, many more that were much larger! Many more is an understatement! Oh well, I still have fun.

Russellc
 
5-shot group at 100 yards while load testing my AI AT with a 260 Rem 26" Tooley Bartlein barrel. This was shot using a Harris bipod and a TAB rear bag off a bench. I have a Vortex Razor 5-20x50 (gen 1) on Spuhr bases for optics. This rifle is a consistent 0.5 MOA shooter

H4831SC%20test2_zpsltv78ujf.jpg

This 5-shot group was done with factory 139gr Lapua Scenar match loads.

Range%20Day%20102415%20SW%20Ammo%20139gr%20Lap%20Scenar_zps3wfu3b6h.jpg

Every one of my rifles is a 1 MOA or better shooter though none is as consistent as my AI AT. I do all my shooting off bipods or front bags when I use a bench and prone using a bipod. The higher end rifles built in the last 20 years are consistent high quality rifles from almost all the major manufacturers. When mine don't deliver the desired result, my first assumption is operator error.

YMMV.

Harry
 
I have shot sub-MOA @ 100 yds. with my Howa 1500 .223 Rem (five-shot groups), with loads that took me months and many trips to the range to finally get down. I have targets I've kept to remind me what that rifle can do when I do my part. This is evidenced by the fact that when I fail to practice, and months go by between range sessions, I suck. Not the ammo, not the gun, not the conditions-me. I bought that rifle, my rests, and my reloading gear with the goal of shooting dime-sized groups out of it with consistency. I succeeded at the first part, but not the second. I also play guitar. If I don't pick my instrument up every day, guess how I sound the next time I play?
 
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I've never been a sniper, space shuttle door gunner or even stayed a motel 6 lately. But I have shot a lot of rifles. We're talking, in my opinion, about two things. A) the capability of a particular rifle and load and B) the ability of a shooter to take advantage of the rifle's capability.

I have two rifles that are genuine MOA rifles and owned a couple others in the past. If the shot missed, I can be confident it was my fault, not a gremlin in my equipment. If I hand those rifles to another accomplished shooter, the rifles perform exactly the same. On the other hand, I have a couple rifles that, even when I'm having an "on" day, are not capable of more than two to three minute of angle past 100 yards.

Then there's the shooter. Can he or she take advantage of the accuracy of a given rifle in a given position? There is a level of skill involved in each shooting position, from benched to prone to offhand.

Number of shots is another thing. Less than five rounds is bordering on insignificant because the test is repetition of the shot.

Now for distance. Most rifles are capable of MOA at shorter ranges. Dispersion makes MOA harder to achieve at longer ranges.

So. Am I a MOA shooter? Some days. Other days, not.
 
Yeah, I would like to add to the 3 legged stool:
1) Rifle
2) Ammo
3) Shooter

How about wind gusts?
The average wind in America is 6 mph. If that is gusts, there goes 0.7 moa on a 150 gr 308.
4) Wind
 
A few of my rifles are sub MOA. Many days I'm a sub MOA shooter with them. Just like some days I run faster than others. It is my belief that many people don't know what sub MOA even means. I've heard more than a few people attest as to the accuracy of their awesome rifle, but when I look at their target, my first question is "how do you know its accurate"?
 
with my chosen rifle and its favorite load, i can do sub moa 5 shot groups at 100y much more often than not shooting at a bench and using my range box as a front rest and no rear rest. ive only had one rifle that would do that. im farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from the top tier shooters, but i do know what level of work goes into it and i dont expect anyone to believe me if the dont watch me pull the trigger.
 
Off the bench with sand bags, I'm able to hover right around MOA with several of my rifles, consistently under with a few of them. Shooting prone with a bi pod, group size will increase a little. In most field positions, I would say I'm 2-3 MOA, up to 5 off hand (or if I try to take a shot right after hiking up a hill).
 
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