Sub-MOA shooters

[taliv]

i don't shoot paper often, but this is pretty normal when i do. 40 rounds in one sitting, prone off bipod with rear bag. and i will say that an awful lot of the guys I hang out with in the PRS are much better shooters than I am and regularly shoot tighter groups. So yeah, I think there are a LOT of sub-MOA shooters out there.

however, that's not to say that there aren't a lot of posers too. I'm skeptical of a lot of claims for sure. and holy crap, I call total BS on most claims i hear in gun stores.

I don't think I could shoot much better than the OP with his setup.

 

[Captcurt]

I'll go first. I shoot off a front bag or bipod. I use a scope. I use 5 shots to evaluate a group. Flyers are included. I don't know if that makes me a sub-moa shooter or not. I do know it works to help me evaluate a load or rifle.

I know I need to spend more time practicing while standing or kneeling. If I was better at those techniques I would definitely be a better shooter.

Nearly all us could benefit from more offhand and field position practice. I have made it a point to shoot a lot of offhand on every trip to the range. Pellet gun practice and smallbore will definitely help too.

As for sub-MOA, we often hear only the tight groups. You know, the one group out of five that was under an inch. We don't mention the four groups that were 1 1/4" to 1/2". I have noticed that my tightest groups are when I shoot one time.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I have only ever shot from a bi-pod seated at a bench, and 100yds is the farthest I've had the opportunity to shoot. My sole rifle is an AR fitted with a red dot and I am generally shooting between 2-4 MOA depending on whether I'm just blasting away or taking my time. At this point and time I'm not really interested in extreme accuracy distance shooting.

I will say, personally I feel like when the gun is so fully supported that all the shooter is essentially doing is pulling the trigger, that there is not as much skill involved, especially at closer distances. I suppose at further distances where you have to adjust for factors you could say there's some skill there.

 

[someguy2800]

I would be very happy with myself to shoot the group in the first post with iron sights and an M1a. I can tell you right now that in that particular discipline your a better shot that me.

After a few thousand rounds of practice in the last few years I am a decent shot with a pistol but shooting a scoped rifle on a benchrest is really the only shooting discipline that comes naturally to me. My brother is better than me but could really care less to shoot other than a muzzleloader.

 

[rayatphonix]

Tcoz, to answer your question I've never thought about it that way. If someone asked I'd say I can shoot MOA groups given the right conditions. If asked how good a shooter I am the answer would be "in the top 50%". I've been around some people that can really shoot, and unfortunately, I'm not near that talented.

 

[MCMXI]

There are a lot of folks that shoot one rifle well but I haven't met many that shoot all rifles well. Sub moa with a good and heavy tactical rifle at 100 to 400 yards prone off a bipod with a rear bag is not much of a challenge. Shooting sub moa over that same range using lightweight hunting rifles is far more challenging and there are a lot fewer capable of consistent sub moa performance with the latter compared to the former. From a hunting perspective with deer or elk, if you can keep all shots within 8" from 0 yards to 400 yards from any field position appropriate for the range you're in a very small group. Folks often talk as if the target gets bigger the further away it is. My point is that you don't need to be a consistent sub moa shooter to be effective on game out to 200 yards, in fact, a rock solid sub 4 moa shooter from field positions out to 200 yards would probably put you in the top 10% in the country.

My favorite and most effective field position with a lightweight hunting rifle is prone with a sling but here in MT there's a lot of tall grass so prone is rarely an option. A few years ago I was hunting with a guide and we crawled about 100 yards to within 100 yards of a big herd of mule deer. There was a really nice buck standing between and behind two does looking in our direction. I would estimate the gap between the does to be about 24" and the guide told me not to shoot. He didn't know me and his past experiences with numerous clients gave him cause for concern. Seriously, I could have shot that buck in either eye since I was prone and slung up with my favorite hunting rifle but he didn't know that so I did what I was told. He was kind of surprised later that day when I shot a nice buck buck through the heart at 203 yards from a kneeling position and leaning up against a fence post. The buck didn't even take a step. That guide is now a good friend and we've hunted together each year since then, as friends and not as client and guide.

Shooting is an interesting sport where specialization doesn't always transfer well to other disciplines within the sport. You have to practice the specific discipline using equipment unique to that application under conditions typical for that task. For example, all because you shoot 100 from the 24 yard line at your local trap club, that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to find pheasant hunting easy.

 

[MEHavey]

Sure....



But using open sights and cast bullets in an old Krag, I'm ecstatic with 2" groups.
Guess which one is more fun shooting at a 4MOA steel pig...


.

 

[Ramone]

if I'm shooting for groups, which for me is bipod or front rest, either bench or prone, 5 shot minimum, I can consistently get 1 MOA (if the first decimal is 0, I count it as 1 MOA). I don't throw out the flyer, though I usually wish I did

Slung up, I usually keep it under 1.5, prone, sitting & kneeling. if I can make 2 MOA standing, I'm pretty happy.

GSPR19SEP12T5

• Ramone
• Jun 25, 2017

GSPR11MAY12BH69SMKT2

• Ramone
• Jun 25, 2017

GSPR10NOV12T4

• Ramone
• Jun 25, 2017

GSPR10NOV12T3

• Ramone
• Jun 25, 2017

 

[MCMXI]

Growing up in an English boarding school that was subsidized by the British military, we had to participate in the CCF which was equivalent to the ROTC here. We had one chance a year to earn the "marksman" patch. We shot .303 Brit Lee-Enfields and had to shoot a five round group at 100M from prone with no sling and within a time limit, after a couple of sighters. If the group was 4" or less you got the patch. I don't think it mattered where the group was as long as it was somewhere within old jerry. I guess either the people pulling my targets were generous, or me and some random rifle were able to put five shots into 4" each year because I had the patch every year I was in the CCF.

 

[browningguy]

I consider myself a slightly above average rifleman and on a good day I might be able to shoot two or three out of ten sub-MOA three shot groups and maybe one five shot sub-MOA group if it's a really good day and only with a couple of my rifles.

Then I would say you are not an above average shooter, or you don't have very accurate rifles . If you are talking about your iron sighted M1 then there is simply no way it is a real MOA rifle, as you well know. If you are talking any open sighted rifles then it is unlikely that more than 1-2% of the board members could shoot consistent MOA with any rifle (I certainly couldn't). But with a reasonably accurate rifle, decent ammo, decent optics or peep sights, most people could be shooting MOA groups with a little training in fundamentals.

I don't consider myself an above average shooter, but I do have excellent tools and do my target shooting with a bipod most of the time (except the .22).

Here's a typical 50 yard 2x10 shot groups with my custom 10-22, green mt. 18" bull barrel, VQ trigger, shooting Eley Match, it's close to MOA at 50 yards, and a really could trigger puller could do better I am sure.

This is a typical 100 yard target for my 3 gun rifle, it's a RRA upper, 18" medium weight cryo'd barrel, CMC two stage trigger, Burris 332 red dot, and it shoots the 69gr. and 75 gr. Black Hills reloads most of the time.

This shows 3 x 5 shot ladder groups when developing a 107 gr. SMK handload for my .243 Savage with a 28" LW barrel, SSS LVT Stock, and back then it wore an 6.5-20 Weaver Grand Slam since upgraded to an 8-32.

Unfortunately this is the sort of standard group it shoots with a factory load with the 85gr. Sierra, so I'm still working on the handload. This load seems to hover around .4MOA for 5 shots no matter the weather, but I've only ever shot it out to 300 yards.

 

[Nature Boy]

I've posted a lot groups on THR that were +MOA looking for feedback and trouble shooting. I've also posted some +MOA groups that I was really happy with

I've posted a lot of groups that were sub MOA and shared the details on how I got there. A lot of times it was due in large part to the feedback I mention above, but it's also due to the fact that I shoot A LOT!

I'm confident in saying I'm sub MOA most of the time, but I'd never claim "all day, every day"

 

[someguy2800]

in fact, a rock solid sub 4 moa shooter from field positions out to 200 yards would probably put you in the top 10% in the country

This is absolutely true. Most people are horrible shots. I volunteered for a few years helping people sight in deer rifles and I could not believe how many people that can't hit a 5 gallon pail at 100 from a bench.

Honestly the only field position I could shoot 4 moa would be prone or my gun resting on an object such as a post, the side of a deer stand, or a tree. I would have no hope sitting or kneeling. I can go out tomorrow and put 10 shots on a 2" steel at 200 with my tikka 25-06 off the bench no sweat. I did 20 in a row a few weeks ago.

 

[ironworkerwill]

I am not a great shot IMO. I have at least two rifles that are sub moa shooters and I am able to make them shoot sub moa most days. Some days I show out and supprise myself. There's some days that I go home with my tail between my legs.

 

[bassjam]

I don't think I'd ever doubt someone's ability to shoot sub MOA. I've seen some REALLY bad shots with a rifle get tremendously better just with simple tips and practice. Heck, I've seen my own groups grow quite a bit just when I didn't shoot a rifle off a bench or prone for several years.

 

[hdwhit]

tcoz wrote:
Are there really as many sub-MOA shooters out there as you would believe by reading forum posts?

I don't know and I certainly don't want to call anyone a liar.

Speaking for myself, the standard I set for myself when I was a teenager and which I have attempted to maintain ever since has been to place at least 9 our of 10 shots in the circular divot on the side of a gallon-size milk jug at 100 yards firing offhand from a sitting or kneeling position using the sling for support.

Since the size of the divot varies depending on the manufacturer of the jug, it can be anywhere between 2.875 and 3.5 inches in diameter, so allowing one MOA to be 1.049 inches at 100 yards, that would make me somewhere between a 3 and 4 MOA shooter, so call it 4 MOA.

I don't shoot competitively so I don't have that as a basis upon which to judge the claims of others, but my observations from informal gathering such as my church's annual men's retreat, which involves an afternoon of shooting at an extemporized range, suggests that at 4 MOA, I am no worse than - and possibly better than some of - my peers.

 

[Nature Boy]

I have to admit, the ubiquitously repeated, "sub MOA all day" generally gets an eye roll from me, but I try not to question anyone's integrity or assume someone who's proud enough to post a picture of the group they shot deserves a lectures on statistics or one-up'd by tales of what they did back at Camp Perry 40 years ago....ad nauseam

 

[hdwhit]

tcoz wrote:
If I were to take as gospel all of the various posts that I read, then we have a sport/hobby filled with marksmen who are sub-MOA shooters...

It seems I notice the term "sub-MOA" being thrown into posts talking about the capability of a particular rifle. Things like, "I need a rifle capable of 'sub-MOA' accuracy" or "I'm not considering an AR because they don't deliver 'sub-MOA' performance" thereby implying they need such capabilities otherwise the hardware would be handicapping them.

I have to believe some of the people making such statements are in the same league as those who go shopping for a BMW because it is "the ultimate driving machine" even though they don't know how to parallel-park.

 

[Walkalong]

Are there really as many sub-MOA shooters out there as you would believe by reading forum posts?

No.

 

[Damon555]

The simple answer is no.......I've been to many ranges in my lifetime and see very few shooters who can shoot that consistently. There's a dead giveaway on these forums when people post pictures...........If you see an image of the entire target (not just one group) where all the groups are sub one inch then I'll accept that claim......but cropping out all the bad groups to brag about just one is a huge red flag.

Another laugher is the "called flyer" that doesn't count in the group........That makes no sense to me............if it came from the gun while shooting a group then it counts. No excuses.

I also get a kick out of shooters who have enough time to run their targets through those programs that draw dotted lines and a box around the groups......I can't imagine that it's any more accurate than measuring with a caliper in 15 seconds flat. I tried it once because it looked cool....but as soon as I did it I couldn't imagine how long it would take me to do that with all my targets. But I guess it wouldn't take long if it was done with only the best groups and then posting it online and saying that it shoots like that all day long......

 

[cougar1717]

Are there really as many sub-MOA shooters out there as you would believe by reading forum posts?
If I were to take as gospel all of the various posts that I read, then we have a sport/hobby filled with marksmen who are sub-MOA shooters all day, every day. Really.......?
So, what are the criteria for considering yourself a sub-MOA rifleman? How many groups out of how many shot? How many shots per group etc? What about flyers or sighters?

Let's face it - a lot of what is posted to a forum concerning group size is exaggerated. There is no accountability. Anyone can shoot one-holers at 25yds and post them to a forum claiming they were shot at 100yds or more. (We all know some are real from regular, contributing members, but many are exaggerated also.) On top of that, if anyone who garishly flaunts their incredible shooting ability is actually invited to a range even for practice, they never show.

There are not as many sub-MOA shooters as the internet would have you believe, but there are many great shooters that use forums. I suppose that it doesn't help that manufacturers have advertised rifles with 1MOA guarantees - that means that everyone who owns one is a 1MOA shooter, right One of the telltale signs of the keyboard marksman are those iconic words, "subMOA all day, IF I do my part." It makes me wonder how often they do not do their part. It also makes me wonder how many shots were made "all day."

The point about bench shooting vs field shooting is absolutely correct - there are more things in motion in the field. Game does not usually stand still and I've yet to see an orange dot on the kill zone of a prairie dog, groundhog, squirrel, rabbit, or deer.

In terms of attaining a title - I don't care, it doesn't matter that much - the most important thing to me is in my sig line.

I was recently shooting a nothing special AR, with an aftermarket trigger. Benched, shooting bag rest, no rear bag, scope set on 9x. I keep a potpourri box of 223 ammo with some of my best loads for testing - different bullet weights and loads 50-75gr to see what a rifle likes, but all mag length or less. Twelve groups of five later, four of those groups are subMOA and a few are just over. Many AR's are relatively easy to get to shoot well compared with large rifle calibers.

To me, three shots means very little. I prefer to start with at least two groups of five. Groups of ten get tricky as concentration and endurance become more of an issue. In contrast, a typical big game hunter just needs one cold barrel shot to hit the target to call it a success.

IMO sighters are fine - they get you on target and warm up the barrel. It's just that flyers should count toward the group. If a flyer messed up the group, then shoot another group. "Flyer" sounds so much better than "shooter error" or "flinch" - it's rarely the fault of the ammo. I just think too many people give themselves too many mulligans in the name of "flyer". Small groups are not easy for field or lightweight rifles as the internet has portrayed. They are easier for more stationary or bench style rifles - heavyweight barrels with a bipod and a too light for hunting trigger.

 

[someguy2800]

My favorite is when someone shoots 20 rounds at the same target and then picks out 5 of them that happen to be touching each other by random chance and assumes that is the rifles true capability and the rest are flyers.

 

[MCMXI]

I also get a kick out of shooters who have enough time to run their targets through those programs that draw dotted lines and a box around the groups......I can't imagine that it's any more accurate than measuring with a caliper in 15 seconds flat. I tried it once because it looked cool....but as soon as I did it I couldn't imagine how long it would take me to do that with all my targets. But I guess it wouldn't take long if it was done with only the best groups and then posting it online and saying that it shoots like that all day long......

I run my targets through OnTarget because it generates some useful data such as horizontal and vertical error, average distance from center and some other useful variables, and I'd rather see targets processed that way than shown with various pieces of US currency covering up the fliers. Just like taliv above, I'm not trying to hide anything with the load development groups below, just reporting the facts. The rifle used below, an AI AW will do this all year long at 100 yards with handloads or good factory ammunition from Hornady or similar. That's just the way that particular rifle shoots, and almost regardless of who is pulling the trigger.

 

[chicharrones]

I also get a kick out of shooters who have enough time to run their targets through those programs that draw dotted lines and a box around the groups......I can't imagine that it's any more accurate than measuring with a caliper in 15 seconds flat. I tried it once because it looked cool....but as soon as I did it I couldn't imagine how long it would take me to do that with all my targets. But I guess it wouldn't take long if it was done with only the best groups and then posting it online and saying that it shoots like that all day long......

When I was a "judge" for friendly online shooting matches for a few years in a row, the use of OnTarget by the partipants made my job easier. Otherwise I was stuck trying to figure out an internet photo to see if one person bested the other.

I even used it myself when I would put up an entry.

 

[taliv]

in addition to what 1911 said, ontarget calculates "average to center" (ATC) instead of "extreme spread" (Max) which is not easy to do with calipers no matter how many seconds you have.

My favorite is when someone shoots 20 rounds at the same target and then picks out 5 of them that happen to be touching each other by random chance and assumes that is the rifles true capability and the rest are flyers.

definitely a pet peeve

 

[Walkalong]

I've shot groups nearly over 1 MOA with my Benchrest gun. Shoot enough in tough conditions and you'll get a bad one. It happens. Does that mean no one is a "1 MOA" shooter? Not in my mind. Plenty of good to great shooters out there, and many THR members who are.

Do I believe every "my gun never shoots over "X MOA"? LOL.

Those of us who pay attention here tend to know who's serious, who you can believe, and what posts might be iffy. And we have all seen posts from folks that set off a red flag. One fellow posted that his box stock brand X never shot over .25 MOA. I told him he needed to go into Benchrest.

Everyone likes to pick and choose targets to show off, but every who is serious about reality, and serious about doing better in real live matches, has to be more realistic about the rifles and them selves. We have to own the bad groups, 99.9% of the "fliers", being honest with when it is our fault. You don't get better making excuses or ignoring the bad shots/groups.