Sub Moa Challenge?
- Thread starter Hugger-4641
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I went back and watched the whole video and he admits near the end that sub MOA hunting guns exist. IMHO his premise that the "guarantee" is a hoax is really only about 1/2 true, I'm reminded of the scene in Tommy Boy.
They have to have some CYA wording in the warranty because it's easy to shoot over MOA without trying
They have to have some CYA wording in the warranty because it's easy to shoot over MOA without trying
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Hugger-4641
Member
I went hunting last year on two days it was +3F, killed a doe one of those days, but it was only about 120yds. Most of the time around here, typical hunting temps in gun season are between +20 and 75F. I don't think I'm leaving the house if its -20.Very interesting. I like that your testing range includes 50 degrees down to -20. That's a much more relevant temperature range during hunting season in our part of the country than going from 50-100. The fact that you're chilling both the ammo AND the gun leaves no unknown variables in your testing. Of course your findings on the stability of ball powder vs stick are not what the typical tests seem to find either. Just goes to show there's no substitute for going out and finding out for yourself, especially when it comes to conditions most of the country would never encounter. You still won't find me out shooting in minus 20 though. Maybe zero with no wind.
someguy2800
Member
Very interesting. I like that your testing range includes 50 degrees down to -20. That's a much more relevant temperature range during hunting season in our part of the country than going from 50-100. The fact that you're chilling both the ammo AND the gun leaves no unknown variables in your testing. Of course your findings on the stability of ball powder vs stick are not what the typical tests seem to find either. Just goes to show there's no substitute for going out and finding out for yourself, especially when it comes to conditions most of the country would never encounter. You still won't find me out shooting in minus 20 though. Maybe zero with no wind.
There are definitely ball powders that don't do well in cold temps, but not all of them. Like I mentioned there are some ball powders that actually get faster in the cold. Ramshot Silhouette is another one that's inversely temp sensitive. H110 is one that I have heard lots of people say is temp sensitive but when I tested it in a 357 mag with a magnum primer at -18 F it was with like 10 fps off my readings in the summer. For sure though its not as simple as saying stick powders are better than ball powders for cold temps.
someguy2800
Member
I'll fail that test except for prone off a bipod or backpack. I was just shooting kneeling and sitting this afternoon. Something I want to work on is doing more practical shooting practice.
CoalCrackerAl
Member
My Savage 93 shoots sub MOA. It don't even have a accura trigger.
MarshallDodge
Member
A few years ago I did the MOA challenge on arfcom with my 223 Tikka Sporter while testing different handloads. None of the groups were shot with the same load, but five of the 5-shot groups averaged 0.74"
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Hugger-4641
Member
Agreed. He is right that many of the moa guarantees are dubiously written. He is also right there are a lot of claims of shooters doing moa when in reality they can only do it a fraction of the time, not consistently.I went back and watched the whole video and he admits near the end that sub MOA hunting guns exist. IMHO his premise that the "guarantee" is a hoax is really only about 1/2 true, I'm reminded of the scene in Tommy Boy.
They have to have some CYA wording in the warranty because it's easy to shoot over MOA without trying
Almost every rifle I own has occasionally shot moa or even sub moa groups, but there are a couple
that I would put up money that I can do it.
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Hugger-4641
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That's your opinion, fine if works for you, 3 shot groups work fine for me. I don't think I've ever shot at a single large game animal more than twice .
jmorris
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I’m not sure who all offers such a guarantee to be honest.
This might be the only one I own that does but I have lots that group even tighter than it does but it will do under an inch at 100.
I have a $299 after rebate savage 112 that’s pretty close even with WWB 55 gn FMJ. This is 5 shots at 300 yards with it.
Much better than MOA will OK projectiles, like these 5 68gn Hornady’s at the same 300 yards.
Awhile back, I sighted in an Academy “combo” Mossberg patriot/cheap glass in 30-06, for one of my wife’s friends. I was impressed it shot sub MOA out of the box with the first box of factory hunting ammo he grabbed. I have also shot several recent mfg Rugers that were well under MOA with factory ammunition.
It really seems to me that fit, finish and pretty was more of a concern in the past and “does its job good“ more of a concern these days but there have been advancements in machining technology for sure.
This might be the only one I own that does but I have lots that group even tighter than it does but it will do under an inch at 100.
I have a $299 after rebate savage 112 that’s pretty close even with WWB 55 gn FMJ. This is 5 shots at 300 yards with it.
Much better than MOA will OK projectiles, like these 5 68gn Hornady’s at the same 300 yards.
Awhile back, I sighted in an Academy “combo” Mossberg patriot/cheap glass in 30-06, for one of my wife’s friends. I was impressed it shot sub MOA out of the box with the first box of factory hunting ammo he grabbed. I have also shot several recent mfg Rugers that were well under MOA with factory ammunition.
It really seems to me that fit, finish and pretty was more of a concern in the past and “does its job good“ more of a concern these days but there have been advancements in machining technology for sure.
mcb
Member
I also like 5-shot groups for most of my testing but it is not totally true that 5-shot groups are the only valid size. Five one-shot groups can tell you as much as one five-shot groups assuming you measure them correctly. Most serious shooter want more than one group. Three three-shot groups tells you more than one five-shot group. The military used 10-shot groups to evaluate the latest generation of sniper rifles. They also required five consecutive 10-shot groups for most aspects of their evaluations. Depending on what your trying to determine groups size can vary a lot and still give meaningful information. Especially if your willing to do multiple groups. There is a huge body of statistical research about how many shots per groups and how many groups to be useful for some purpose. Basically to say groups a size has to be a specific size to be valid is rather short sighted and does not consider what is attempting to be learned.
i.e. for a new load for my USPSA/IDPA revolver I am going to shoot 6-shot or 8-shot groups just out of convenience and if a particular load produces two good groups in a row I am done. When I was testing 22LR ammo for my NRL22 rifle I shot ten 5-shot groups with both ammo types I was evaluating to determine which I like better. If I had simply compared the first 5-shot group from each I would have picked the other ammo due to the first group being really good but the other ammo shot a noticeable better average over 10 groups. I took a spill a couple years ago and my rifle took a pretty savage impact on the scope. Before I went back out after lunch I shot a one shot group and it told me all I needed to know, the rifle was fine and I keep hunting.
Turkeytider
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Absolutely. With a hunting rifle, what that cold bore shot does is, IMHO, THE most important thing. I would imagine that many, if not most, hunting rifles that most would consider to be good and accurate will start to string after 2-3 rounds in reasonably rapid succession.
Turkeytider
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I agree. Just probably need more 3 shot groups to get a fair assessment. 5 or so minimum. With a hunting rifle you`ll be resting that gun between groups. With a hunting rifle, I`m paying more attention to POA vs. POI than I am group size anyway.That's your opinion, fine if works for you, 3 shot groups work fine for me. I don't think I've ever shot at a single large game animal more than twice .
Ok but I'm just gonna multiply your group by 1.28 to get a fair claim for what a 5 shot group should be.That's your opinion, fine if works for you, 3 shot groups work fine for me. I don't think I've ever shot at a single large game animal more than twice .
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Hugger-4641
Member
I
Exactly what I do. I'm usually working with at least two rifles at a time. When I started this thread, I was zeroing in my CVA Optima, zeroing my A-bolt . 270, and testing some handloads in the X bolt, so each gun had plenty of time to cool between groups. Incidentally, the A bolt was hitting 1 1/4" groups with Winchester factory ammo.
MarshallDodge
Member
If I am looking for accuracy in a load, I shot a couple 5 shot groups. For basic sight in, or to verify zero, a 3 shot group works for me.
If I have confidence in the components, load, and firearm, 3 shots typically tells me what I need to know.
Confirming zero on my 6x47 Lapua with 3 shots, 115 Nosler RDF with RL16. Center impact is cold bore.
Confirming zero on my Tikka Master Sporter in 308W, 155 Bergers over N140.
The red dot is POA
If I have confidence in the components, load, and firearm, 3 shots typically tells me what I need to know.
Confirming zero on my 6x47 Lapua with 3 shots, 115 Nosler RDF with RL16. Center impact is cold bore.
Confirming zero on my Tikka Master Sporter in 308W, 155 Bergers over N140.
The red dot is POA
d2wing
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- Nov 10, 2008
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Some years I do hunt in sub-zero weather in Northern Minnesota as well. I don't love cold weather, but I prepare for it and don't let it stop me. Usually, it is above freezing on opening day though. I have posted Sub MOA groups a few times with factory rifles and ammunition. 2 Remington's, a Tikka and an AR or two. A couple .22 LRs at 50 yards as well. Last year I missed hunting due to a heart attack, and haven't shot much at all due to arthritis. But I am doing fine now and expect to prepare and go hunting this year. I also have rifles that shoot around 1.5 MOA or a little more which is acceptable for hunting with limits.
Yep I had some fun here a while back when I made the decision to switch a couple rifles to FFP scopes.
Testing prior to the scope change it had already shown a liking for CCI Standard Velocity, I guess this would count as either 3 each 5 round groups or 5 each 3 round groups as it's a 15 round group.
Although it's actually not quite MOA .27" group at 25 yards.
But after the scope change it's shoot one round measure with reticle adjust scope and fire 3 to verify
someguy2800
Member
The center dot is 7/8” so I think I just barely missed moa, but the pretty close.
The rifle is this lowly H&R ultra varmint I picked up this afternoon off the used rack at a local shop. I bought it to part out the scope and barrel and stock, but this is the best shooting H&R I’ve ever had so I should probably keep it. I’m really struggling with the factory 10 lb trigger so I’ll have to work on that and report back. Pretty sure H&R didn’t offer any 1 moa guarantees, so I guess I won’t get my money back just yet.
The rifle is this lowly H&R ultra varmint I picked up this afternoon off the used rack at a local shop. I bought it to part out the scope and barrel and stock, but this is the best shooting H&R I’ve ever had so I should probably keep it. I’m really struggling with the factory 10 lb trigger so I’ll have to work on that and report back. Pretty sure H&R didn’t offer any 1 moa guarantees, so I guess I won’t get my money back just yet.
MarshallDodge
Member
Range Buddy shows that you barely made it. That left to right pattern is a sign of a heavy trigger. 0.34 MOA Mean radius shows the rifle has some promise to be a half MOA gun.
What twist were those?
someguy2800
Member
Cool, I was guessing like 1.1 moa. Wouldn’t that have been funny if I had been there at the right time on the right day to take his $50 with an H&R single shot of all things?
I’m not sure on the twist. I used to have one that was 1:12 but this one looks like 1:9 just looking down the barrel. I wasn’t sure if it would stabilize 77 grain but I didn’t have anything lighter loaded.
I've heard rumors that that PSA ammo shoots good, guess that's some good affirmation there.
Trey Veston
Member
3-shot groups are mostly used by hunters to measure accuracy who use their rifles for actual hunting. Most hunting rifles have narrow barrel profiles in order to cut down on weight, hence they heat up faster and start to string after 3 shots.That's your opinion, fine if works for you, 3 shot groups work fine for me. I don't think I've ever shot at a single large game animal more than twice .
5-shot groups are typically used for benchrest guns that are either just used for target shooting or for varmint shooting and have thicker barrels that don't heat up as quickly.
But when it comes to real world use for hunting, 3-shot groups are the standard, and that first cold-bore shot is what counts.
