Super Redhawk or Super Blackhawk: 44, or 454/45

[hardluk1]

Good point . Buy some startline brass for the 454 and build up some mild loads for general use. Only one brass to mess with and no crud ring in the cylinder from shorter brass. Ops startine is back ordered on 454 till june 6th. Shop around. easy to get 45 cowboy type loads with trailboss powder and 44 mag power levels with tight group powders.

 

[Coal Dragger]

I will back up the recommendations to just buy .454 brass and load it down to get milder loads. It is stronger, won't crud up your chambers, and generally doesn't cost much more.

 

[98Redline]

If the rings on your 454 are still brand new, you can call Ruger up directly and ask for an exchange. They will exchange your 1" rings for 30mm ones normally for free.

If you don't have them or they are used, then you will probably end up needing to buy new rings.

I can't speak for the scope mounting but on top of a 454 I would definitely lean toward the Ultradot and stay away from the Bushnell. I don't have any experience with the Millett. My advise is to stick with proven performers in taking the severe recoil from these hard kicking hand cannons.

 

[FloriDave]

Why not get both styles
I love both of these 44 mags, but if I could only keep one, it would be the Super Redhawk.

As far as 454 vs 44, I have a long history and collection of other guns, bullets, brass, dies, etc in 44. Not in 45 colt or 454, so it's 44 mag for me. Also, I reload and can and do push the 44 to it's limits, and it certainly does everything I need it to do. That being said, if I didn't currently have either caliber and was starting from scratch, I'd probably get the 454.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks,

I thought about using 454 low power hand loads, but I think that will be signif more expensive, and more complicated to re-load. If I clean the cylendars, won't the 45lc hot loads be plenty for most game? And the cowboy soft 45's better and cheaper for target? Then I could clean and use 454 factory, or handloads when needed. Other views on this?

Also, an experienced handloader told me . "there is no such thing as 45lc +P" but there are hot 45lc loads that are quiote capable of getting the job done.
What does he mean? Is there a technical definition of +P?

Also, on sights, I am leaning to red dot to get started, as my best shots will probably be under 75 yrds the first season or 2. Will the Ultradot 30, if I get the ruger 30mm rings, fit on the SRHH integral mounting system? There is not alot of space there. Also? other red dots 2 consider? Bushnell trophy? Millet?

 

[firesky101]

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

I do not think SAAMI has a spec for .45 colt +P, so really it is .45 colt +P+. The issue I have always heard from Freedom arms owners is that .45 colt +P+ is not recommended in a .454 casull is the possibility of flame erosion in your chambers just in front of the cartridge mouth. Then you put .454 in and the brass expands into the valleys which causes problems. Not an issue with standard pressure .45 colt, but if you are going to hot rod .454 brass will keep your mind at ease.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks,

I thought about using 454 low power hand loads, but I think that will be signif more expensive, and more complicated to re-load. (edited for brevity)

What makes you think so?

Loading .454 Casull to 45 Colt specs is no more difficult than loading .357 brass to 38 special specs. Because of the extra case volume you will need the tiniest bit of extra powder, but the difference is tiny.

The brass IS significantly more expensive to buy, but spread out over the lifespan of the brass, may go either way.

Lost Sheep

 

[Coal Dragger]

Starline brass in. 454 is pretty reasonable, and so far I have had good results with it. Down loading is not difficult at all. Loading manuals have plenty of data for reduced loads.

 

[Huntolive]

Ok,
so what is the advantage of using the 454 brass for reduced loads, instead of the 45lc hot loads? Other than avoiding the "crud ring"?
Is there any advantage to using 45LC rather than 454 for some applications?

also, 98 Redline, how about the Ultradot 1" ? I have 1" rings: simlplicity... ;-)
Any REAL reason to go 30mm?

Also, odd ball question, I now have a Judge: can it take any hot 45loads?
Or just cowboy?

 

[56hawk]

Also, odd ball question, I now have a Judge: can it take any hot 45loads?
Or just cowboy?

My understanding is that it cannot handle +P 45 Colt loads. This is a very good reason to not use 45 Colt brass for a 454. It would be too easy to accidentally slip a hot loaded 45 Colt into the Judge and blow the gun up.

 

[Hammerdown77]

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

I do not think SAAMI has a spec for .45 colt +P, so really it is .45 colt +P+. The issue I have always heard from Freedom arms owners is that .45 colt +P+ is not recommended in a .454 casull is the possibility of flame erosion in your chambers just in front of the cartridge mouth. Then you put .454 in and the brass expands into the valleys which causes problems. Not an issue with standard pressure .45 colt, but if you are going to hot rod .454 brass will keep your mind at ease.

I thought this too (flame erosion), but I think the actual problem is that the carbon ring inside the chamber attracts moisture, and that is what causes the etching. At the 60k and higher pressures the Casull operates, the brass case will flow into this etched ring and then make it hard to extract fired cases.

Bob Baker said this might not be a problem if you live in a very dry climate, or clean the gun immediately after shooting, but that they had seen the problem enough in their repair shop to feel justified in making the blanket statement that they "don't recommend it".

 

[Coal Dragger]

Plus why bother keeping two kinds of brass around when one type will do? Simple is good!

 

[Prosser]

I'm not loading hot .45 Colt anymore. When I was the advantage was the relatively limited .454 bullets. WAY more .45 Colt bullets, and some of these sat out too far in .454 brass giving OAL too long for the guns.

The shorter case does make lower loads easier to deal with, with less threat of detonation, etc.and uses a bit less powder. If you are shooting lower power loads the advantage can also be better accuracy. For ideal accuracy you want a powder that fills the case as much as possible, leaving little room for the powder to shift, ignite differently. This leads to consistent combustion and excellent accuracy.

Has the .454 premium cost gone away yet? Back then if it said .454 it was twice the cost of .45 Colt. Has this changed? Component wise?

"Also, I am in market for a CC and trail gun that is durable, and will stop both a man, black bear, and could be used on occassion to take a deer under 50 yards w/ open sights."

It looks with this area you are going to be loading relatively light bullets.
I suspect you might go down as low as 230 grains, with a maximum of 260 for bullet weight.

I always felt a 230 grain hardball .45 ACP bullet would be effective on the above, lead cast, when pushed at 1800 fps out of my .45 Seville.
At the time, the bullets were south of .05 cents each.

If you can find something in that bullet weight range, with an LFN bullet design, and cast VERY hard, with no gas check, or, softer with a gas
check, you are golden. Get velocity over 1350 fps and the bullet will deform
a bit when it hits, giving a slight mushroom effect, and a large wound channel. It will also be pleasant to shoot. When the bullet weight goes up, the recoil goes into the "it isn't easy or really fun zone" fast.

There are going to be others that tell you that the 300-325 grain bullets are
easy to push to nearly the same speeds, and kill like Thor's Hammer.
They are right. Cost is recoil and usually bullet cost.

It's possible to find relatively cheap bullets in the .45 ACP bullet range.
Once you go out of that range the cost goes up considerably.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks. but I am also getting 500 rounds of standard 45lc w/ the gun; guess I'll just use those in the Judge.

Seems like there are divergent views on this. Some say that bigger bullets, above 250 grns push smoother and produce less harsh recoil. I was thinking of a 300 grn 45lc at about 1200 fps. Isn't it the velocity that causes most of the nastier recoil elements?

Is this thing about using the 454 exclusively something specific to the SRH? Because, many folks have also recommended using all 45lc, and only very ocassional 454, both those familiar and unfamiliar w/ the SRH in question.

If I am willing to clean out crud ring ocassionally, I still don't see why I would use 454 all the time, even toned down. Those cartridges don't seem designed for that.

Feel free to educate me.

 

[Prosser]

There aren't many different views of physics. SRH weighs 3.3125 pounds or so.

Go here to recoil calculator:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

Start punching in numbers.
325 grains 1200 fps:
Recoil Energy of 19 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.
300 grains 1200 fps:
Recoil Energy of 16 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.
260 grains 1200:
Recoil Energy of 13 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.
230 grains @ 1200 fps:
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 14 fps.

The only thing other then physics that is a variable is the speed of the powder exploding, and the amount.

A fast burning powder can have a sharper felt recoil, since it quickly reaches peak pressure. The tradeoff is often you use half the powder amount of a slower burning powder and that compensates for the sudden feeling of
the quick explosion.

To be real for heavier bullets you generally are always using slow burning powders. Lighter bullets faster powders, since the bullet doesn't provide enough resistance to give the slow powder to reach maximum pressure.

There are exceptions to these general rules.

At a certain point in bullet weight it doesn't matter what powder you are using for a given velocity, it just flat out kicks HARD.
YMMV.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Ok,
so what is the advantage of using the 454 brass for reduced loads, instead of the 45lc hot loads? Other than avoiding the "crud ring"?
Is there any advantage to using 45LC rather than 454 for some applications?

Simplicity of inventory control. If you only have 454 brass you have one less bin on your shelf. Since 1975, I have never owned any 38 special, though I shoot a LOT of 800 to 900 fps 158 grain slugs out of my .357 ,agnum guns. If course, it helps that I don't own any 45 Colt or 38 special guns.

For individual applications, there is not much difference (aside from the crud ring), but the assurance of not slipping a 45 Colt +p into a gun not strong enough for it is plenty incentive for me.

If I owned any 38 Special, 44 Special or 45 Colt guns, I would never load any +p loads in those chamberings. Safety. All +p loads would go into the longer brass.

I am not arrogant enough to believe I cannot make a mistake or two. With double checks, single mistakes can be caught. Double mistakes (over a couple of decades) can catch up to me, and I don't want to be caught.

I don't wear a safety belt asleep in my bed, but if I see a simple step to more protection/safety, I take it. Not making +p loads is simple if I already have the magnum chambering.

That's just how I work. You can develop your own safety procedures. If and when I get a 45 Colt or 38 Special, I will adapt.

Lost Sheep

 

[Prosser]

You might also check on primers. Since .454 uses small rifle primers,
I'd rather use the .45 Colt brass and the variety of pistol primers around.

IIRC, pistol primers are generally softer, easier to fire, and require less hammer striking pressure, that may translate into being able to get a better trigger on your SRH. SRH's aren't exactly known for light trigger pulls, and the .454 part of the equation, along with the rifle primers, maybe part of the reason for that.

If you need .454 case capacity in the .45 LC case, just seat the bullet out further. That's how the bullets are designed anyway.

I can't speak to the strength of the .454 cases. It would make sense that
.454 brass would have thicker walls due to the insane SAAMI spec for .454.

This might be a major plus for case life in a tight chambered .454.

It seems 5 pounds or more is the stock .454 trigger pull to consistently ignite
small rifle primers. I know that's what the FA's are at, but, they do do a trigger job to around 3 pounds as well.??

I will say that with a Linebaugh tight chamber 6 shot I don't think I ever had a brass problem using .45 Colt cases. Ruger isn't known for tight specs
on nearly anything, so your SRH might have oversized chambers, inconsistent chambers, etc. YMMV.

 

[Huntolive]

Ok, the safety and simplicity thing makes sense to just use 454 brass, with downloaded rounds. Plus, I avoid the crud ring.

But, someone mentioned that without filling the case w/ powder, that this could lead to loss of accuracy! How much do I need to worry about that, and how is that avoided? Perhaps by using slighly more slower burning powder, and a slightly heavier bullet?

For safety, if hand loading hot 45lc, I could just store that in a separate marked box. So if anyone thinkls this is crazy to use all 454, instead of mostly hot 45LC, and ocassional 454, as I had originally planned, please speak up.

Thanks!

 

[Prosser]

.45/454 are both good sized cases. With slower burning H110 and 4227 even a minimum charge is going to be a pretty full case.

I recently tried using AA 9 minimum loads in .475 and .500 Linebaugh. I had some pretty wide variations in velocity.

I can remember, sort of, having problems with faster burning powders in the .45 Colt case. Very big case, and some of the faster powders allowed double charging by accident, without being noticed, until you pulled the trigger. Only
happened once. I made sure from that point on that I used powders and charges that would overflow the case if double charged.

I settled on HS 6 for my lighter loads, and stayed with H110 and 4227 for the heavier loads.

I suspect with the current cheap chronographs we notice speed variations
that back in my day required a very expensive chronograph to discover.

I'm not really sure how much you are going to notice out of a SRH.

Not real sure what the SRH is able to shoot with ideal ammunition.

Custom big guns, with proper ammo, match grade barrels, will shoot one hole at 25 yards, cloverleaf at 50, and 2-3" at 100 yards, or better.

Due to that potential, the smaller details can become noticeable in such guns. Don't know how that will be with the SRH.

I do know of a bunch of folks that swear by their custom SRH's, with match grade barrels, and dot sites they drive tacks with them.

Before you decide on brass:

Get the gun, shoot it, and see if you are happy with the trigger pull. If not, and you want a trigger job done:

get a hold of a gunsmith that does custom work on SRH's, like Jack Huntington(JRH Custom Gunsmithing). Ask him if it makes a difference in trigger pull using the small rifle primer vs. the pistol primer in doing the trigger
job.

In other words if you are going to use the .454 brass, with small pistol primers, is this going to mean the hammer has to strike harder, springs have to be stiffer, and the trigger pull has to be higher with the .454
then it would using .45 Colt and pistol primers?

I don't know, but it's worth checking before you make the decision.

Also compare magnum Pistol primers with Small rifle primers cost wise.

Another consideration would be having the chambers checked prior to buying the .454. Ruger has never been known for tight tolerances on their big guns. If the chambers are oversized, the brass expands more then it should,
and it can be hard to resize. IF the chamber is too large, that might be the chamber that has sticky brass.

One advantage of the .44 magnum in a ruger is if the chambers are cut too big, you can always ream it out to .45 Colt and rebarrel.

 

[Hammerdown77]

I think the chambers in my SRH are a little oversize. I've split several cases from lots of FACTORY ammo. None yet with my hand loads, but I ain't running them full tilt all the time either. At a certain loading the cases start to stick pretty good on extraction, and I load a touch under that (or wherever the best accuracy is).

 

[Lost Sheep]

Feel free to educate me.

Thanks, I will try.

If I am willing to clean out crud ring ocassionally, I still don't see why I would use 454 all the time, even toned down. Those cartridges don't seem designed for that.

Clean out the crud ring constantly, assiduously. You should be doing that anyway, but it is easier the sooner you do it after shooting-some even do it while the gun is still warm from the range.

True, those cartridges aren't "designed" for light loads, but they stand up to that loading just fine. Light loading of fast powders is not all that problematic.

Is this thing about using the 454 exclusively something specific to the SRH? Because, many folks have also recommended using all 45lc, and only very ocassional 454, both those familiar and unfamiliar w/ the SRH in question.

Not specific to the Ruper Redhawk. Any 454 chamber, or any chamber longer than the shorter cartridge (.357 Mag/38 Special, 44 Magnum/44 Special, same principle) has the exact same issues.

The 454 does have relatively higher pressures than the 45 Colt when you compare to the 44 Special v 44 Mag. 17k to 40k where the 45 Colt v 454 Casull is 14k to 48k. Now that I type it, it doesn't seem that much a difference. The 44 is 2.35:1 and the 45 is 3.42:1. The 454 is using rifle primers when fully loaded, so you be the "Judge".

You can go either way. I chose to go all the longer case, no matter the power level. Since you do have a 45 Colt not safe with +P loads, your decision is a bit more complex, but if I were you I would load 45 Colt to 45 Colt specs, NEVER +P and if I wanted to shoot 45 Colt power loads in the SRH, I would load light in 454 Cases. The brass just fits the chamber dimensions better. Less "jump" in freebore to the rifling, less cleaning effort (note that I did not say "less cleaning", but just less EFFORT).

That is what I do with 44, as I own no 44 Special guns and have never owned a 44 special piece of brass. With 38, I did have a small supply of 38 Special cases that I used until I wore them out (in 1975-76). But I do own one 45 Colt revolver. With my 45 Colt brass and two 454 guns and one Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt (which is OK for 45 Colt +p) my choice is more complex, so I have an inventory of both sizes of brass.

What I am saying is, what any of us do may serve as a guide for you, but ultimately you must decide which of our reasons for our choices are applicable to your situation and gives you an acceptable assurance that you will never bluw up your Taurus with a +p load intended for your SRH.

You have one SAAMI spec 45 Colt and one +P 45 Colt / 454 Casull gun. I would do whatever it took to GUARANTEE there COULD NEVER BE a +P 45 Colt slip into my SAAMI spec gun.

Seems like there are divergent views on this. Some say that bigger bullets, above 250 grns push smoother and produce less harsh recoil. I was thinking of a 300 grn 45lc at about 1200 fps. Isn't it the velocity that causes most of the nastier recoil elements?

Bullet weight and velocity have a large influence on felt recoil. Powder quickness and peak pressure also has an influence. I don't understand it, but it has been testified to (and I have to accept it on face value for now) that if you load a fast powder (say, Unique to a given velocity with a particular weight bullet and load that same bullet with a slower powder (2400 or Lil'Gun) to the same velocity, the Unique load will produce fiercer recoil than the slower powder.

Check this recent thread from another forum
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488372

Yes, velocity and bullet weight have the most influence on recoil, but they are not the only factors and may be able to be outweighed by those other factors. Like I said, I don't understand it, but I am working on it.

I hope my thoughts are helpful.

Lost Sheep

 

[Coal Dragger]

Prosser,

I had a chance to handle a Freedom Arms that had an action job done on it a few weeks ago, honestly the main spring didn't feel much softer to me although the entire action was smoother overall. The trigger pull weight was lighter than mine by a bit. I would venture a guess that mine is around 4.5lbs, and the tuned action was maybe 1lb lower. One advantage a single action has is the relatively massive hammer doesn't need as much speed as the smaller hammer on some double actions to ignite a primer. I doubt the SRH would be affected much since the hammer is pretty beefy too.

I liked the tuned FA enough to want it done to mine, along with an over travel stop. I have been tild that the triggers are heavier from the factory to accommodate use with gloves. Not sure how accurate a statement that is, my own guess is that it is a liability issue.

 

[Coal Dragger]

For really light plinking loads in .454 brass another good candidate is IMR Trail Boss. It will completely fill the case and offer light recoil. You couldn't double charge one if you wanted to.

 

[Prosser]

CD:
I have two, both with triggers slightly under 3 pounds, done by JRH Advanced Gunsmithing.

I was just wondering about the hardness of the .454 Small rifle primers.

Wyoming is cold, and I can see a 5 pound trigger in that state.

It is sad in a way, since the trigger effects the accuracy of these incredible guns. Still, they are hunting guns and the trigger, if I think a bit heavy, is still VERY crisp and breaks like a glass rod.

I think it may help primarily FA's bottom line, since the trigger job is near 100 bucks. Still, I can see the legal point that now the trigger pressure is a feature the owner clearly decided to add, not the factory.

The fact that the safety on the FA 83 is pretty much don't carry with a hammer down on a loaded chamber, so it's really a 4 shot gun. I carry mine at the slight cock safety position, and pray I never have it AD.

 

[Huntolive]

Sincere thanks Lost Sheep, CD, Pros, etc for your advice and exp.

I am on a steep learning curve, but am committed to re-loading.
I see the points about 454 brass.

The only thing this has me thinking, is, maybe I should settle for the 44Mag. SRHH instead! ;-)

But is the 454 any harder to handload than the 44 Mag?