Super Redhawk or Super Blackhawk: 44, or 454/45

[Boxhead]

"If I had a nickel for every time I heard that...."

You would be unemployed, in fact never considered, in my organization as we hire contractor's to do such work. Really, a stupid phuck remark from a techie. Back to AutoCAD...

 

[Huntolive]

Insights and Insults...

Well, that last round stirred some lively debate, and kicked up some good info on scopes and sights.

Thanks to those who shared useful info.
Some red dots offer 2X magnification. Could I consider these? I have used such on blackpowder.

Seems I should stay away from 4X in any case, yes?
At 2X, it seems so little mag. that maybe just go w/ reflex/no mag red dot, instead of actual scope.
What about 3X that could be good on the SBHH?

98Redline, I'm glad you didn't give up on us, as I value your practical advice. Price/ info on ultradot matchdot?

Greg528iT, info on Burris fastfire? And could that work on SBHH 44mag?

Kernel, and CraigC, etc. please offer advice on a scope for SBHH.

Likewise, Coal Dragger, etc. best ideas on reflex/reddot for 454SRHH?

My idea is to get the 454 asap, and try iron sights and a reflex/red dot.
Then get SBHH and use scope (probably).
The DA SRH just seems more of and up-and-at-em gun, while the SBHH seems more ammenable to rest and scope. Yes?

Also, what are folks thoughts on Prosser's idea to get 454 and just shoot 45lc?
Prosser how do i maximize that for deer, without breaking the bank if not re-loading? powerful 45lc seems 2 b as pricey as 454.

 

[Greg528iT]

As an engineer, well ok, actually in real life there are plenty I wouldnt trust too far. The point being, look at the actual physics of it. Yes big bore revolvers kick big, but the start stop acceleration of a slide would destroy something pretty fast.

As for the Burris Fast Fire, I bought mine thru Primary Arms, they did me good. Burris, has many different mounts for many different guns. I'm sure they'll have something for you.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Greg528iT,

While you are correct about violent reciprocation of an auto slide being hard on optics mounted to the slide, you might take into account that other than today's crop of rugged miniature reflex sights; most optics are not mounted directly to the slide. Instead they are mounted to the frame with the slide reciprocating freely underneath, like on a race gun. The little reflex sights are tough, and since they weigh virtually nothing there is not nearly as much mass there that must come to a stop and reverse directions quickly.

Additionally you might not be talking into account just how violent recoil on a big bore revolver can be, I have shot .454 ammunition that left my palms stinging and you can bet that shock would travel into the optics mounted up top. Additionally big bore revolvers shooting full house loads are notorious for lots and lots of muzzle blast, and that overpressure area at the muzzle is not so conveniently located right where the objective lens of most pistol scopes is going to be located. Good optics will hold up to this, but cheap ones not so much.

 

[Greg528iT]

As I said, I have the burris mounted dirrectly to the slide. Yes, there are frame mounts for for autos, but I was specifically talking about a reflex mounted to the slide and the accelleration and deceleration of said slide. I in no way questioned the amount of recoil of a big bore revolver. I dont even want to think about about all that energy being pushed into a shooters hands, wrists, elbows. I am just saying, if a reflex sight can survive on the slamming stop of a slide, and we already know optics survive on big bore pistol, a reflex can survive on a big bore revolver quite well.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Little reflex sights absolutely should be more durable; I thought, and others may have too, that you were talking about larger scopes.

 

[98Redline]

I can't speak to the reflex sights as I mentioned, I don't have one yet, however if you take a look at the forums where the guys shooting the really....really big boomers (50 Alaskan, 500L, 45-70 BFR, etc...) hang out, when it comes to tubular dot sights, the Ultradot sights win out almost 10 to 1.

I have never heard anyone say that an Ultradot didn't hold zero ever after years of use getting hammered by the rounds mentioned above. Couple that with Ultradot's lifetime warranty and they are hard to beat. Cost wise, my Matchdot was right around $200, however if I were to buy one again, I would probably go with the Ultradot 30 (30mm tube, 4 MOA dot). I find that I really don't need the adjustable dot size of the Matchdot and primarily shoot at the 4 MOA size all of the time.

Prior to getting my Ultradot I did look around for other alternatives, including ones with magnification and what I found is that there was not a quality, magnified red dot sight made that provided the eye relief required for pistol shooting and would hold up to the hammering a pistol will doll out. Sure there is the ACOG which is a great sight, but they are designed with eye relief for AR style rifles. That and the fact that they are 1200 bucks.
The other thing to take into consideration is the type of recoil the scope is designed for. Rifles come more straight back that up, so scopes designed for rifles are designed to tolerate more axial type recoil. A Revolver provides much more vertical acceleration than axial, especially true with a 44 mag and up. Scopes not designed for this type of recoil will be not long for this world.

I honestly don't feel handicapped in any way with a non magnified sight. As I mentioned in the thread above, with a 4 moa dot, and a good solid rest, my SBHH will shoot 4" groups without a problem at 100 yards. At 120 yards I can easily hit a pie plate every time. All of this is under controlled conditions at a range. In the field I don't think I would try a shot longer than about 75 yards.

If you are intent on stretching the legs of the 454 out beyond 100 then there are better tools out there. I would say that for those kinds of distances in the field you are in the realm where guns like the contender and encore reign supreme. There are some that can shoot in the field to those distance with a revolver but the fact is that most of us can't, thus the need for better long range tools.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks guys!

98Redline, thanks about Ultradot 30. I take it that is cheaper than Matchdot?
I guess it is also lighter than a scope w/ glass, thus easier to maitain steady fre-hand firing position, and more handy in the field? If I like the DA option, do you think I should consider just getting 1 gun, the SRHH 44Mag? Rather than 454 DA and SBHH 44mag when $ recouperates?

Everybody, thoughts on that?

One scope that is well reviewed and claims durabilty and design for 454 recoil is Bushnell 3200 elite, 2x-6x, cost: $299. Thoughts?

Specific recs. on rugged reflex sights?

Any other experience on using 454 just w/ 45lc? Seems like if that is my plan, just get SRH 44Mag.

 

[Greg528iT]

you will not go wrong with the 44 Mag.

It's very versatile.

SRHH 44 MAg, and a good scope (or red dot) BE HAPPY AND HUNTING

 

[Prosser]

I've had a Leupold 2x on my .475 Worked but I don't like scopes on handguns. On the otherhand that might be because I didn't give it enough of a chance. Also the grips were too small at the time.

I thought the 3200 was crystal clear and a great value, so I have 3, but all on rifles. So far they stand up to a 375 and 30-06.

I recommended the 454 because I think that's a good price on the Ruger SRH. It is in my area if I could ever find one used. Keep in mind Kali prices are a couple hundred more for most guns used, as a general rule.

I think with either caliber if you intend to shoot them a lot you need a reloading setup. .44 and .45/454 aren't cheap.

I found being able to use the .45 ACP bullets, along with the wide variety of .45 ACP bullets a big plus in reloading plinking or even deer ammo. A 260 grain LFN in .45 Colt is effective deer medicine at even 1100 fps.

Do you live in a Wyoming like area that requires long range high velocity flat shooting handguns?

 

[Coal Dragger]

For those of us that do a flatter trajectory is nice. I live in the Black Hills, so U have both closer range hunting, and longer shots available and likely. Just depends on what area I am hunting in. That is one reason I selected the .454 but not the primary reason.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks,

Have researched and found all good things about Ultradot 30 ($150) for either gun.
Also like Bushnell 3200 Elite Pistol scope 2X-6X if getting scope ($299), also checks out good. Anybody else with experience w/ these or better for cheaper?

These would be going on SRHH or SBHH 454 or 44mag.

No, I live in VA, most shots 50-200 yrds. But I don't imagine anyone is recommending using any of these revolvers for much beyond 100 yrds, regardless of where you live, right?
I will probably limit first season to 50 yrd shots.
Therefore, since the effective practical range of either revolver for game is about 100yrds, does the 454 really offer any advantage over 44mag for whitetails?
Or does 454 actually get you out there significantly farther with enough practice?

The more I think about it, the more it seems i could do fine w/ just the SRHH in 44Mag (1gun), but I am having a REALLY hard time walking away from the SRHH454 for $550. I feel like if I bought the 454 now, as it will not be available forever, that I would need to add the 44mag later, especially for long-term affordability of 44ammo. But can't seem to rationally justify the 454, as much as I want it... ;-) Could I be equally ok with just the 454 (or even better off) if I shoot only to train for hunting and for hunting? Or do i need to walk away? Or grab it, and worry about long term ammo costs and other guns a year or 2 from now... ?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks,

Have researched and found all good things about Ultradot 30 ($150) for either gun.
Also like Bushnell 3200 Elite Pistol scope 2X-6X if getting scope ($299), also checks out good. Anybody else with experience w/ these or better for cheaper?

These would be going on SRHH or SBHH 454 or 44mag.

No, I live in VA, most shots 50-200 yrds. But I don't imagine anyone is recommending using any of these revolvers for much beyond 100 yrds, regardless of where you live, right?
I will probably limit first season to 50 yrd shots.
Therefore, since the effective practical range of either revolver for game is about 100yrds, does the 454 really offer any advantage over 44mag for whitetails?
Or does 454 actually get you out there significantly farther with enough practice?

The more I think about it, the more it seems i could do fine w/ just the SRHH in 44Mag (1gun), but I am having a REALLY hard time walking away from the SRHH454 for $550. I feel like if I bought the 454 now, as it will not be available forever, that I would need to add the 44mag later, especially for long-term affordability of 44ammo. But can't seem to rationally justify the 454, as much as I want it... ;-) Could I be equally ok with just the 454 (or even better off) if I shoot only to train for hunting and for hunting? Or do i need to walk away? Or grab it, and worry about long term ammo costs and other guns a year or 2 from now... ?

My suggestion:

Take enough money for the 454 and 20 boxes of ammunition. But instead of ammunition, get 500 bullets, 500 primers, 100 cases, two pounds of powder. It will cost the same and you will be free of the high cost of ammunition forever. Also, you can load from mild 45 Colt loads to full-power 454 Casull loads, whatever you like.

The justification for my suggesting you go for the 454? You hanker for it. If you don't get it now, you will never lose the desire. If you load your own, the difference between the ammo cost is nil.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

 

[CraigC]

The Bushnell Elite is the old Bausch & Lomb line and they are excellent. However, a big 2-6x variable is a big waste on a revolver. I stand firmly behind the statement that a good 2x is much more useful than a red dot. IMHO, those who think otherwise have probably never spent enough time with one. I've been using them for at least 15yrs and through practice, you will find they are almost as quick to acquire as a red dot.

I don't really know what a screaming deal that .454 is, for I paid $560 for my .480 six years ago, brand new.

Therefore, since the effective practical range of either revolver for game is about 100yrds, does the 454 really offer any advantage over 44mag for whitetails?

None whatsoever. The .454 was a wonderful academic exercise and while lots of folks love it, it really does not offer anything useful for the average shooter/hunter. In very skilled hands it can be stretched to 150yds with full-house loads but very few hunters can utilize the horsepower. So if you can't use it, why beat yourself up?

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks,

Craig C, etc, what scope do you rec? If I can get a Quality 2X or 3X for less $ I might. If no, Bushnell mentioned seems good.
I know I will do virtually no shooting at 6X, but could be helpful for scouting. Disadvantages of having the extra mag. capability offered by the 3200 elite pistol scope mounted on revolver? Or is it just overkill?

Lost Sheep, etc, re. reloading, makes sense to break the ice right out of the box, but my understanding is that even reloading, 44mag would be easier and cheaper. I also have a friend who has reloading equ. for 44Mag I could use.

As for hankerin for 454, I get that, but the real attraction to the 454 was I can get from friend for $550. Then I got sold at first on it being smarter, as with 45lc, I had low end covered, and with 454, I had anything else covered. I originally was hot for 44Mag. SRHH. Also, 44sp is option.
It seems after further research that even for bear, elk, moose, should I need to defend against one, or choose to hunt them that the right loads in 44Mag would be sufficient. Yes? No?

If my friend had had a 44mag SRHH on hand, I would have bought it on the spot. Later it seemed attractive to have 2 guns, one SBHH in 44mag, and the used affordable DA SRHH 454. On second thought, for developing accuracy, it might be best to just master 1 gun, and since I like the DA capability, that would mean either SRH 454 or SRH 44mag. But who likes paying retail... ;-)

Some have said get the 454 and just shoot 45lc. Does that really make sense? How could that be the right way to go?

Thoughts?

 

[Huntolive]

Then again, I'll probably want more guns eventually... ;-)

Have recently considered 44Mag DA SRH w/ shorter brl, that could still serve for hunting, and trail gun.
Say 5.5". But like the design of the SRHH, with its integral scope mount system.
How much of a pain would it be to instead, get a non-hunter model as my second gun, and mount mounts and optics to it?
This would be instead of getting 44Mag SRHH. Good idea? Bad idea? Longer barrel worth carrying around?

Thanks for puting up w/ me,
And Happy Hunting!

 

[Steve in PA]

Sorry, but I love a 2-6x on my SRH. It's the versatility that I love. If you want to limit yourself to 2x, then that's your business. But I like being able to crank the scope up to 6x if I need the extra magnification.

When hunting, the scope is usually set at 2x, maybe once in a while 3x. I use 6x when at the range.

My primary hunting firearm for deer and bear.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks,

Lost Sheep, etc, re. reloading, makes sense to break the ice right out of the box, but my understanding is that even reloading, 44mag would be easier and cheaper. I also have a friend who has reloading equ. for 44Mag I could use.

True, but not by much. The difference in primers is zero. Small rifle primers for the 454, Large pistol for the 44 Mag and 45 Colt. The difference for brass for 45 Colt vs 44 mag is near zero and possibly near zero for 454 Casull if you load it down to 44 Mag power levels. (While 454 costs more, loaded down, they will last through more loading cycles.) Powder cost and bullet cost probably 10% to 15% more for the 454 Casull than for the 44 Magnum at most.

Just my thumbnail calculation.

Some have said get the 454 and just shoot 45lc. Does that really make sense? How could that be the right way to go?

Yes, it does make sense.

With the 454 Casull, you can load the 45 Colt brass to power levels unheard of in standard firearms chambered for the 45 Colt. Whether beefed-up 45 Colt loads (suitable for Ruger, Thompson-Contender and other, stronger firearms) are equal to, lesser than or greater than 44 Magnum is a subject of some debate, but it is beyond debate that the 454 Casull runs close to 25% or more power than the 44 Magnum.

The part that makes sense is that a little more expense for ammunition (10% to 15%, as I calculated above) and you get a gun/cartridge combination with more versatility (range of power levels). If the 454 is more power than you expect to use, then the 44 is the way to go. If you will be using factory ammo, the 44 is probably a better choice (because of cost).

Lost Sheep

 

[CraigC]

Craig C, etc, what scope do you rec?

A Burris or Leupold 2x. No more, no less.

If you want to limit yourself to 2x, then that's your business.

What I like to limit is weight and bulk. Variables are much heavier, much larger and have a lot more internal parts to go wrong. They also cost a lot more. Sometimes less is more and this is one of those situations. You might occasionally crank up to 6x to justify your purchase but there is no "need" for 6x on a revolver. I can shoot MOA at 100yds with buckhorn sights so there is no problem shooting at 100yds with a 2x scope. Not that I've been there and done that or anything.

Now compare the relative size of this Burris 2-7x to the 2x I pictured on the Bisley Hunter.

 

[Huntolive]

Srhh 9"

New possibility: I will get a SRHH or SBHH w/ 7.5" brl as prev. discussed.
Turns out my friend/neighbor has both presses and dyes for 44mag, 44sp and 45colt that I can use. Would all I would need for 454 be the dyes?

He and I are leaning towards 44Mag. But the 45colt dyes are there for 454 if mostly shooting 45. So re-loading is now the way I will go w/ either cal.

But the big new question is about 9" brl SRHH in 44mag, which has become available as part of a package deal that includes a SBHH 7.5" 44mag Bisley, both with Leupold scopes, and Magna ported barrels. All new, never fired together for $1500.

My question is feasability of 9" SRHH, which striks me as almost getting to rifle size, and cumbersome, but what the hell do i know, I havn't held one. Are they harder to keep steady freehand?
I have fired the 454 and 45 7.5"SRHH. What are pros/cons of 9"?

One other thing I need to confirm: if I want to go for moose, black bear or elk ocassionally, can I do that beyond a shadow of a doubt w/ 44Mag?
Or would I truly need the 454?

 

[JEB]

One other thing I need to confirm: if I want to go for moose, black bear or elk ocassionally, can I do that beyond a shadow of a doubt w/ 44Mag?
Or would I truly need the 454?

i would say that the .44 mag should be plenty. really it all comes down to you waiting for the right moment at the right range and putting the bullet right where it needs to be. i honestly dont think that a bad shot with the .44 mag on any of these animals would be made any better if it had been the .454 instead. IMHO, the shooter's ability will limit the range at which you can take game much sooner than the ability of the cartridge will.

 

[trapper500]

Ruger Super Redhawk 9.5" 44 Mag

I will stick with my trusty 44 mag SRH 9.5" LOVE IT

 

[Lost Sheep]

New possibility: I will get a SRHH or SBHH w/ 7.5" brl as prev. discussed.
Turns out my friend/neighbor has both presses and dyes for 44mag, 44sp and 45colt that I can use. Would all I would need for 454 be the dyes?

He and I are leaning towards 44Mag. But the 45colt dyes are there for 454 if mostly shooting 45. So re-loading is now the way I will go w/ either cal.

But the big new question is about 9" brl SRHH in 44mag, which has become available as part of a package deal that includes a SBHH 7.5" 44mag Bisley, both with Leupold scopes, and Magna ported barrels. All new, never fired together for $1500.

My question is feasability of 9" SRHH, which striks me as almost getting to rifle size, and cumbersome, but what the hell do i know, I havn't held one. Are they harder to keep steady freehand?
I have fired the 454 and 45 7.5"SRHH. What are pros/cons of 9"?

One other thing I need to confirm: if I want to go for moose, black bear or elk ocassionally, can I do that beyond a shadow of a doubt w/ 44Mag?
Or would I truly need the 454?

JEB is right. Poor shot placement will be equally ineffective with the 44 as with the 454. However, the heavier bullet (all other things being equal) will generally penetrate deeper to get into the vital organs of a thick-skinned, heavily muscled animal like a bear. Breaking bone is easier done with a heavier bullet, too.

A lot can be done by choosing bullet construction, though, so the 44 vs 45 debate continues (see many raging arguments over the comparison between 44 Mag and 45 Colt, loaded to maximums). But when you throw the 454 into the mix, the Casull comes out on top. But only if you don't lose accuracy with the recoil. So, your ability to place your shots WITH YOUR HUNTING LOAD always comes first. Bullet construction and weight next and caliber last.

By the way, the 45 Colt dies will PROBABLY do for the 454 Casull, just as most 38 Special dies will do for the 357 Mag. (By the way, "dyes" are for coloring cloth and paint and such. "Dies" are for forming metal.)

Good hunting.

Lost Sheep

 

[Huntolive]

Ok, so 44Mag. is plenty, and has many fully capable bullet options.
454 could help in puting down big game, unless it makes you flinch and reduces accuracy. But 454 size/power will not make up for sloppy shooting.
Anybody disagree about that last part?

As for comparative recoil, I have shot mid-range 454, and while it produced more muzzle blast, the recoil was not overwhelming.
How does mid-range 454 compare in recoil to the type of 44 Mag loads rec. for large game like moose/black bear?

As to 45lc +P out of the SRHH454, what is the effect of the "lower pressure"
that some have referred to. Why would this help? Does it mean that you can fire a bigger, heavier bullet with more knockdown power and less recoil than a 44Mag?

More thoughts on the 9" SRHH 44mag?
I would prefer a 7.5", but I am responding to what is available discount, not just my dreams.

Also need more info on porting. The 9"SRHH 44mag has had Mag-na-port porting done to it at their factory. Apparently it was pretty expensive, and ordered by a person with expereince with 44Mag revolvers, so there has to be a reason for it. Pros/Cons? Or should I just stay away from it? If stay away, why? I could get both a 9"SRHH ported and a 7.5" ported SBHH Bisley (both 44Mag)for $1000. But price does NOT trump what would be better in the field, as I intend to hunt with these, and could just buy a new SRHH 44Mag for $800, or the 454 for $550, SBHH for $500used,etc.

 

[CraigC]

...what is the effect of the "lower pressure"
that some have referred to.

The old ".45 outperforms the .44Mag at less pressure" sounds great in an article and is often regurgitated by those who do not fully understand but in the real world, it means nothing.

The .454, with full loads, will add to your range but it won't kill any deader, nor will it make up for sloppy shooting. To put things in perspective, my main load for the .44Mag is a 240gr cast SWC over 10.0gr Unique for 1100-1200fps from sixguns and 1450fps from rifles. This load will kill anything I will ever encounter in the hills of TN and most of what wanders the North American continent deader than fried chicken and do so without beating me up. You just don't need all that velocity, even in the .44Mag, to be effective.

Big bore sixguns are loud enough but I would really hate to touch off a heavy load from a ported sixgun without hearing protection, as happens often while hunting. It's just unnecessary, a solution looking for a problem.