Suprise from Kel-Tec

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unkjeb

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Just got a response from Kel-Tec concerning the RMR 30 they announced in 2010 was gonna be made, this is the mate for the PMR 30 .22Mag pistol and was gonna be the same cal and use the mags for the pistol. A lot of folks were eager to get one of 'em...well The email I got today stated the RMR is gonna be put on the back burner till they catch up on back orders....
People waited a year or more to get the PMR 30... Not unusual for Kel-Tec to announce something and then when the product gets available the dealers jack it up another $100 or more. They have not put this info on their website I notice.

Semper Fi ! devildog
 
Honestly, Kel-Tec has become somewhat of a joke to me.

With exception of a few bread-and butter mass-produced designs like the PF9, their whole business model seems to be based on announcing and marketing unique firearm configurations, not fully developing them, and dumping them in an undercooked form on the market in limited numbers with much fanfare and hype, and then moving onto the next overhyped product.

I guess that marketing approach works for them, though. What do I know?
 
Kel Tec is not a very big entity, as such they can only sell what they build and demand has continually out paced their ability to produce. I think they have been reluctant to expand their production operations to keep up. Keeps them from getting over extended financially. That may be good for them, no so for customers
 
Honestly, I think their lack of production is a strategy for them. With the amount of negative reviews and experiences people have with a lot of Kel-Tec products I think they keep the production low on purpose. A lot of their stuff has a mystique about it because you can't find them. If they actually kept up with demand everyone would realize that most of their stuff is an unfinished substandard product which uses customers as beta testers.
 
Yes, I am really torn regarding buying anything from Kel Tec. For more than a year I have been considering buying one of their RFB's. I really like bull pup designs, I'm left handed and like the ambi design, and a 308 semi is just interesting.
But I have no respect or faith in their company. They invent and market products that they cannot or will not build, they prematurely ship products that are not fully developed, and they seem to have little manufacturing skills and product planning abilities. I don't believe it's to create mystique, it's just ineptitude.
Quite a quandary.
B
 
It's actually innovation and smart business. They produce a small number of firearms and keep inventory low to non-existent. Anyone who has ever owned a business knows that limited inventory is a great thing so long as customers keep coming back for more.
KT is a small operation in Cocoa FL maybe a mile off of I-95 and 30 minutes or so from Orlando. I don't know anything about their financial situation but they seem to be one of the most innovative companies out there right now. They aren't kicking out endless 1911 clones but are truly coming up with cool looking weapons on a regular basis. I guess they don't want to, or are unable to, invest a lot of money to increase production. That upsets people when they can't find the product, myself included, but you don't go into many LGS and see a bunch of their firearms sitting there with a "clearance" tag on them.
 
I like my Sub2k but I'm hearing a lot of folks who are not big on Kel-Tec products and generally, where there's smoke, there's a fire.

No one can run a successful business making boomerang products; eventually they will spend so much time fixing the returns they will run out of time to make new ones.

I sure hope they get their act together, we sure don't need fewer manufacturers in the US.
 
Vaporware....

Of course Duke Nukem Forever came out after 15 years of development.....and it sucked
 
I think their cheap and generally reliable little pistols are enough to keep them out of the red while they play around with their more interesting designs.
 
It's actually innovation and smart business

I have heard this so many times, but can't ever figure it out. How is it smart business to make "x" amount of a product when the market demand is "xxxxxx"?

If you're in business to only make a little money, then I guess it is "smart business"......

And these aren't Ed Browns we're talking about, and Kel-Tec doesn't get the % above retail that these LGS are getting for KSGs and RFBs, etc..
 
Doesn't KT do a bunch of side-machining for other customers? I thought the guns were only a portion of their business dealings. Perhaps someone (*cough* Uncle Sugar *cough*) is willing to pay more for their services than we and are diverting machine resources? ;)

TCB
 
Kel Tec is not a very big entity, as such they can only sell what they build and demand has continually out paced their ability to produce.

Kel-Tec is a lot larger than you think. In 2010 (last date I found in a quick internet search), they produced more pistols than Colt, Kimber, Kahr, or FN.
 
How is it smart business to make "x" amount of a product when the market demand is "xxxxxx"?

Why do you assume that it is bad business to sell every single unit you produce?

KT has let the public see prototypes early. In the information age (blogs, forums like this, etc) those prototypes get a LOT of press among enthusiasts. Some of those prototypes look really cool, but may end up being less cost-effective to sell than established products.

Imagine you're selling every unit you can produce of "widget X", and have a new design for a really cool "widget Y" in the R&D shop. "Widget Y" is put together by hand over in R&D, "Widget X" is running through an accelerated full-production process on three lines, with a 25% profit margin. (I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, they're WAG's)

R&D says that they're almost ready to get "Widget Y" into mass production, and "Y" would sell at a 15% profit margin at best.

If you had to re-tool one of your three "widget X" lines to make "widget Y", and it took 2 weeks to get the line back up to production, which might then need to be adjusted at some point ...
(as in the PMR30 needing a replacement barrel after a few months of production - which cuts down that profit margin)

... Would you re-tool a line to make "Y" instead of running all-out on "X"? Forum commentators might figure into marketing more at KT than other manufacturers, but not as much as sales numbers do.

They're making a known profit on every unit they can produce, with some small percentage coming back for repair in the warranty department. Remember that KT sells to the distributors, and the distributors happily buy everything KT can produce at the rate KT sets.

Also remember that:
- satisfied customers tend to not be vocal, while an annoyed customer will make an effort to complain publicly
- the vast majority of KT sales are to budget-minded consumers that use the gun as a utility tool, not a showpiece
- many other customers are hobbyists and fans, and will often buy a "new product" just to have it
- another buyer group consists of tinkerers, for example the type that buys a sub2K just to add on $200 of parts to it


===

If anything is being done wrong, it is letting the public see those prototypes early, and/or not providing a disclaimer on production projections.

===

And I really want an RMR30, too. I want an RFB in 7.62x39 or 5.56nato as well - taking some standard mag. I want a .22lr conversion for my P32.
If KelTec (and Twisted Industries) is ever going to do those things, they will first fit it around the existing production of their selling products, not by reducing production numbers on those products that sell already.
Perhaps the entire planet will reach saturation with P3at and PF9 pistols. I suspect that once everyone has bought a subcompact and pocket sized gun from KT, they might have to reduce production on those. Given that Ruger hasn't reached saturation with the 10/22, and Marlin/Remlin hasn't reached saturation with the Model 60/795/70 yet ...
... ... it might take a while.
 
Kel-Tec is a lot larger than you think. In 2010 (last date I found in a quick internet search), they produced more pistols than Colt, Kimber, Kahr, or FN.
More than FN? That's astonishing. So much so as to be unbelievable.

And regarding it being a well run business? Very few individuals truly choose to keep their company small. Enzo did it so that he could focus on racing, S. Jobs did it for a while because he could oversee everything (but it grew out of hand after the ipod hit the market). Not many other companies stay small despite their opportunity to be bigger and more profitable.

Nope, these guys are creative designers who don't know how to execute, and choose not to hire people who do.

B
 
as such they can only sell what they build and demand has continually out paced their ability to produce.

My experience suggests their ability to repair what they've sold is likely an equal limitation!

I've felt more like an alpha tester than customer with my P3AT and RFB. But in fairness their support has been very good.

Kel-Tec is a lot larger than you think. In 2010 (last date I found in a quick internet search), they produced more pistols than Colt, Kimber, Kahr, or FN.
But these were mostly P32, P3AT, P11, & PF9 at a time there only real competition was Kahr at 2X the price. I'll give them credit for creating the mass market sub-compact pistol and being so successful they forced Kahr to launch a "value priced" line (CW & CM) to compete. Now just about everybody makes something to compete with the P3AT & PF9.
 
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I tend to disagree with a company using their customers as Beta testers and as such stay away from Keltek.
 
But these were mostly P32, P3AT, P11, & PF9 at a time there only real competition was Kahr at 2X the price.

Which reinforces my initial point that Kel-Tec's marketing strategy seems to be based on selling a few uninteresting bread-and-butter models while creating a lot of hype with a number of unusual and undercooked (but still desirable to many people) models that they never get to market in large numbers.

Now to mention it, that sounds like the same strategy a lot of automakers use! ;)
 
All I will say that in owning 4 keltecs I cant wait to buy a 5th.

I carry one everyday.

I would trust my life to my sub 2000 without hesitation(dont have to). I cast/reload 9mm and have had 5,000 rounds or more through that gun with NOT ONE SINGLE FTF.

Some of the early pistols left something to be desired but could be ironed out to work 100%. For a $400 pistol this would be unacceptable but for under 200 in a desirable carry weight and size people will come running.

My guns personally didn't need anything to run well.

They are one of the few companies out there creating unique designs that love them or hate them are being copied by other big name makers(Ruger).
 
I guess Ruger thought enough of them to shamelessly copy their 3AT pistol, and clone it into the LCP. I've wondered whether they're just getting away with it, or if they're paying K-T a licensing fee?

I had second thoughts about buying from a small and relatively unknown, to me, company when I bought my Sub2K. As it turned out, it's become one of my favorite guns, and I've had excellent service from it.

There is mention of buyers being the quality control, unfortunately this seems to be the case with almost all gun manufacturers. I've never read so much about guns being sent back. I guess this is fault of the internet. For sure, rarely did you ever hear of a writer for a magazine, especially one that took in advertizing revenue from a company, complain about their products.
 
the RMR is gonna be put on the back burner till they catch up on back orders....
Semper Fi ! devildog

Which means you are never gonna see it as they can't keep up with the demand for ANY of their products, and have not been able to for many years.
 
I can actually name you a dozen companies I have dealt with personally that have adopted a similar philosophy. They turn down new business or walk away from existing business because they don't want to take on the additional expense of adding employees and/or equipment to expand their production.

One small company flew to a corporate meeting, gave their sales pitch and came home feeling great about the presentation. The retailer offered them the business at the sales price with the condition that they supply 100% of the locations and the company declined all of it. Didn't want to tie up their operating money for such a large account and sacrifice their current customers. I try to never assume that I know why companies make certain decisions even if I don't agree with them.
 
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