Swiss vs. EU Gun Control

[sauer]

If you have monitoring system, that should do the job. Apart from high capacity mags for ARs or AKs not that much will change. The problem is that Vicky Ford who is rapporteur for the amendment of the directive is Welsh and after brexit her mandate is not as strong as before. We have enough anti-gun MPs to deteriorate the final draft.

 

[old lady new shooter]

The official motto of EU is "United in diversity". People change, countries change, language is almost like a living thing - changes every day... To make out a hypothetical assumption (cultural and linguistic unification) and then argue with it... I don't know, does not seem logical to me.
USA started as a bunch of colonies founded by people of different cultures, traditions and language. Some of you think that USA was made for a week, tops. But in reality that was a long and often painful process.

P.S. USA does not have an official language, EU has 24 official languages, Switzerland has 4, Republic of South Africa has 22... So what was your point again, about French speaking German or something?

In Switzerland they have 4 official languages because those 4 languages have always been spoken there. But the Swiss I've met all additionally speak a minimum of one of the other languages, plus English. It's a special case anyway, somewhat of an island of at least semi-sanity.

 

[Mizar]

In Switzerland they have 4 official languages because those 4 languages have always been spoken there. But the Swiss I've met all additionally speak a minimum of one of the other languages, plus English.

It's getting REALLY out of topic, but I'm bored so here it goes: "always" is a very strong word describing just a couple of centuries.
I speak two additional languages (English and Russian) and I'm definitely not Swiss - where does this put me in the scheme of things?
I will pass the commentary about sanity simply because calling names and generalization of groups of people, or whole countries (or continents) is just, politely put, immature.
English is the new lingua franca - before it was Latin, then Greek and now it's English. A very good part of the educated people in Europe speak English already - again, I fail to see your point.

To get back on the topic - the restrictions imposed may seem like nothing to most EU citizens, but we must never forget that such restrictions are made gradually, one drop at a time - like the frog in the boiling water anecdote. There is no rush, just look at the anti-smoking laws for instance - slowly, but firmly they restricted smoking more and more. You may say "To hell those nasty smokers!", but I will say "To hell those nasty gun-nuts..."

 

[Snejdarek]

In Switzerland they have 4 official languages because those 4 languages have always been spoken there. But the Swiss I've met all additionally speak a minimum of one of the other languages, plus English. It's a special case anyway, somewhat of an island of at least semi-sanity.

Speaking at least one foreign language plus English is somewhat standard in most of the EU for contemporary generation (apart from Englishmen and to some extent French).

 

[old lady new shooter]

When I lived in Germany (way before there was an EU) kids on the academic track had to learn English and either Latin or Greek; kids on the vocational track had to learn English. There was no requirement for an additional modern language. If such a requirement has now been implemented, good for them.

 

[JSH1]

While I do think, tight cooperation in many topics is essential for Europe, the "United States of Europe" is a fantasy that will never come true. Not necessarily for the cultural differences, but mainly for economic reasons. There is a difference of about 1.000% on average income between the richest and the poorest EU-country, there are gigantic differences in cost-of-living etc. etc. These issues will not be overcome in a few generations.

We have large differences in income and cost of living in the USA as well. The poorest State in the USA is Mississippi with an income per person of $21,000. The richest State is Connecticut with an income per person of $39,000. As to cost of living: I recently moved from Birmingham, Alabama to Portland, Oregon. My 1800 square foot house in Birmingham (freshly renovated) sold for $150,000. My 1000 square foot house in Portland (in need of renovation) cost $260,000. (Both are actually located in lower cost suburbs of those major cities)

There are also huge differences in culture and what people expect government to do for them.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

We have large differences in income and cost of living in the USA as well. The poorest State in the USA is Mississippi with an income per person of $21,000. The richest State is Connecticut with an income per person of $39,000. As to cost of living: I recently moved from Birmingham, Alabama to Portland, Oregon. My 1800 square foot house in Birmingham (freshly renovated) sold for $150,000. My 1000 square foot house in Portland (in need of renovation) cost $260,000. (Both are actually located in lower cost suburbs of those major cities)

There are also huge differences in culture and what people expect government to do for them.

Of course there are differences in the US also - even in my own small country (8.000.000 inhabitants), there are comparable differences within the states. But watch the scale-difference: you mention factor 2 for the US, for the EU it is factor 10!
For the price of a standard apartement for 2 persons in Luxemburg (only the apartement, nothing else!), you could lead a luxury life with a family of four in Poland (including house, cars, food, vacation etc.) . These gaps are not managable within a single country in my opinion

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There are also huge differences in culture and what people expect government to do for them.

And if more people expected less, and got up and did for themselves, there would be more resources for those who REALLY need help.

 

[Snejdarek]

But watch the scale-difference: you mention factor 2 for the US, for the EU it is factor 10!

For anyone interested, here's monthly average wage in Europe (as the pound falls take about -25% from the UK's number in the picture and subtract one percent each day from this post )



This shows what the money buys not only by countries, but also by regions:



More important for intra-EU immigration than the map above, in my opinion, is this statistic:



And last but not least, GDP:

 

[Odd Job]

Well, the muppets in the glorious EU strike again!

Following two trilogue meetings, the co-legislators were still unable to agree on the revision of the Firearms Directive. These negotiations must be unblocked to take military grade assault weapons off the streets including those converted to semi-automatic use. The Commission’s position is clear that semi-automatic assault weapons derived from the “AK 47 Kalashnikov family” and the “AR 15 family” should be banned for civilian use given that they were designed for military use. Magazine sizes for short and long firearms should be limited to 10 rounds and should be subject to authorization and stringent checks and any derogation should be strictly limited and tightly controlled. EU citizens expect swift progress in this area to ensure their protection, so we must reach agreement before the end of 2016 on this key piece of legislation

https://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/EU/XXV/EU/12/28/EU_122858/imfname_10671764.pdf

See page 3 of the document...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And they will find, as we found after 10 years of the "Assault Weapons Ban," that this will have zero effect on violence. None at all.

 

[Mizar]

And they will find, as we found after 10 years of the "Assault Weapons Ban," that this will have zero effect on violence. None at all.

Oh, those bureaucrats know that for sure. They just don't care - it's just another step to total ban of guns in EU. And that is really what they are after...

 

[old lady new shooter]

"Snejdarek"--a THR member-- is a Czech citizen.

He is very fluent and effective in explaining not only issues in his country, but some disagreements between the Czech govt. and the aloof bureaucrats in Brussels.

Yes, and not long ago he posted that if push comes to shove the Czech president will just declare all gun owners members of the state militia.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Speaking at least one foreign language plus English is somewhat standard in most of the EU for contemporary generation (apart from Englishmen and to some extent French).

Except for Muslims who don't even want to learn the language of the country they immigrate to, let alone its customs, mores and way of life.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

Except for Muslims who don't even want to learn the language of the country they immigrate to, let alone its customs, mores and way of life.

Don't you think, that is a bit of a generalization? Every child who went to school in any EU-country will have learn the language of that country (you can not visit schools who teach exclusively in a foreign language) and has to take courses in at least one foreign language (some countries have exceptions to this, but its not the rule). While it is true, that there is a problem with some people who never went to school here because they migrated as adults, in general the contemporary generation will be able to use the language of the country they live in.

 

[Kaeto]

Don't you think, that is a bit of a generalization? Every child who went to school in any EU-country will have learn the language of that country (you can not visit schools who teach exclusively in a foreign language) and has to take courses in at least one foreign language (some countries have exceptions to this, but its not the rule). While it is true, that there is a problem with some people who never went to school here because they migrated as adults, in general the contemporary generation will be able to use the language of the country they live in.

Depends on the sect of the Muslim. Some sects don't believe in having any more education than it takes to read the Quran. To them any more education than that is evil.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Depends on the sect of the Muslim. Some sects don't believe in having any more education than it takes to read the Quran. To them any more education than that is evil.

I've heard some groups don't even learn to read, they memorize the Quran and that's the sum total of their "education".

 

[old lady new shooter]

Don't you think, that is a bit of a generalization? Every child who went to school in any EU-country will have learn the language of that country (you can not visit schools who teach exclusively in a foreign language) and has to take courses in at least one foreign language (some countries have exceptions to this, but its not the rule). While it is true, that there is a problem with some people who never went to school here because they migrated as adults, in general the contemporary generation will be able to use the language of the country they live in.

Meanwhile the entire population growth of Austria is now due to immigration. I was surprised to read that, given that it used to be a Catholic country.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

See, the problem is: there are muslims, who do and belive these things, you are absolutely correct. Gaucho Gringo however did NOT mention these stupid people, but made a general statement about all muslims not learning languages and adapting to our culture - and that could not be further from the truth. Most of the mentioned groups do not live in EU, so how can they stand for the muslim population of the EU? You would be surprised, how little of a role religion plays in daily life here. I went to kindergarden with muslims, I went to school with muslims, I work with muslims - 95% of them you could not distinguish from an Austrian when talking on the phone, and not a single one of them believes, the Quran is all the education they need.

What does immigration have to do with being a catholic country? 80% of our immigrants are from the EU (mostly germans, but also a lot from eastern europe) and from ex-yugoslavia (mostly serbia) and are Christians as well. Austrias population growth is also not solely due to immigration - without immigration, there would be minimal, but measurable more people. You are correct however, that most of the growth is based on immigration - but not in connection with muslims. Even with the extraordinary high amount of muslims due to the refugee crysis, they made up about 40% of all immigrants last year. In "normal" years the number is much much lower.

To sum it up as we are getting widely off topic here: I do not say, there are no problems with radical islam in europe, obviously there is and it may be growing in the future. However what I can not stand is extreme generalization and wrong information about all people of a group. Especially with us as gun owners, who know first hand what wrong accusations and generalizations are, who constantly have to fight missinformed people about a certain topic, and who hate to be seen in a bad way as a whole group based on the actions of some members of that group should refrain from acting in such a way!

 

[Snejdarek]

o sum it up as we are getting widely off topic her

I don't agree with that statement. It is clear that the greatest push behind the EU gun ban is from national politicians who just realized that their country's muslim populations could get legal firearms as easy/difficult as any other citizen.

They know that they can't win the debate on banning firearms nationally so they are using EU in order to avoid that debate.

To avoid debate about the fact that none of the B7 guns that are to be banned have ever been used in a terror attack in EU.

To avoid debate about there being one particular group of citizens whom they don't want to be armed.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't agree with that statement. It is clear that the greatest push behind the EU gun ban is from national politicians who just realized that their country's muslim populations could get legal firearms as easy/difficult as any other citizen.

They know that they can't win the debate on banning firearms nationally so they are using EU in order to avoid that debate.

To avoid debate about the fact that none of the B7 guns that are to be banned have ever been used in a terror attack in EU.

To avoid debate about there being one particular group of citizens whom they don't want to be armed.

Well, far be it from me to claim that government makes sense, but that definitely doesn't make sense. It would be like banning guns during the French and Indian War to keep the French and Indians from getting them.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

I don't agree with that statement. It is clear that the greatest push behind the EU gun ban is from national politicians who just realized that their country's muslim populations could get legal firearms as easy/difficult as any other citizen.

They know that they can't win the debate on banning firearms nationally so they are using EU in order to avoid that debate.

To avoid debate about the fact that none of the B7 guns that are to be banned have ever been used in a terror attack in EU.

To avoid debate about there being one particular group of citizens whom they don't want to be armed.

There is absolutely no base for that assumption. Politicians might seem ignorant at times, but they are not THAT stupid. They know as well as we do, that legal B7 firearms are extremely unlikely to be used in any islamic terror attack in the EU in the future. Politicians know about the arsenals of illegal weapons passing through Rotterdam, they know how easy it is to get a gun on the black market. Remember the mass shooting in Munich this year? An 18 year old schoolboy with no ties to any criminal networks was able to buy a Glock and hundreds of rounds repeatedly, with no problems whatsoever. The dealer he bought the gun from also had B7 firearms for sale. Terrorists additionally do have networks, and they certainly will not go through the licensing process already put in place by the last firearm directive if they can buy guns easily on the black market.

Yes, politicians are using the EU and terror attacks as an excuse (but not solely - british politicians fore example are pushing hard for the ban, as they already outlawed these types of guns and don't need any excuse), but there is absolutely no evidence or clue, that this is due to concerns about the general muslim population. They simply cite terror attacks as the reason, because in the aftermath of such an event the public is much more likely to agree with that "reason".

 

[old lady new shooter]

What does immigration have to do with being a catholic country?

Once upon a time Catholics followed their church's teachings on birth control. Check some statistics on average family size in the 50's.

 

[old lady new shooter]

To avoid debate about there being one particular group of citizens whom they don't want to be armed.

Very similar to Bloomberg being caught saying young black males need to be disarmed, meanwhile he spends millions trying to disarm the entire American populace.

 

[RoscoeBryant]

Once upon a time Catholics followed their church's teachings on birth control. Check some statistics on average family size in the 50's.

Different family sizes had little to do with the church's teachings and much more with economic needs. Look at family sizes and modes of living in the 18th century, and you will find a lot more differences, simply because of the multi-generation-living in the same home, high infant death rates and the fact that children were the "retirement plan" of that age. With changes in lifestyles, industrialisation, growth of cities, decline of the primary sector etc., the need for having a lot of children decreased. Today we have a similar situation as most industrialized countries have: less than 2 births per woman and therefore a decrease in population without immigration. This development is similar throughout central europe (and most of the 1st world) - in the 60s and 70s a heavy decrease in fertility rate took place, regardless of the countrys primary religion.