Tactically, is the duty sized DA revolver a dinosaur?

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Boats

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Assume for the moment that a 4" .357 Magnum is concealable. I say this because for many people it is concealable.

The notion that the "full sized" DA wheelgun has no place in a serious SD/CCW arsenal is one that appears on THR from time to time and frankly baffles me. In about three weeks I am picking up a NIB Ruger GP-100. I have fired revolvers before and assuming the timing and accuracy of the new wheelie are satisfactory, I would have no hesitation staking my life to its performance.

Am I suffering a failure of imagination when I think a revolver is perfectly up to the task of home defense and CC if so desired?

Most people who denigrate the revolver do so primarily on three fronts. Slow reloads, "heavy" DA triggers, and capacity. For CCW carry I view the first as next to irrelevant, the second criticism to perhaps be a bonus as long as the trigger is sweet otherwise, and the third to be next to irrelevant as I already rely on eight or nine initial shots, so six is not horribe to contemplate. In a HD role, I view a slower reload and limited capacity as possible concerns, but a handgun is a back-up to a shotgun in my home. Again the trigger bothers me not, and if it does, a hammer cocking is but a split second away.

I will probably continue on as I have usng the 1911. However, what is it specifically that makes the pistol automatically a better choice tactically, in non-military or police settings, than a revolver in some people's minds? I am just not seeing it.

[Mods: Please do not move this to the revolver or general handgun forums as I am more interested in opinions on the theoretical advantages/disadvantages of the platforms in combat situations, than I am in going on about specific brands of revolver or auto. Thanks!]
 
What? The other flame wars on this subject in other forums not enough for you? :D :D :D

I've engaged just about every similar topic on this (and other) boards as it's come up, and I'm getting a little worn out. I'm sure others will chime in momentarily, but I'd like to just add one (somewhat) overlooked aspect of using a revolver (or really anything else) as a primary handgun: platform.

The simple truth of the matter is that most autos can be lumped into one of three categories. SA autos (1911, P-35, etc), DA/SA (Beretta, Sig, etc) and DAO (or "DAO" as is needed, with Glock, DAK Sigs, LEM HKs, etc.). There are dozens and dozens of various quality pistols that fall into these categories. I can't imagine getting to wrapped around the axle if I had to defend myself with an HK USP-C 9mm instead of a Beretta 8000. While we may have strong preferences (bordering on fanaticism) with regard to individual pieces within a category, we can (more or less) move about inside our chosen categories with (more or less) impunity. While there are most certainly salient differences between specific guns inside a category, there are sufficient similarities to allow us to "make do" easily enough (e.g., frame mounted safites *usually* move down for fire, slide mounted safties *usually* move up, etc.).

While there are those of us that never met a gun we didn't like, just about everyone (more or less) settles down into one of the above-mentioned categories for "serious business." This is may be because they have a strongly-held philosophical belief about some aspect of their category (e.g., manual safety) or because one of the many models in a given category has a more desirable set of characteristics (e.g., ergonomics, trigger reach, etc) than the others. Very few people will taken offense to someone making a decision based on these criteria.

The typical DA revolver simply adds a fourth category. People deride revolvers because they are the most different from the other categories. They have the least amount of "carry over" when moving between categories. Speedloading a revolver, for example, seems an arcane skill that one would have to develop as compared to operating a magazine release. However, this appearance is usually based on the person in question simply having much more experience with an auto. Note the difference betwen operating an American magazine release and a European (heel) magazine release. Given an equal level of familiarity, it seems to be just another difference-- much like a 6.6lb pull v/s a 5.5lb pull. Pick one and run with it. To a seasoned shooter familiar with both autos and revolvers, reloads are accomplished by either the latch, the American release or the European release. The movements needed to bring about the desired result (a reloaded pistol) are as deeply ingrained with one as with the other. It seems no more odd to reload a revolver than operating a European release over an American release.

Some features are better suited to some actions than others (e.g., you don't see any IPSC hosers using European mag releases). This is the source of the endless arguing. In order ot feel comfortable, some people need 18-20 rounds in an autopistol with an American release and a short, 3.5lb trigger pull. Others don't. The psychological arugments, the tacitcal arguments and the mechanical arguments are as endless and varied as those who participate in them.

Good luck with your flame war. ;) May it be as long and entertaining as the one we just had in Handguns: Revolvers.
 
I look at it this way: any firearm is a huge step up over no firearm. From there, you are basically arguing incrimental advantages that are, to varying degrees, theoretical.
 
...is the duty sized DA revolver a dinosaur?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is outdated and inadequate...until you successfully defend yourself with one, at which time the revolver will some how mysteriously be elevated in your estimation.
 
I don't think we'll have a flame war here. It doesn't matter what tool you use to defend yourself. Auto or revlover or muzzle loader....it doesn't matter. As long as you take the time to learn how to employ it.

The man wins the fight...most often the weapon he chooses is immaterial.

Jeff
 
Honestly, the thread in Handguns: Revolvers was a flame war. It was set up that way, and not by me. Here, I am hoping for a more dispassionate conversation, by people who actually care about "strategies and tactics," that gets to the roots of the mixed perceptions over DA wheelguns.

I do think that the transition from duty revolvers to high-capacity autos had more to do with the stampede mode humans are prone to getting into than any actual tactical shortcoming in .357 revolvers. Where and when during the 80s exactly were any cops generally "outgunned" on the streets other than in the Miami Shootout?
 
The only problems the DA revolver has for duty care is the speed of reloads and the fact that recoil is higher for equivalent power loads than for an autoloader. If you can handle both those issues, the rest is moot. For CC, it is a bit more problematic as the revolver is bulkier in some respects than an auto, but there again, it can be dealt with.

So, tactically, is it a dinosaur? Not hardly. Some tac teams around the world still have revolvers in their inventory for special occasions.
 
I've been mulling this over for some time. My current carry piece is a semi, but I prefer revolvers in most cases. For self defense the biggest problem with semis is also their greatest strength--capacity. Cops can certainly throw fifteen rounds at a suspect and get away with it. You and I, OTOH, may not be so lucky. If it's later determined that rounds 5-15 actually hit the suspect after he was incapacitated but not dead, a clever DA might be able to put you away for manslaughter or worse. You can't keep shooting after the person is no longer a threat, but where is the line?

My thinking is that big, powerful revolver makes that line a lot easier to draw. Or does it? Thoughts on this?
 
I'm with Sean and Dave. Kinda' like saying one camera is better than another. The one in your hands is better than the one you left at home... and the very best will not make a bad shot good.
 
The advantages are wonderful though: stone-axe reliability, excellent accuracy for the dollar, big power on tap when needed.

Plus you can tune the ammo power to your needs. From a 4" tube, any number of well-chosen, top-flight 38+P loads will be absolute pussycats and 95% as real-world effective as the 9mm and even 9mm+P. The wheelgun doesn't care what lower power level you run; try that in a slidegun, it'll work great for one shot :scrutiny:.

Yes, the 9s may have better paper ballistics but the 38 can run heavier bullets and don't need a projectile shape tuned to feed ramps. Case in point: the new 135grain 38+P from Speer. It's not an "adapted 9mm afterthought" projectile, it's purpose-built for 38+P and the shape would be way too funky for an auto. Betcha that thing real-world-performs as good as the 9/9+Ps.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SpeerTech38_135HP.pdf

http://le.atk.com/pdf/CCI-Speer2004NPS_v5.pdf

And if desired, you can go to real 357s and leave the 9s for dead. Hell, they'll leave a Black Bear dead with the right loads.
 
I'm a capacity freak. I carry a full size 9mm doublestack crammed to the gills with the best 9mm defense ammo I can find, and reloads. Anybody who comes after me or mine will have to walk through a lead hailstorm, and I like it that way... too many memories of being outnumbered and cornered.

That said, a .357mag is a serious round and a 7 or 8 shot revolver isn't all that much bigger than a 6-shooter. Then there's speed loaders. You can definately ruin a badguy's day with a revolver and it is a bit faster to just pull the trigger again than to clear a dud in an auto. I don't think I'll trade my CZ any time soon, but I respect a 7/8 shot .357mag. A modrn LeMatt with 9 .357mag chambers and a .410 shot shell would be awfully darn tactical, and Dixie-patriotic, if you ask me! hmm... if I ever get this machine shop finished I may just have to make a beast like that....
 
Tactically, is the duty sized DA revolver a dinosaur?

NO ... it's not ...

For those folks that agree, I don't need to explain my reasoning ... and for those that don't agree, no amount of explanation would probably suffice to change anyone's mind, or provide enlightenment ...
 
Capacity isn't the big issue with me. The big issue is that I can reload my 1911 Govt. with one hand while I cannot do this with my Smith 60.
 
Well, in my case, all the training I have recieved to date was with a 1911 series pistol, so that is what I will carry. Fight how you train, and all that.

That being said, my nightstand gun is a S&W 686+ (pre-agreement, of course :D )with Federal 125 grain HPs. Just the thing for the half awake state I am likely to be in should I have need of it. Just grab and squeeze.
 
Boats - re your question.

NJSP Trooper Phillip Lamonaco was shot dead during a gunfight on I-80 when he paused to duck behind his cruiser and reload his Ruger revolver. The BG ran around the car and shot the trooper in the side. Occured 12/21/81. NJSP went to the H&K P7M8 after that.

NYPD Officer Scott Gaddell met a similar fate on 6/28/96. Paused to reload his Smith & Wesson Model 10 and was shot dead.

That's 2 I can think of.
 
The only reason I switched to an auto for duty use was because of my love for the 1911. Ammo capacity in a stock 1911 isn't that much greater than in a six-shooter, but reloads are moderately faster.

Still, there's something about having that cowboy iron on your hip that is thoroughly pleasing. I've never had as fast a draw with the 1911 as I did with the sixgun.

Would I ever go back? In a heartbeat. The odds of getting into a shootout are slim to begin with, and if it did happen, I would try to make sure of bullet placement and not just spray wildly.
 
Can you hot what you're aiming at? If you can, use it.

I can't hit for crap with a revolver. Autos I'm better. *shrug* Use what works. Plenty of people won fights with revolvers before the auto came along.
 
I can't hit for crap with a revolver. Autos I'm better. *shrug* Use what works. Plenty of people won fights with revolvers before the auto came along.
Click to expand...

Amen. I can't hit anything with a DA trigger. It could be a DA auto or revolver. That means C&L autos for me.
 
Yeah WT, but how many officers with autos ALSO got killed because they shot 16+ rounds and STILL hit nothing? In the final analysis isn't it more an issue of training than equipment?
 
Seriously, for offence I would use a rifle. Or a shotgun.
Click to expand...

But THIS is a discussion of Handguns.......:banghead:

I would much rather have a nice lightweight select fire M-16 with a ACOG. or a Marine Magnum Shotty, but we are discussing handguns.

For me if I am carrying for self/home defence handgun I would rather have a revolver. Why cause mine is very reliable and I can hit out to 30+yds with the thing. Does that mean I do not have a 1911 around, no, it is right next to the 586 under my mattress when I go to bed.

Would I go into a tactical situation with a revolver, probably not I would rather have a nice basic 1911a1 to back up whatever long arm I am using.


I also have a Win 1300 and a Marlin 1894 in the closet 10 feet away.
 
If you can hit with a semi-auto and not with a revolver, you have not mastered the skill of trigger control. It is more important with a revolver due to the longer pull. Master it and you will shoot both better. The revolver has the advantage of much better reliability. They simply work more often. They rarely break. A good revolver will shoot more rounds without a failure than most any auto. Many revolvers have been used for a lifetime without any parts replaced. Use an auto for a lifetime, and it will need something replaced. There are very few scenarios that a revolver will not suffice. For a civilian, there are even less instances. Don't take this as auto bashing, as I like both. An auto is best when you know a fight is coming. For use when you are not expecting it, a revolver. Pound for pound you can carry more powerfull ammo than most autos. The bullets can be designed for optimum performance rather than feeding.
 
Several Texas Peace Officers whom I seriously respect still carry the wheelgun, mostly in .357, but I've seen a S&W .41 and a S&W .44 mag Mountain Gun riding about in holsters up in the Panhandle.

Rural officers tend to favour the large-bore wheelgun a bit more than their urban brethren, which is to be expected, considering some of the challenges that rural patrol work tends to uncover.

Only takes one 500-pound feral hog trying to get up under your hat with you to make those 17+1 rounds of 9X19 feel a wee bit...inadequate. :D

LawDog
 
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