Tactically, is the duty sized DA revolver a dinosaur?

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There are techniques for reloading a revolver one-handed. LE had to know how back in the old revolver days. Some LE textbooks have the technique in them if you look around. Or call the local junior college and ask the folks in the LE program if they have a book showing how.

If you carry a revolver, I would encourage you to practice this technique. Of course, like all of our tactical practice, I hope you never need it.
 
Practice and intimacy with your sidearm

is the most important factor.

If you know your {wheelgun/autoloader/english longbow/knotted rope/gnurled chunk of wood} like the back of your hand, if you can tell the difference between YOUR sidearm and another of the same make by touch, then it's not going to matter one whit.

Not one.

You'll be able to hit what you aim at, fully reload it in about 1.5 seconds, and get it in and out of concealment without looking, and without any OOPS :what:

After that, what else is there?
 
This is a nice, friendly discussion of the merits of the weapons listed ...

Cool ...

I took one of my .44's out of the safe to qualify with it the other day. I hadn't had any of my larger revolvers put on my approved off duty weapons qualification list for a while, so I figured it was time ...

I selected my 5 1/2" Redhawk, and used plain ol'e Winchester 240gr magnum JSP's (my previous "budget" buy training ammunition), and after those ran out, some "stoutly loaded" 300-something grain JHP's my brother had loaded for me a few years ago ...

It was interesting ... and somewhat satisfying ... to see just how easily I was still able to properly, quickly & accurately perform rapid close combat drills, and then some shooting-on-the-move scenarios against a timed course we use for our service pistol qualification. Even using the standard factory magnum loads, I was able to tightly group a 6-shot string in 5 seconds flat (6-second time limit), while moving approx 7 yards laterally in relation to a target positioned 5 yards distant from my line of movement. This was as fast as most of our folks could manage that short course using 9mm pistols and 147gr ammunition, and not only without any "misses", but with a fist-sized group. Talk about lucky ... ;)

NOW I remember why I used to enjoy carrying and shooting large caliber revolvers.:) And this particular revolver isn't even MagNaPorted like other .44's I've previously qualified with, and carried. It came with all the attendant muzzle rise and perceived recoil impulse the gun & ammunition manufacturers intended.:)

Another interesting thing was the comments from a couple of the other instructors. They both lamented that they hadn't practiced with their own .44 revolvers for far too long, and were talking about bringing theirs in to qualify with sometime soon ... ;)

Naturally, ammunition selection is an important concern with large caliber revolvers, especially in regard to potential over-penetration concerns.

I'd also like to offer a thought in regard to something someone else mentioned about the skills required to properly and accurately use a DA revolver, compared to a pistol ...

Since my agency transitioned from revolvers to pistols, and then started hiring folks who came into L/E work in recent times ... without having to learn to shoot revolvers ... I'd like to offer a personal opinion, based upon a lot of range observation ... that it's apparently a lot easier to take a revolver shooter and turn them into a pistol shooter, than vice-versa.

Folks that "grew up " in L/E work, and had to learn to shoot using DA revolvers, are generally often better trained in the essential basics ... and have a better foundation upon which to build enhanced skills and abilities. They also tend to figure they have only limited number of rounds available, as well, and often act accordingly ... instead of "spraying" rounds downrange. I get oh-so-annoyed whenever some young fellow tries to justify some rapid-fire shooting (that would generally do an AC-130 Spectre gunship proud) by asking me WHY he had all those rounds if he wasn't supposed to use them ... :uhoh: :scrutiny: Sorry, another subject ... anyhow ...

I still enjoy watching some grizzled veteran ... grumbling, squinting and shooting his "new fangled auto", (which he's grudgingly been carrying since 1990) ... and outshoot some young hotshot kid who's got all the toys, and has read ALL the magazine articles, books, and such ... but somehow never quite understood (or accepted) that deliberate application of proper grip, sight picture/alignment & trigger control skills ARE THE foundation of good marksmanship ... NOT the possession of high capacity magazines, "wonder ammunition", "leather-safe" holsters, a "seriously stern" visage and a highly polished badge.

I remember being in some admittedly hairy situations with some older veterans when I was a rookie ... guys that were armed with .44 magnum & .45 Colt wheeguns, and used belt loops and maybe a couple of speedloaders (although a couple guys never adopted anything beyond a simple dump pouch/belt loop combo) ... and somehow they never appeared to feel as though they were "under armed", nor did any of the dangerous folks that we arrested ever seem to consider the wheelguns "laughable" ...

Reminiscing aside ... proper training and practice is the key, no matter the weapon design & caliber employed ...

Well, also a good foundation of knowledge & skills. :)

The only thing I DON'T miss about the older wheeguns was the WEIGHT.:) If I was going to return to a uniformed assignment, particularly one that was in one of our more rural areas ... I'd seriously consider going from a pistol to a large caliber revolver ... if I thought I could get it approved.

I certainly don't expect wheelguns to return to the field of battle, but I also don't think they're THAT out of place when it comes to lawful personal defensive use ... in the right hands, anyway.
 
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If you know your {wheelgun/autoloader/english longbow/knotted rope/gnurled chunk of wood} like the back of your hand, if you can tell the difference between YOUR sidearm and another of the same make by touch, then it's not going to matter one whit.

Not one.

You'll be able to hit what you aim at, fully reload it in about 1.5 seconds, and get it in and out of concealment without looking, and without any OOPS :what:

After that, what else is there?
Click to expand...

You know, I really don't think there's a better way to say it. At all. My hat's off to you, sir. It would have taken me the better part of a four page thread to say the same thing.
 
All it takes is one hit at the right place to end a gunfight.
 
All it takes is one hit at the right place to end a gunfight.
Click to expand...

Theoretically. But if bullet and target don't perform exactly as predicted, that theory goes right out the window. If I have to use a firearm in self-defense, I'm already in the worst case scenario. I don't want to start playing the odds at that time.
 
Good point buzz_knot. There's no guarantees for one shot stops - especially with a handgun (and sometimes even with a hi-power rifle or shotgun). Unfortunately, we can't carry laws or RPG-7s around to dust off bad guys. I understand there's too much collateral damage including the possibility of bystanders being injured.
 
4v50 Gary said,

Unfortunately, we can't carry laws or RPG-7s around to dust off bad guys. I understand there's too much collateral damage including the possibility of bystanders being injured.
Click to expand...

Then there are the practical aspects. The need for a clear backblast area and overpressure concerns inside of buildings make these less then optimal defensive weapons :D . Perhaps a short barreld punt gun? :cool:

(Ok back to the serious discussion;) )

Jeff
 
I don't see a problem with using a revolver for H.D.(especially when backing up a shotgun) or for CCW. Rule #1 is always have a gun. I sometimes carry my S&W 649 .38spl snubbie off-duty.

I started my career in Law Enforcement(1989), as the revolver was being phased out of LE. I carried a M-10 for a few years. Then, we went to a SigP228DAO(now P220da/sa). The good revolver shots had better qualification with the autos. The poor revolver shooters stayed poor shooters(garbage in/garbage out:D ).

The modern Police auto is usually quite a bit lighter and over the course of a 25+ year career of sitting in a car, thats a good thing. To touch on WT's point, the trooper was ambushed on a traffic stop by two left-wing terrorists armed with hi-cap. 9mm autos(BHP's?). The officer was in a hail of fire and fired his 6 rounds, then tried to reload. As a Firearm trainer and PPCT instr, I can tell you that reloading a revolver under that kind of stress(high heartbeat=no fine motor skill) is very difficult(also found in Miami FBI shootout). Autos are easier to load under those kinds of situations. So, ease of reloading and number of rounds in the weapon are valid reasons for officers to use an auto loader. Not every Officer issued an auto is a poor shot or spray n pray type. For CCW, A person with more ammo in the gun is able to deal with more tangos. Not a bad thing-IMHO.
 
Fastbolt -

Excellent post. From 1970-1994 my father was a cop. When his agency switched from the S&W M65 to the S&W M4586 the old timers (like dad) continued to shoot those autos without any problems.

In the past few years (since becoming an LEO) I've learned alot about the basics and my shooting shows it. In the past year I've gotten into revolvers and I have also found that by learning how to use them effectively my ability with my Sigs has also improved.
 
YES, they are completely obsolete, and possibly even dangerous. I have a disposal program for all revolvers - just ship them postage due to me, and they will be safely disposed of.

I carried revolvers for the first 1/2 of my career, Semi-autos for the 2nd. I never felt undergunned. With the average shootout at less than 2 rounds, my old 2 1/2" M19 had enough ammo for 2+ ""average"" shootouts.

My IPSC club has a revolver shooter who consistantly beats all but a few of us. He does use 'moon' clips to reload, but that is a minor techological change. He came in 5th at the U.S. Nationals. I know, I know, IPSC is not the real world, but it does provide a comparative measure of what can be done with different handgun types.
 
No one has mentioned has fast and positive reloading a revolver with moonclips is. A good quality .45 acp revolver with full moon clips is very fast on the reload and there is NO chance of leaving a stray case in the revolver. Moonclips are a no brainer compared to a speedloader.

There is also an enherant ease of use factored into the revolver. If you don't practice all the time, and don't study your pistol (which I think is a mistake) the revolver is a grab and go weapon. The last thing you want to do is fart around with a safety or slide release at night in your house with no lights on.

That said - my favorite handgun to shoot is my Colt 1911.

Jeff
 
Full Moon clips were ... and still are ... a fast and fairly efficient way to reload a revolver which can utilize them ...

One of the senior guys I was thinking about in my previous post carried a long barreled 25-2, and he carried 4 full moon clips in his speedloader pouches, 2 of them stacked in each side. Not a bad way to carry double the capacity of spare ammunition for an old fashioned L/E duty rig ...
 
I've only seen the full moon clips in competition. I have never seen any police officer carrying full moon clips on his duty belt. Has anyone?
 
Besides my hunting revolver, Im an auto man myself. But Im sure there are plenty of dirt-balls who have been laid low with revolvers who would say the revolver is a great weapon for self-defense.(If they could)
 
There was a guy in my Gunsite 250 class using a 4" .45 ACP S&W wheelgun (625?). He got really good with his speedloaders during those 5 days, but he still couldn't reload quite as fast as the rest of us. However, he hit what he aimed at, which is what counts in the end. I'd take him as a "wingman" anytime.
 
This is a subject that has been of interest to me. For a while I carried a Para double stack .45, 10 rounds of .45acp usually with Aguila IQ's loaded. The only problem was the thing was uncomfortable as heck.
I suspect for most average guys capacity is not much of an issue. There just arent that many cases of one person standing off 6,7 or more BG's. The average personal protection situation is one on one or two on one with about 2 shots fired at a range of less than 15 feet. That being the case I would categorize gun features in the following order:
1) Reliability.
2) Bullet size/power
3) Comfort of carry
4) Capacity
5) Ease of reloading
6) Accuracy

Given in that order it is obvious that revolvers will be better than autos, especially since I personally would emphasize the first two factors over any of the others. The limited capacity of revolvers is actually a plus in some ways. With every bullet representing a potential lawsuit I think the "hail of lead" school is just blowing hard and asking for trouble.
FWIW, I am now carrying a Smith 329PD with "downloaded" .44mags.
 
The Rabbi ,

How do you like that new 329PD? I haven't had a chance to handle one, let alone shoot one, yet. Having shot some 125gr magnum JHP's through a friend's Sc/Ti J-frame, I'm a bit curious how the .44 model might feel using 180gr or 240gr JHP's ... :uhoh: :what:

Also, if you don't mind my asking, what kind of "downloaded" .44 ammunition are you carrying? (And I certainly won't be offended if you prefer not to discuss it on an open forum, either.)

I settled on using Winchester's 210gr magnum Silvertip for a long time, as it felt more like a slightly "reduced" load, but offered a nice balance of perceived recoil, controllability, accuracy and reduced muzzle flash ... compared to the 180gr JHP's.

I've been undecided about whether I want to add another .44 revolver to my battery before I retire ...

Okay, "undecided" is the wrong word. ;) OF COURSE I'd like to have another couple of .44 revolvers ... It's the make, model & size that is undecided.

A couple of the Performance Center revolvers have been attractive, as are more SA models, such as a Ruger Vaquero, or one of the Sheriff's Models ... but now the thought of a lightweight large caliber revolver is VERY attractive. I've owned & shot a fair number of .44 magnum revolvers over the years ... so it's not like I'd feel the "need" to do a lot of shooting with such a lightweight gun. I also have a few other .44's of various sizes to satisfy any need for "extended" practice sessions using magnum ammunition, as well.

I was just interested in your thoughts about this new model, since you own one ...
fb
 
The concept of something being a dinosaur means that it's so outdated as to be no longer reasonably functional or capable of doing a job.

Take, for example, the Japanese battleship Mikasa. State of the art when it fought at Tsushima in 1904. Today, in the age of missiles and over the horizon kills, it's truly a dinosaur. It could still launch 10" shells, but it's doubtful that it could get close enough to anything for those shells to hit. It's not fast enough to pursue anything, it has no capability for defending itself against hostile threats, etc.

The Mikasa truly is a dinosaur.

Can anyone really say that that concept applies to a modern hand-ejecting duty-sized revolver, though.

And, if we have to cosider the duty-sized revolver a dinosaur, how about full-sized semi-autos such as the 1911? There are duty-size revolvers that now match the 1911's ammunition capacity.
 
The Mikasa is the one reason why I want to visit Japan. I had a buddy who use to climb aborad that shrine and get drunk (along with an Aussie). Nimitz forbid the Air Corp from bombing her and after the war, dropped a load of cash for her preservation. If you see her, you'll find a memorial to Chester Nimitz closeby. Admiral Togo, who commanded the Japanese fleet at Tsushima, felt that the blood of Nelson flowed in his veins. Likewise, Nelson felt the blood or spirit of Togo flowed in his.
 
Fastbolt,

I love the gun, is the short of it. If you take it out, load it with factory mags and shoot it, you will trade the gun the next day. Recoil is just downright unpleasant. I modified mine. I put on Pachmayr Decellerators, did a trigger/action job, and load my own. I am using 240gr Hornady XTPs ahead of maybe 9 grains of Accurate #2 with Federal primers. I have not chronographed the loads and might consider adding a little more powder up to where it just gets uncomfortable. Carrying it is wonderful, no weight hardly at all. I am not sure yet about the sights.
 
I am the guy who called the revolver a dinosaur. I also stated I didn't have a place for the wheelgun in my self defense arsenal. I really don't have any idea why that should bother anyone. My preferences are personal and I am not pushing my ideals on anyone.

I called the revolver a dinosaur in light of the transition that the handgunning society (in general) has made to the semi-auto. I don't think anyone would argue that semi-autos have displaced the revolver. Is a wheelgun still a perfectly viable self defense weapon? Of course it is. I would not feel under gunned packing my old 2 1/2 inch model 19.

For those who weren't paying attention before, I am a revlover fanatic. Go look up my UPSPA number (TY43321) on the USPSA Website and you will see that I have literally "mastered" a revolver.

I said a revolver has no place in my self defense arsenal because I choose to carry a semi-auto. I pack a 1911 because I shoot them better, I prefer packing a flat pistol as opposed to the bulk of a cylinder, I can reload them faster, and I have 8+1 capacity. It's just a choice that I have made.

Good grief guys, a self defense handgun is a personal choice. If you like a wheelgun carry the thing. If you like to compete with a wheelgun, compete with it. The decision is yours, not mine.
 
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