Talk to me about Scout Rifles?

[itgoesboom]

As I have said before, I am currently choosing my next rifle.

One of the things that has come up in different places has been the scout rifle concept, but while I know a little about Col. Cooper and his concept, I don't really know the advantages/disadvantages.

So, how about it?

The good, the bad, the ugly?

I.G.B.

 

[BigG]

It depends. If you have a lot of shooting under your belt and can make most rifles perform to their potential you will likely appreciate the sophistication of a Steyr Scout rifle with the intermediate eye relief scope. Once you are able to shoulder a Steyr and have a picture of the target in front of your eyes like a shotgun you will be able to make quick hits unlike a gun you have to move your head around until you get a sight picture, then find the target, etc. I like mine but a lot of guys complain about the price. YMMV

 

[itgoesboom]

Big C,

Thanks for the reply.

Actually, I should have mentioned that I am really looking at getting a Savage Scout through their custom shop, since I can't afford a $2500 rifle.

So I am really more intrested in the concept of the 'scout rifle' rather than the specific models.

What are the advantages to the concept, and more importantly, what are the disadvantages?

I.G.B.

 

[Mulliga]

Advantages: Handy to carry and shoot, faster target acquisition than a traditional rifle (most of the time), better situational awareness (less "getting lost in the scope"), easy to load a Mauser-style action with stripper clips.

Disadvantages: Relatively few rifles are equipped for a forward-mount scope, so there's a danger of becoming to attached too your rifle; effects of parallax are increased unless you are careful; short barrel and short stock mean scout rifles are rarely as accurate as heavier bolt-actions like an FN SPR or an M24.

 

[Skofnung]

The biggest advantage is that it is fast to use under field conditions.

It's a jack of all trades kind of thing.

It is an attempt to answer the age old question of "If you could only have one rifle what would it be?"

Pros:

Light, fast, hard hitting, accurate out to as far as the naked eye can see, reliable

Cons:

Low powered scope (it does not help as much for longer shots, but it is great for 0-300 yards), shorter barrel (you lose a few FPS, if that matters to you)


I WILL have a Steyr Scout one of these days. So many toys, so little money...

 

[BigG]

Here is a thread that discusses the pros and cons of the Scout pretty thoroughly. I started out skeptical but once I tried one, I was sold on the utility. Happy reading!

Scout Rifle Thread

 

[ctdonath]

The core thing to remember its reason for being is general purpose. There are certainly others which may perform better in situation X, but the Scout design serves pretty much all purposes well enough, likely better than the user can perform. There's just not much it can't do well enough, and ask yourself if you're really going to try doing those things (and if so, why).

I have a Steyr Scout, and spent a week learning to use it under Cooper. It's ... handy. Light, reasonably compact, fast-mounting, hard-hitting, just nice to use - ideal for getting accurate first-round hits & stops on pretty much anything. A little training gets you sufficintly rapid-fire close range, to 600m with care. What more do you really need?

FWIW: I slapped a 10x scope on it with 20MOA rings and learned to hit targets accurately to >900m.

Only things it might not be good for is SWAT-type room clearing, or concealed carry.

 

[itgoesboom]

So, this really might be a good choice for someone who is looking for a new rifle, and can't decide between an AK clone or long range precision rifle? Kinda a half way point between the two I guess?

So for a general purpose rifle, something that might be used as a hunting rifle, a fun plinking rifle, and if it came down to it, a SHTF rifle, the Scout concept would be a good choice?

I.G.B.

 

[RonS]

Col. Cooper originally refered to the scout rifle as the general purpose rifle, the term scout came later. I believe that he once said that the scout rifle was intended to be the go to rifle, the rifle to pick up when you did not know what you would face. A long range precision rifle is too heavy to carry far, and almost impossible to snap shoot. Imagine if you suddenly had to turn 180 degrees and engage a changing bandersnatch at 10 feet with a Remington 700 PSP with the scope set to 24X. Or if you were in the field with an AK-47 clone and needed to make a heart shot at the trophy of a lifetime at 350 yards. (Or, if you are tacticaly inclined), were engaged at the same range by an opponent with a scoped rifle, and all you had was the same AK. The scout is light and handy but still very accurate and easy to shoot well.

Google "Scout Rifle" and "Fr. Frog" and read the info you find there, it is an excellent overview, and the author is not so down on the Savage as some gun snobs. I believe the Savage does have some minor issues with magazines, but they can be worked around by having the magazines fitted to the rifle at the factory when you order it. Or, you could have it built based on the Savage model 10 which is the same as the model 11 without the detachable magazine. The Savage Accu-trigger might be a good investment at the same time, or you will probably end up adding an aftermarket trigger to get the most from your rifle.

 

[sendec]

I have one of the production Savage Scouts and love it> It is a great all-round utility rifle, and intrinsically more accurate than I can shoot. I guess if I was being attacked by 3 grizzles at once it could be lacking, but that has'nt happened all week.

I am not certain that it is a good introductory rifle. It is light, so long range sessions can get tiresome, and the ghost ring sights are less precise than some. For learning riflecraft I would probably start with something a little more conventional. For mastering riflecraft, it's the ticket.

 

[MolonLabe416]

Here's a link to the best Scout site of which I am aware.

http://www.steyrscout.org/project.htm

 

[Drue]

This thread got me thinking about the “general purpose rifle†and comparing the scout rifle concept with what the older generation thought of as a “general purpose rifle,†a conventional sporter, say a .30-06 with a 3x9 power scope. What do people do with rifles? I can think of small game hunting, varmint hunting, deer hunting in various flavors, larger-than-deer hunting, fighting, target shooting (National Match Course aka conventional hi power), silhouette shooting and benchrest. In these endeavors how would a .308 scout rifle stack up against a conventional sporter?

Small Game Hunting

While this is best handled with a .22, either a .308 Scout or a conventional sporter in .30-06 could be pressed into service with plinker bullets or round buckshot balls. Assuming that the Scout is really and truly faster for a snap shot, I would say

Advantage: Scout Rifle



Varmint Hunting

Neither could come close to a .223 or a .22-250 or a .243 with a higher power scope but the 9X on the conventional sporter is way ahead of the 2.5X on the scout. Either caliber is way overkill.

Advantage: Conventional Sporter


Deer Hunting, Various Flavors

Stalking

Although the snap shot ability of the conventional sporter, with the scope set on 3X can be high, with practice, I’ll say that the scout would be better.

Advantage: Scout Rifle


Stand Hunting

Many jurisdictions and many clubs have rules about the number of antlers on deer that is shot. It is much easier to count horns with a magnification greater than 2.5X

Advantage: Conventional Sporter



Beanfield Hunting

Even the .30-06 is outclassed by a flat shooting magnum across a beanfield but the slight advantage of the 06 plus the higher scope magnification tips the scales in favor of the .30-09/3x9.

Advantage: Conventional Sporter



Larger-Than-Deer Hunting

The ability of the .30-06 to handle heavier bullets at useful velocities is a distinct advantage.

Advantage: Conventional Sporter



Fighting

I am sure that most of us would not choose a bolt action rifle for a fighter. The snap shot capability of the scout would be an advantage at close range however the magnification of the 3x9 would be an advantage for sniping. If I had to fight with a bolt rifle, I would prefer to shoot at longer range and then scoot.


Advantage: Conventional Sporter




Target Shooting

No general purpose rifle could be expected to be compete in a significant match and either the scout on the conventional sporter could have the scope removed and iron sights bolted on to try it out. The conventional sporter would need a block with a clip slot as well. The national match course requires 50 or 60 shots in one sitting. The very handiness that denotes a scout rifle works to it’s disadvantage as a target rifle. It is simply more comfortable to fire 50-60 rounds out of a 9lb sporter than a 6.6lb scout. Recoil is not much of an issue in a hunting rifle that is fired once or twice but in a target rifle it is a problem. The effects are cumulative. Why do you think Tubb uses a 6X?

Advantage: Conventional Sporter



Silhouette

One would probably want more scope power than 9X, however 9 is better than 2.5. The same problem with recoil for NMC shooting applies to silhouette.

Advantage: Conventional Sporter



Benchrest

Neither would be competitive.

Advantage: neither



Don’t get me wrong. I like the scout rifle concept. I like Col. Cooper and appreciate his service to our country and to the world of shooting. Like everyone else, I want a rack full of rifles. However, if I had to pick A “general purpose rifle†I would choose a conventional (M70) sporter in .30-06 with a good 3x9.


My $0.02

Drue

 

[CaesarI]

Someone remarked that the shorter barrel harms accuracy. This is not true.

A Scout Rifle is a lot more than just an intermediate eye relief scope mounted over the barrel, some people list advantages and disadvantages that address only this one feature.

Beware that you do not judge the "Scout Concept" by rifles that incorporate some features of the scout design and exclude others.

You should visit here for Cooper's own remarks on the rifle, before examining anything else.

That, or visit your local library and grab a copy of "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" which includes his entire essay on the subject of the general purpose rifle.

All this being said, the biggest complaints I've heard about the scout concept, (as verse the Steyr Scout) is that:
1. The rifle looks "weird" and/or "ugly" due to the stock configuration particularly on the Steyr (which is the only production Scout with the integral disappearing bipod), and
2. The forward mounted scope, which some people accuse of being not any faster than a traditional scope, as well as very poor for night shooting.

I consider complaint 1 to be holding form over function.
Complaint 2 is a bit harder, but I've found a solution in replacing the Leupold scope with an Aimpoint 2X scope, which doesn't have the parallax issues that a traditional scope mounted that far in front of the eye does.

Major advantages of the Scout Concept are outlined by Cooper rather nicely in the link given above.

Asking a Scout Rifle to compete against a dedicated bench-rest or varmint rifle, as about as silly as asking a varmint rifle to compete against a bench rest rifle.

-Morgan

 

[Mannlicher]

A lot of folks swear by the Scout rifle Concept, as embodied by Colonel Cooper. One would think that the good Colonel was the first to ever think of the idea of a short, effective rifle.

I have a couple of turn of the Century Mannlicher-Schoenauers that were the embodiment of the concept long before Steyer made them in plastic. As you may well know, there is a pretty strong relationship between Mannlicher and Steyer.

I have always been happy to do without the forward mounted scope, seeing no practical use for that feature.

 

[Mulliga]

Someone remarked that the shorter barrel harms accuracy. This is not true.

To achieve the Colonel's target weight (in .308 caliber), the scout rifle must have an ~18"-20" barrel. Standard "sniper" bolt actions (hell, even your average .308 deer gun) have 24"-26" barrels, and, all other things being equal, that amounts to a bullet that is around 100 fps faster. Faster bullets have flatter trajectories and longer useful ranges. Maybe it's not more "accurate," but it sure as heck has a longer range - and isn't that the reason people use bolt-action rifles in the first place?

It's not just the shortness of the barrel, it's the barrel's profile. Lighter barrels have less metal, and heat up faster. I can personally attest to this - my 700 Mountain groups fine with about 1 shot a minute, but step it up to three and five shots, and the groups open up quite a bit.

I'm not sure if I'm that qualified to talk about it, given that I don't have the money to buy either an FN SPR or a genuine Steyr Scout. I have read "The Art of the Rifle," and it explains a bit about the scout concept - I just don't think there is "one true sword" for anything, especially hunting/combat. I agree with it, for the most part, but I think good semiauto .308s for ranges of 200-400 yards are useful, too. ("The Art of the Rifle" even has a pic of a G3 with bipod ) And if you're being chased by a horde of angry terrorists with AKs - time to break out the mouse gun.

 

[M16]

Sometimes the scout rifle is best and sometimes conventional rifles are best. The solution for me was to buy two of them. One set up with a regular scope and one set up in the orginal scout form.

 

[45 ACP]

M16:

Finally, someone else that admits to shopping like I do....

 

[itgoesboom]

Ok, so I have an email in to Savage, and they are going to call me in the morning to discuss details and pricing.

So what is it I should look for? I am going to treat this as if this is my only rifle (although I also have an SKS).

Right now, I know I want a peap sight, a center point sling swivel for a ching sling, (I am going to be learning proper riflemanship) forward scout scope mount, synthetic stock.

Should I also have an extra swivel mounted on the forend for a bipod? I know the Col.'s design calls for a built in bipod, but that ain't happening, so should I get an external?

Should I get the removable magazine version or the non-removable?

What length barell? 16"? 18"?

.308 or .243?

Whatcha think?

I.G.B.

 

[Kestryll]

Drue,
most of the advantages you gave to the conventional sporter seem to be mostly due to the higher magnification scope.
Replay your contest but use the 2-7x EER scope on my converted Mosin M44, I think some of the 'events' might turn out differently.

Both platforms have their strengths and weakness', it's when you ignore the strengths and try to run roughshod over the weakness' that things fail.

Of course the optimum is to have at least one of each!

 

[CaesarI]

Cooper credits the Mannlicher-Schoenauer as being a progenitor of the concept in both "To Ride..." and "The Art of the Rifle" he has stated in his commentaries that a scope may not be required for the total concept, and recounts use of his own rifle without one.

My remarks on barrel length not affecting "accuracy" have nothing to do with trajectory. As far as the extra 100fps, and extra 100fps will likely not change one's trajectory to any significant degree, and besides which, at the ranges where this increased trajectory is significant the "morning glory" effect takes hold, making the extra velocity not terribly beneficial. Target rifles have heavy barrels to delay heating, as mentioned.

-Morgan

 

[BigG]

Drue, you made a lot of points in favor of a conventional sporter with a 3x9 power scope. One of the biggest advantages of the scout is it is handy. The gun balances in one hand and can be carried at the balance point unlike a scoped sporter. The rifle comes up to the shoulder like a shotgun and you are on target NOW. There is no sporter I've tried that fit me perfectly and allowed me to have a sight picture when it hit my shoulder. Just thought I'd mention it.

 

[hillbilly]

Do a search for posts by me, "hillbilly" and "scout."

I cobbled one together out of an Ishapore Enfield, synthetic stock, AO scope mount, and Leupold Scout Scope.

Thus far, it has proven very good at the following:

Rapid hits on targets at 100 yards....by "rapid" I mean snap shooting. Look downrange at the target with rifle at low ready. Swing rifle to shoulder, keep both eyes open, and fire when the crosshairs hit the target.

Hitting targets the size of a deer's vitals or torso rapidly out to 300.

I cannot say what it's like beyond 300, as I don't have access to a range longer than that close to my house.

Weaknesses, as I can see, are bolt action.....not as fast as a semi. And the long eye relief on the scope does allow the sun's glare to come over your shoulder and mess up the sight picture.

I tried about sunset the other night, just to see. And yes, at certain angles, the sun could come from behind you and mess up your sight picture.

It's also light, handy, and rugged.

hillbilly

 

[CaesarI]

IGB:
16" barrels are very handy, but lose quite a bit in velocity, 18" is as short as I'd go, and I prefer 20". .308 is more versatile a caliber than .243, so if you're treating it like you have one gun, then go with .308

Skip the bipod, most external ones are very heavy, and it throws off the balance of the rifle. One of the better features of a scout is that it is not heavy.

-Morgan

 

[RonS]

Please let us know the details when you get it all together, inquiring minds want to know.

If I were ordering a Savage scout, I would base it on the fixed magazine model for simplicity, reliability and durability. Who wants to have to buy magazines anyway when all you really need is a fixed magazine and a pocket for your ammo. Since you are going thru the custom shop, you can get it in stainless steel, and for a scout I would consider it. Either that or have it parkerized. You might consider having double front sling swivel points and a section of weaver scope rail for a leopard light under the forend. I would get the .308 with either an 18 or 19 inch barrel, add a genuine Ching Sling and either a Leupold or Burris scout scope, or maybe an Aimpoint as someone else suggested.

Have fun.

 

[itgoesboom]

Well, after a few emails back and forth, it looks like I won't be able to afford this project.

My projected budget is about $800, maybe $850 if I really pushed it.

The Savage Scout would cost about $750 before FFL fees and such. That's with an extra swivel, and the accu-trigger.

So I wouldn't have enough left over to purchase the Leupold scope.

I was expecting to cost a little more than their production rifles, but not double.

I guess I will have to figure something else out instead.

I.G.B.