Talking draft in light of Iraq occupation

Status
Not open for further replies.
Zell Miller: Draft May Be Necessary to Win War on Terror

The U.S. may need to reinstate a military draft in order to win the war on terrorism, retiring Sen. Zell Miller said on Monday.

"While I don't think we're close to that yet, that may be on down the line," the Georgia Democrat told nationally syndicated radio host Sean Hannity.

"We must stay the course," explained Miller. "We cannot cut and run because if we do not fight this war in Iraq we're going to have to fight in on the streets of America. And we cannot allow that to happen."

"Perhaps [a draft] may be something we have to consider on down the line," the former Marine added. "It will be tough. A lot of people will not like it. But it may very well be something that we have to look at very seriously."

The Georgia Democrat becomes the first high-profile supporter of the war to suggest that a draft may be necessary. Earlier this year, Iraq war critic Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., had raised the prospect of reinstating the draft, but most observers believed he did so in a bid to erode support for the war.

Miller angered his fellow Democrats last week when he endorsed President Bush for re-election and complained that Democrats' harsh attacks on the White House endangered the lives of troops serving in Iraq.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/11/3/164417.shtml

Oiling up the draft machine?
The Pentagon is quietly moving to fill draft board vacancies nationwide. While officials say there's no cause to worry, some experts aren't so sure.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Dave Lindorff

Nov. 3, 2003 |The community draft boards that became notorious for sending reluctant young men off to Vietnam have languished since the early 1970s, their membership ebbing and their purpose all but lost when the draft was ended. But a few weeks ago, on an obscure federal Web site devoted to the war on terrorism, the Bush administration quietly began a public campaign to bring the draft boards back to life.

"Serve Your Community and the Nation," the announcement urges. "If a military draft becomes necessary, approximately 2,000 Local and Appeal Boards throughout America would decide which young men ... receive deferments, postponements or exemptions from military service."

Local draft board volunteers, meanwhile, report that at training sessions last summer, they were unexpectedly asked to recommend people to fill some of the estimated 16 percent of board seats that are vacant nationwide.

Especially for those who were of age to fight in the Vietnam War, it is an ominous flashback of a message. Divisive military actions are ongoing in Iraq and Afghanistan. News accounts daily detail how the U.S. is stretched too thin there to be effective. And tensions are high with Syria and Iran and on the Korean Peninsula, with some in or close to the Bush White House suggesting that military action may someday be necessary in those spots, too.
…
The draft, ended by Congress in 1973 as the Indochina War was winding down, was long a target of antiwar activists, and remains highly controversial both in and out of the military. Most military officers understandably prefer an army of volunteers and career soldiers over an army of grudging conscripts; Rumsfeld, too, has long been a staunch advocate of an all-volunteer force.

According to some experts, basic math might compel the Pentagon to reconsider the draft: Of a total U.S. military force of 1.4 million people around the globe (many of them in non-combat support positions and in services like the Air Force and Navy), there are currently about 140,000 active-duty, reserve and National Guard soldiers currently deployed in Iraq -- and though Rumsfeld has been an advocate of a lean, nimble military apparatus, history suggests he needs more muscle.

The closest parallel to the Iraq situation is the British in Northern Ireland, where you also had some people supporting the occupying army and some opposing them, and where the opponents were willing to resort to terror tactics," says Charles Peña, director of defense studies at the libertarian Cato Institute. "There the British needed a ratio of 10 soldiers per 1,000 population to restore order, and at their height, it was 20 soldiers per 1,000 population. If you transfer that to Iraq, it would mean you'd need at least 240,000 troops and maybe as many as 480,000.

"The only reason you aren't hearing these kinds of numbers discussed by the White House and the Defense Department right now," Peña adds, "is that you couldn't come up with them without a return to the draft, and they don't want to talk about that."

The Pentagon has already had to double the deployment periods of some units, call up more reserves and extend tours of duty by a year -- all highly unpopular moves. Meanwhile, the recent spate of deadly bombings in Baghdad, Falluja and other cities, and increasing attacks on U.S. forces throughout Iraq have forced the U.S. to reconsider its plans to reduce troop deployments.

Those factors -- combined with the stress and grind of war itself -- clearly have diminished troop morale. And many in the National Guard and reserves never anticipated having to serve in an active war zone, far from their families and jobs, for six months or longer. Stars and Stripes, the Army's official paper, reports that a poll it conducted found that half the soldiers in Iraq say they are "not likely" or are "very unlikely" to reenlist -- a very high figure.

Consider that the total enlistment goal for active Army and Army reserves in the fiscal year ended Oct. 1 was 100,000. If half of the 140,000 troops currently in Iraq were to go home and stay, two-thirds of this year's recruits would be needed to replace them. And that does not take into consideration military needs at home and around the globe.

"My sense is that there is a lot of nervousness about the enlistment numbers as Iraq drags on," says Doug Bandow, another military manpower expert at Cato. "We're still early enough into it that the full impact on recruiting/retention hasn't been felt."
…
http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news1/salon1.html

Toronto Star: Will U.S. Bring back the Draft?
…
I don't think a presidential candidate would seriously propose a draft," said Charles Pena, a senior analyst with the Washington-based Cato Institute. "But an incumbent, safely in for a second term — that might be a different story.

"When you crunch the numbers, you understand why you hear talk about a draft. You only have to look at troop levels to realize we don't have the numbers to do the job in Iraq properly."
…
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...289288&call_pageid=968332188854-rumsfeld2.htm

ANNUAL PERFORMANCE REPORT

An annual report providing the results of the implementation of these performance measures will be submitted by March 31, 2005. This report will address attained versus planned levels of performance, explain unattained target levels, and identify where and how strategies, performance goals, and performance indicators should be changed to ensure that the SSS reaches its strategic and annual goals and objectives.
…
Strategic Objective 1.2: Ensure a mobilization infrastructure of 56 State Headquarters, 442 Area Offices and 1,980 Local Boards are operational within 75 days of an authorized return to conscription.
…
http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html
 
Congrats, w4rma

You found 1 person (and 1 Rangel, but he doesn't count) in a congress of 535 members who said that there MAY be a need for a draft.
"While I don't think we're close to that yet, that may be on down the line,"
However, if you read the entire story you can see that what Zell Miller is saying is that IF it is necessary to institute a draft in order to ensure success then so be it. This was much more a statement about his support for the president doing whatever is necessary to win the war on terror than it is regarding the draft.

Grasping at straws is a sure sign of desperation.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If, OTOH, the cause is just and true, there will be no shortage of volunteers willing to take up arms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rayra,

I think he addressed te current sit. as popularly perceived.
WvaBill, I read it that way as well. And chuckled, because the cause IS just and True, AND there is no shortage of volunteers. That the Trustifarians and LLL propagandists keep chanting 'No War for Oil' and trying to twist every piece of news from the Region into a Defeat is also endlessly entertaining, and a danger to us ALL.
 
Goon, "I am not a pacifist" - from one Vet (USMC) to another, you are a head-in-the-sand Isolationist, and that is one step less dangerous than 'Pacifist'. Fat lot of good ignoring rising Islamic Radicalism and Anti-American sentiment did BEFORE 9/11. Do you really think it would help AFTER?
 
The draft is slavery (just like taxes).

Even with a billion chinese on the march, it is still unjustified.

Plus, the military is incompetantly run (they *chose* .223!) and so I would never want to fight under such leadership.

In such a situation-- actually in any situation where defending the country is needed-- homeland defense groups would spring up, and I'd join one of them.

The draft is unnecessary, and ultimatel,y the military is as well. There's a reason the founding fathers did not want a standing army. But, that's getting off the topic of this thread.
 
I'm tired of this religious war.

Can we just let all the non-christians out of the military, and then send Bush, and all the crhsitians in this country who want to go fight Muslims off to the middle east and let them fight them?

And then those of us who support the constitution and thin the military should just be for defending the country can get back to economic growth and capitalism.

Let the christians socialists go fight the jihad they want with the muslims (And that hey allowed, or orchestrated 9/11 to justify--- hell, we all have seen the video of George W Bush sitting there talking to school children, and refusing to let NORAD stop the attacks.)

Just stop forcing the rest of us to pay for your stupid holy war. And stop insulting our intelligence by claiming its justified.

So far, there has been no progress on getting the people behind 9/11, and apparently no attempts. Rather than hunt Osama, bush would rather go to war with Iraq, and then, what, Syria? Iran? Which mulsim country that had nothing to do with 9/11 is he going to attack next?
 
Materdei-

I can see how you're confused. In this socialist society they don't tend to talk about america-- you know, the country this was before the civil war, back when the constitution mattered. They talk even less about the confederacy of states-- the real america, back when human rights were respected and socialism had not taken over.

But I'll give you a basic concept. Socialism is the idea that the state owns you. Capitalism is hte idea that you own yourself.

In socialism, the state controls your economic behaviour. In socialism the state drafts you when it wants an army.

In capitalism the state does not control economic behaviour, knowing that economics will regulate itself. In capitalism the state knows that people will defend themselves...and also that by not centrally planning the economy, the tools-- including weapons-- they have to defend themselves will be better than the ones in a centrallly planned economy.

Have you noticed that since 1930 or so, the advances in arms in this country have come due to military involvement? That means they are far behind where they would be if the NFA hadn't passed and individuals could develop adnvanced arms in the exercise of capitalism.

But that's socialism-- need a state army to control the people, need conscription (enslavement) to make sure the army is staffed. No need to respect hte rights of people to make their own choices about their lifes.

The brilliant thing about america, is we pretend that we are still the original america and were never taken over by socialism.
 
the real america, back when human rights were respected

I don't think you will find "the good old times" no matter how far back you go. Different issues and problems back then, but same imperfect people.
 
They talk even less about the confederacy of states-- the real america, back when human rights were respected and socialism had not taken over.

One of the reasons for the creation of the federalist-type Constitution was the realization that the Articles of Confederation failed in several aspects when it came to protecting the rights of individuals. Shay's Rebellion, for example, showed that the government was too weak to enforce the property rights of the creditors who tried to foreclose on farmers' properties. Armed resistance by the farmers was enough to render the judiciary impotent. As a result, more property owners saw the need for a stronger federal government, since the first responsibility of government is the safeguarding of its citizens' rights against infringement by fraud or force.

Oh, and in the "real America", the right to vote, along with other rights, was limited to white, male property owners. It was also legal to own people, if they were of the proper hue. It was definitely not the era of universally respected human rights.
 
That does not show the need for stronger government!

That shows the needs for creditors to have enforceable agreements... and I don't mean they're calling in the government to enforce their rights.

Government is a disease masquarading as its own cure. When there's a problem, people always think the government should fix it, but invariably the "cure" is worse than the disease!

Oleg is right, but certain rights-- like the right to secede-- were respected back then.

Without the right to secede, all the other rights are less important. IF you don't have the right to leave a fight, then the right to defend yourself in it is kinda silly-- self defense requires being able to leave when you're outnumbered.

Yes, lots of rights were not well respected then and my statement was overbroad-- but the fundamental right of free association was more respected, and most of the infringements that have been created since then are due to the loss of that right.
 
That shows the needs for creditors to have enforceable agreements... and I don't mean they're calling in the government to enforce their rights.

That statement makes no sense. The contracts of the creditors were legally binding, but the farmers gathered in mobs and physically assaulted the judges trying to enforce the legal foreclosures. How would you define "enforceable" agreements?

Many folks know that I am as libertarian as they come, but I recognize that a libertarian soicety can only work when all parties involved hold themselves to the non-aggression principle. I do not know how a system can continue to work when old-fashioned mob violence infringes on the property rights of an individual. The only recourse would be for that individual to (rightfully) reply with superior force, but then we are back to the ability to enforce contracts. You still need a neutral arbiter for disputes, whether that party is a private judge or a public one. The Articles of Confederation showed that there was no mechanism in place to protect the rights of those who did not have the means to defend those rights against mob violence.

That does not necessarily claim that we need government, just that we will always need neutral arbiters for civil disputes, lest we fall back to mob rule and a feudal system.
 
draft

Oh yeah, the "Volunteer" force may be adequate now, but what about the future? Do you honestly believe that young people will continue to volunteer, when year after year, administration after administration continue to send our troops into these "no end in sight battles"? I bet not. I volunteered in 1976, but I still think the idea of a draft may not be totally off base. If nothing else it would teach our young people discipline, which is lacking in our society, in case nobody has noticed. Anyway it's been fun reading all the anti draft posts. One day, when the good ol' USA really gets caught with our pants down, you can all pat yourselves on the back and kiss your asses goodbye. Comparing the draft to slavery....get real! God Bless America USAF Vet :mad:
 
I don't deny that there were problems that needed to be resolved. I just think the Constitution tried to solve them in a way that led to the dissolution of human rights in this country. A big event of which happened when states were forcibly prevented from leaving the union.
 
Ah, so you support the draft so we can have fodder to send troops into these battles to settle the presidents personal vendettas? People see unconstitutional wars that only create enemies for the US and work against our security and don't want to participate, so you think they should be FORCED to?

What do you think slavery is, anyway?

Slavery is when you are forced to work for someone against your will.

When you are forced to become a soldier, against your will, you are working for someone against your will.

The very definition of slavery.

No, you think they aren't slaves because they should be grateful to go fight these-- what did you call them? "no end in sight" battles?

Discipline is lacking in our society---we have too many people who pay lipservice to the constitution while advocating it's violation. For instance, don't military people have to take an oath to defend and protect the constitution from all enemies, foriegn and domestic?

Isn't a president who starts a war without congress declaring war an enemy of the constitution?
 
Socialism was alive and well in 1860: Rousseau, Robespierre, and Marx had well-received works in circulation.

We were fortunate enough that the founding fathers valued Locke and Smith instead.
to settle the presidents personal vendettas
Loaded language argument.
 
Gen X, Y, et al.

Not to worry. You're needed here, as good, obedient, escapist consumers.

Besides, the Government doesn't want TOO many young'ns with gun experience. You never know when that might get to be a problem.
 
Fortunately you can get training outside the military.

We would be better prepared to defend our country, though, without the NFA and other laws that prevent training (and ownership) in modern military weapons.
 
Don Galt said,
Slavery is when you are forced to work for someone against your will.
No its not. If that were the case then my children would be considered slaves as would soldiers in a volunteer army.

slav·er·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav·er·ies

1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2. The practice of owning slaves.
3. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
 
(materdei) If that were the case then my children would be considered slaves as would soldiers in a volunteer army.


:confused: A volunteer doesn't have to sign up; draftees are required to show up...or else.
 
Once they have signed up, trust me, they are forced into labor that they would not do of their own free will. Just leaving is not an option either.
 
I am generally opposed to the draft, but maybe if it were re-instituted for a period of time it would have some good consequences, like getting Americans off the couch and into the voting booth. Isn't the voter turnout something like 50% in this country? That's pathetic--especially considering that by not voting we are assisting the government's transformation from the republic described in the founding documents into a socialist bureaucratic mess. Maybe those of us who are in "generation Y" would start paying more attention to pollitics and those who would rule us if we knew they were sending us to our deaths upon graduation. It digusts me how many people my age don't vote. On the other hand maybe it's better, because they don't consider pollitics or history to relevant to thier lives, don't care, and don't bother to pay enough attention to make an informed decision.

I don't think it will ever happen. The draft isn't coming back. People in my generation (I'm 23) just wouldn't go anywhere if they weren't convinced it was a (really) good cause--meaning the Nazis are in our living rooms. The civil disobedience of the 60's would pale in comparison to the show we would put on. As generations go, we are lazy. Most of us still live with our parents. (I do not)
 
Materdei is right.

Once you enlist, with some exceptions, you're essentially a slave. When they run those advertisements calling military service a "job" they are committing fraud. It is not a job. A job you can resign at any time. IT is servitude under strict conditions about when you can leave.

And as we're seeing now, many people who have left under the rules, via retirement, etc, and are no longer active, or even on the reserves, are being called up, or having their retirement pushed back.

What is it when they can make the rules and you cannot necessarily count on them keeping their promises? (EG: What do you call a guy who believed the recruiters promises?)

That's servitude.

The only difference between a volunteer army and draftees, is that the volunteers volunteered for slavery, and the draftees were forced into it.

This is another problem with the military. Since the primary job of the Military since WWII has been to fight immoral wars, forcing even volunteers to fight an unconstitutional war is a moral crime like no other--- anyone killed in such a situation would be righteously counted as MURDERED. When was the last time Congress declared war?

Anyway, the draft is a violation of everything this country stands for. IF you stand ofr the draft, you stand for forced slavery.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top