Talking draft in light of Iraq occupation

[Don Galt]

Actually, that's a good point.

If the union had not been able to press people into slavery to fight for them, the south would have likely won and the constitution would have been preserved. Socialism may have been stopped. (After all, the civil war was about free-association.)

So, the civil war was won due to slavery--- the north's enslavement of people.

 

[Frohickey]

Enlistment comes along with a contract, and everything is described in that contract. It is a job, but you have to fulfill the stipulations of the contract, same as the other side have to fulfill the contract too. What is different is that the contract is written by one party, and not the other. Most cases, the volunteer does not even read the contract, or its full of legalese that its not comprehensible.

So, I do not agree that voluntary enlistment is slavery. It just has a contract that is not well understood or defined.

 

[Don Galt]

Frohicky-- the difference is that if I as an employer presented that contract to an employee, and they signed it, large amounts of it would be unenforcible under state and federal laws. The military, however, isn't held to those standards... and does in fact violate that contract, or at least misrepresents the contract.

I'll step back from slavery and propose "Dishonest" as a compromise.

Don

 

[MaterDei]

I'll step back from slavery and propose "Dishonest" as a compromise.

So the military goes from being slave owners to being dishonest? One small step back for Don Galt, one giant leap back for the military. I still disagree.

Don, are you suggesting that those in the military should be allowed to quit at any time? Wouldn't that make us French?

 

[longeyes]

"I don't think it will ever happen. The draft isn't coming back. People in my
generation (I'm 23) just wouldn't go anywhere if they weren't convinced it was a
(really) good cause--meaning the Nazis are in our living rooms. The civil
disobedience of the 60's would pale in comparison to the show we would put on.
As generations go, we are lazy. Most of us still live with our parents. (I do not)"

The Nazis are already in your living rooms, on your tv, in your schools, in your Government--you haven't noticed? Gen Whatever getting civilly disobedient? That's a laugh. You have been heard all your lives you are special and the world is yours. You were misinformed. You will go, as always, where you are told.

 

[spartacus2002]

I think a draft would mean repeats of the police-vs.-rioters scenes at the WTO and FTAA protests. It would be the one thing that make the fatassed lazy youths get off their asses and make #$@! happen.

 

[Don Galt]

I'm back onto slavery-- I'd forgotten that you gave up your rights to the judicial system we have when you joined the military.

Hey, if its a job, its a job. If its not a job, then don't say it is.

We really should have volunteer militias, not a standing federal military.

 

[goon]

Goon, "I am not a pacifist" - from one Vet (USMC) to another, you are a head-in-the-sand Isolationist, and that is one step less dangerous than 'Pacifist'. Fat lot of good ignoring rising Islamic Radicalism and Anti-American sentiment did BEFORE 9/11. Do you really think it would help AFTER?

Maybe a little isolationism isn't a bad thing.
Why should we depend on the rest of the world for everything when we can make most of is here?

The only valid argument I have seen to date for the war in Iraq is that it is drawing in foreign fighters (terrorists) who are then promptly shot by our soldiers.
I think that one is more of an accident than part of the plan though.

I would gladly serve my country again.
I wiil not submit to being a peice of meat to get shot up for no apparent reason.

It really comes back to the whole Muslim vs US philosophy.
I don't think that there really needs to be a conflict there.
Muslims have lived in their sandbox for quite awhile without bothering me.

If and when the day comes that I need to fight with the goal of wiping out a whole faith, then I guess I will do what I have to do.
But I am not ready to make that choice yet, and I am sure as hell not ready to have some jerk who sits in an office all day directing other men to die to make that choice for me.

Just for the record, I would also like to point something else out.
We are strong enough to wipe Islamic fundamentalists from the face of the earth.
We know this.
If there can never be a peace made between the US and the Muslims, what reason do we have to not wipe them all from the face of the earth?
Just a little question for any Islamic fundamentalists who happen by this thread...

 

[longeyes]

"We are strong enough to wipe Islamic fundamentalists from the face of the earth.
We know this."

That might be true, militarily, economcially, technologically. But the obvious question is: Do we really have the will? So many forces are converging that want to blunt that will.

 

[rayra]

"We really should have volunteer militias, not a standing federal military."
Wake the hell up, Galt. "volunteer militias" are great for post-natural-disaster duty, or border protection. But your little Libertarian Freeman fantasy craps out when it comes to F-16 pilots or anything more complex that a "militia". You are fantasizing.

And if your selfish self cannot grasp that military service is for a greater common good, and INCLUDES a limited degree of subsuming one's own freedom to protect the freedom of others, FEARING it is 'socialism' or 'slavery', then all I can say is - so happy I served, so you'd have the FREEDOM to be an idiot.

 

[rayra]

Goon, in the days of getting to (or AT) America took a week at sea, Isolationsim was a comfortable and survivable mindset.
I myself would prefer some tougher stance on international trade, dumping H1B visas, scourging illegal aliens of all flavors, doing something to seriously 'F-U' our Enemies and traitorous 'friends', and doing more to reqard those that ARE our true intl friends.
Isolationism cannot work in this Era. ICBMs, Biowar, terrorist infiltration, our own fifth-columnists - there is NO way we can 'pull up the drawbridge'.
A forward active defense is the only choice we've had, since BEFORE 9/11. 20yrs of essentially unanswered attacks on the US, our citizens, our assets throughout the world - It took 9/11 to wake us up enough to do anything at all.
And as we sit here with our TVs full of Laci Peterson, the cross-dressing millionaire butcher, and now Michael-the-pedophile shaping up to be a redux of the OJ fiasco, with communist-backed and run 'anti-war' groups like NION and Intl ANSWER and the clueless children (mostly) of the northwest swarming to the International Solidarity Movement, and people like Galt here tearing at our 225yr-old institutions, and people like you talking about 'Isolation', it's clear we are going back to sleep.

 

[Don Galt]

And if your selfish self cannot grasp that military service is for a greater common good, and INCLUDES a limited degree of subsuming one's own freedom to protect the freedom of others, FEARING it is 'socialism' or 'slavery', then all I can say is - so happy I served, so you'd have the FREEDOM to be an idiot.

No. Freedom to be a CAPITALIST. I'm a CAPITALIST. IF you're going to call me a name, call me the right one-- I'm a CAPITALIST.

Our founding fathers did not want a standing army. They knew what they were talking about, and you should learn that history--and the reasons why-- before you strut around about protecting freedom.

The essense of socialism is that the State has first claim on your life.

The idea that we all have to serve the state "for the common good" is the falsehood sold to people to appeal to their desire to want something for nothing.

You might as well say "tax cuts? You don't *need* a tax cut, but all those people on the dole need your money. Its for the greater good!"

I've yet to meet a "greater good" argument that wasn't at its root socialist. If you are a capitalist and believe in human rights, you should notice that no human rights require the violation of others human rights.

 

[Don Galt]

No ryra-- I'm trying to wake you up!

And get you to respect the 225 year old tradition.

To quote Thomas Jefferson:
"Honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none, I deem [one of the] essential principles of our government and, consequently, [one] which ought to shape its administration. "

Frankly, I haven't seen a glimmer of understanding from this administration, or any of the military people who come on TV, about how one would go about fighting terrorism.

First clue-- War is the worst possible way. Covert operations is the way.

I wonder if fighting terrorism is really their goal... it seems pretty obvious that we are in Iraq not to fight terorrists (no terrorists or WMDs found) but to settle an old score in the Bush family.

Did you know that Osama Bin Laden is rich because Pappa Bush made his father rich with oil deals? Think maybe there might be something to that connection?

Wow, that means our president helped fund terrorists! Amazing, eh? Anyone else with such a connection would be in camp Xray right now.

Oh, and real heros don't have to play the "I'm a hero" guilt trip. You know what you can do with it.

Either you support freedom, and american ideals, or you don't. I don't care what you think you did for this country-- but when you advocate socialism, I'm gonna call you on it.

After all, I'm a capitalist.

 

[Frohickey]

Isolationism could still work. You could be isolationist in political alliances, but very engaging in trade.

How do the Swiss do it? Though, they are not as isolated as they used to be.

 

[Obiwan]

Once again....reality rears its' ugly head

Volunteer Militia would work until a whole brigade decided to just go home!


Too cold, too hungry, etc......I quit..oops...who was watching that flank???

The reason our troops fall under the UCMJ is that there are some additional laws required...and some that are not..

Killing is ok..within certain guidelines.....quitting is not!

Different laws...but there is justice.

We go to war with a bunch of amateurs in todays world and we will all be learning a new language.

The only hope I see for the voluteer militia idea ia mandatory military service...which I do not see as a bad idea.

There are a whole lot of people that would benefit from a little cold, tired and hungry!

They might end up a little more appreciative...and a whole lot more tolerant.

(Covert Ops...right send in all our Arab operators...what ...we don't have any....hmmm try soldiers from Arkansas...can't understand them either!)

 

[goon]

A militia isn't a replacement for a standing army, but I think that it would make a good supplement to a standing army.
Why not have a group of armed, trained men who are willing to defend their homes, families, and country?
Why not have a bunch of guys who go train on and maintain their tanks or helicopters twice or so a month?
I don't really see the problem if they were employed properly.

Something I don't understand is why we need the middle east at all.
We can buy our oil from other places, and we can work on something to make it obsolete in the meantime.
Without American money, I think that they would soon find more constructive things to do with their time.

Why should we continue to buy oil from the countries who hate us?
Why should we pay for their armies with our money?
Why not just get the hell out of the middle of it and save our soldiers' lives?
Then we let the rest of the world know that if we get hit, we retaliate against the attacker's home country with everything we have.
Perhaps the Saudis would be more worried about what their people are doing if they had the fear of American ICBMs hanging over them.

 

[longeyes]

"Freedom to be a CAPITALIST. I'm a CAPITALIST. IF you're going to call me a
name, call me the right one-- I'm a CAPITALIST."

Capitalism requires a legal and social framework within which it
operates. A legitimate role of government is to protect the lawful
operation of commerce and trade and to safeguard private property. You
believe other people should protect your right to be a capitalist is
what you are fundamentally saying. That's not freedom, that's privilege.

 

[Don Galt]

Longeyes sets up the strawman.... it stands for a few seconds...

he swings...

and CONNECTS!

That strawman head is outa here!


Edit for clarification: It should be obvious that I'm not expecting others to protect my freedom, I'm calling for the right to do it myself, and justly. Just because someone claims that they did something to protect me, does not mean I owe them-- especially when what they did undermined my security, and my ability to protect myself.

 

[longeyes]

Don,

You gave me plenty of straw to work with.

This is really pretty simple. You live in a society. That society has certain collective obligations that prop up the individual freedoms you and I both believe are primary. We can't just opt out of that collective obligation because we are "capitalists."

 

[RustyHammer]

Previous thread .. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43922&highlight=register+and+draft

 

[Don Galt]

longeyes--

Every socialist who's ever walked the planet used that same claim.

But the reality is, I don't owe you lunch.

I am responsible for my own lunch. I will pay for it. I'll even buy lunch for some people who can't afford it because I'm charitable.

But when you claim that my ability to eat lunch is only because I've bought your lunch as well, you're pitching the standard collectivist line. ITs as if you think there would be no lunches if we didn't have the government to force everyone at gunpoint to give them food, and then turn around hand hand half the food back to people in th form of lunch (And let the other half rot.)

Reality is, if you make your own lunch, and you don't waste half your food.

This is true for food, water, self defense, fire suppression, retirement planning, healthcare, or any service that the government wants to grant itself a monopoly over.

Why do people constantly think that a monopoly is going to provide better service-- especially when its "customers" are forced to participate at the point of a gun? There's no reason to do a competent job-- after all, you will never lose market share!

I'm not just calling myself a capitalist, I'm trying to explain capitalism to you. It is not just some arcane economic idea-- it is the idea that man was meant to be free.

rayra called me selfish. You better believe it:

"...just listen to any prophet and if you hear him speak of sacrifice-- run. Run faster than from the plague. It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting sacrificial offerings. Where' there's service, there's someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master.

But if ever you hear a man telling you that you must be happy, that its your natural right, that your first duty is to yourself-- that will be the man who's not after your soul. That will be the man who has nothing to gain from you. But let him come and you'll scream your empty heads off, howling that he's a selfish monster. So the racket is safe for many, many centuries." -- The Fountainhead

 

[greyhound]

And as we sit here with our TVs full of Laci Peterson, the cross-dressing millionaire butcher, and now Michael-the-pedophile shaping up to be a redux of the OJ fiasco, with communist-backed and run 'anti-war' groups like NION and Intl ANSWER and the clueless children (mostly) of the northwest swarming to the International Solidarity Movement, and people like Galt here tearing at our 225yr-old institutions, and people like you talking about 'Isolation', it's clear we are going back to sleep.

Yup, on the same day that Al Queda pulled off another bombing of a BRITISH target in Turkey, and that President Bush gave an important speech about the relationship between the US and Britain, the only thing Fox/CNN/MSNBC wanted to talk about was Michael Jackson!:banghead: :banghead:

I couldn't believe it! As far as my question "Are we even at war at all?" at least I now know the TV networks don't think so!

 

[Don Galt]

Of course we're not at war, Congress never declared it.

 

[longeyes]

Congress is too feckless and corrupt to declare very much. They're
afraid any really strong position might lose them votes in the future.

But then there are so many things in this country we are not "declaring,"
believing, so many of us, that if we just don't talk about them they will
just go away and we can go back to thinking happy, comfortable thoughts.

The Elephant is in the living room. In fact he's got control of the remote.

 

[Don Galt]

Yes, and the elephant has "socialism" written in big red letters across his hide.

He has the sheeple supporting the war on drugs-- which is really a war on them.

He has them supporting the war on terror, which is really just christians out trying to persecute muslims.

Socialism has won to the point that people will insist they aren't socialist while spouting marxist ideals.... of course, it helps that they've never read marx and don't really know what socialism is.

They're just sure they aren't it!