Testing pistol loads/rests?

[Axis II]

I loaded about 30 RMR 124GR RN today with HP38 and BE86 and fired them in 3 ways off my caldwell front sand bag but couldn't get the groups some of you guys get. I started with BE86 and 5.3gr at 1.150 COAL and I would say 5 shots at about 10yards fired with the mag well of the handgun sitting on top of the bag but the sights covered my 6''x6'' target and grouped about softball size and 5.5gr BE86 got me the best group with 3 touching and 2 close but far left. I tried the other loads the same way but couldn't even hit the target with a few so I tried resting the frame of the gun on the sandbag and nogo with that also. Out of 5 different charges and 3 different COAL I couldn't get near the grouping you guys show on here.

How do you guys steady a handgun for load development?

 

[egd]

I have the same problem as you. The best way I've found so far is to set at a table in such a way that my forearms are resting on something but my wrists and gun are not. It's kind of awkward at times to get in a comfortable position, but that's how I seem to be most accurate. But that ain't saying much for me. I still can't get groups like these guys shoot.

 

[cp1969]

Get closer to the target. Start out close enough that aiming errors can be easily seen. If it won't group up close, it won't group at distance, that's for sure. Once you find a load that groups well up close, move the target back.

Keep in mind what you're seeing is the total variation in gun, ammo and shooter.

 

[Gottcha]

I loaded up some of the same RMR 124gr bullets with 4.4gr Winchester 231 and turned out pretty good going to test out 4.5 and 4.6 at 1.150 COL. 4.0, 4.2 cycled but looked like buck shot at 10 yards.

 

[jmorris]

I loaded about 30 RMR 124GR RN today with HP38 and BE86 and fired them in 3 ways off my caldwell front sand bag but couldn't get the groups some of you guys get.

Well from fishing And a lot of other stuff on the Internet you just have to tell the story how you want it to sound vs how it really was.

In reality pistols are one of the hardest for me to objectively test because I don’t have a ransom rest I can lock them down in and take myself out of the equation.

Best advise I can provide is that if you can’t shoot 5, 5 shot groups of one combination vs another, from the same gun and tell a difference, you shouldn’t be concerned with the difference.

You can forget about “get the same groups” I can tell you about a 10 shot group size I get with a Contender or XP-100 at 100 yards that will beat a 2 shot group you could get at 3 yards from a derringer. The people are going to be the largest variable then the gun, then the load.

How does factory shoot vs your reloads will matter a lot more than what you read from anywhere.

 

[jell-dog]

I loaded about 30 RMR 124GR RN today with HP38 and BE86 .........

RMR 124gr Plated or FMJ bullets?
I use this MTM pistol rest:
http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shooting/shooting-rests-pr.html
Works well for me, have gotten 1” groups @ 10 yards with my 9mm & 45acp pistols.
Of course, these were my BEST groups while testing load ladders while looking for accurate rounds.
IMHO, you’re starting with pretty strong powder loads, I have found that Alliant’s MAX loads are to hot, I now reduce their MAX loads by 10% and reduce by another 0.3gr to 0.4gr to get MY starting point.
JD

 

[9mmepiphany]

5 shots at about 10yards
How do you guys steady a handgun for load development?

At 10 yards, I usually just shoot over my range bag or a rolled up jacket. When trying to zero, I just rest my wrist on the bag...I don't want is the butt of the gun to be resting on a hard surface. If testing for consistency, I rest the bottom of the dustcover on the bag.

In any case, accuracy will be determined more by your trigger management than anything else. The most common fault of folks testing a load is to look at the target between shots...shoot the group and then check you target

 

[Toprudder]

I usually test my handgun loads @ 10yds, but sometimes I stretch it out to 25yds.

I've done a couple of things to try to take myself out of the equation. For a couple of my main load development guns, I mounted a green laser that can be easily seen in the daylight. I have it adjusted so that the beam is about 2" below the average point of impact. (Otherwise, you may shoot a hole in the point of aim and have nothing to aim at). I also use a rest, for two reasons: 1) Obviously, to hold the gun steady and 2) prevents me from pulling a shot that could hit the chrono.

The rest I use is one that does double duty as a rifle rest and pistol rest:
http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shooting/shooting-rests-k-zone-ksr.php

I don't do it often, but when I do test @ 25yds with iron sights (and no option for laser or scope) I also use a diopter device on my glasses:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/diopter-devices-aid-old-eyes/
This allows my eye to better focus on the front and rear sights while still keeping the target in focus.

 

[Walkalong]

In any case, accuracy will be determined more by your trigger management than anything else. The most common fault of folks testing a load is to look at the target between shots...shoot the group and then check you target

There's a lot of truth in this.

 

[Walkalong]

I shoot loads over the chrono at 5 yards on a target at 7 yards to get numbers and accuracy potential. I do this two hands unsupported. I am the biggest factor in group size, so I have to be able to be brutally honest about whether it is me or the load if the group is poor. And even good ones have to repeat. Some days I can throw out all results because I am simply shooting poorly, not steady, poor trigger control, etc.

 

[Axis II]

I loaded up some of the same RMR 124gr bullets with 4.4gr Winchester 231 and turned out pretty good going to test out 4.5 and 4.6 at 1.150 COL. 4.0, 4.2 cycled but looked like buck shot at 10 yards.

At 4.3 it wouldn't even hit the 6x6 paper i was like WTH!! BE86 shot 5 shots within say 3x3.

 

[Axis II]

RMR 124gr Plated or FMJ bullets?
I use this MTM pistol rest:
http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shooting/shooting-rests-pr.html
Works well for me, have gotten 1” groups @ 10 yards with my 9mm & 45acp pistols.
Of course, these were my BEST groups while testing load ladders while looking for accurate rounds.
IMHO, you’re starting with pretty strong powder loads, I have found that Alliant’s MAX loads are to hot, I now reduce their MAX loads by 10% and reduce by another 0.3gr to 0.4gr to get MY starting point.
JD

FMJ

I did notice the 5.3gr of BE86 was a little warm so i will back it off to about 5.0 and see what that gives me. 5.3-5.4 shots very high and like buckshot but 5.5 shot the best.

 

[Axis II]

At 10 yards, I usually just shoot over my range bag or a rolled up jacket. When trying to zero, I just rest my wrist on the bag...I don't want is the butt of the gun to be resting on a hard surface. If testing for consistency, I rest the bottom of the dustcover on the bag.

In any case, accuracy will be determined more by your trigger management than anything else. The most common fault of folks testing a load is to look at the target between shots...shoot the group and then check you target

My M&P version 1 has a very hard trigger and i would fire without looking to see if i hit it.

 

[jmorris]

I've done a couple of things to try to take myself out of the equation.

I do that often, the easiest way is to use a pistol caliber carbine and a stable rest. Like the 9mm rifle I shot this 10 shot 100 yard group with.



Or use optics on the handgun that allow for precision aiming and the subsequent testing to see how it likes to be held.

As an example, what one of these do you think would give you the best chance at small groups?

 

[vaalpens]

How do you guys steady a handgun for load development?

Are you sure the problem is how steady you are holding the gun?

I think bds has posted a few times regarding having a known load that you know produces a certain grouping. So let' say you are having problems getting loads to group, take some of the known load ammo and shoot a group. If the grouping is what you expect, then you know the loads you are testing is not grouping well. If suddenly your known load is grouping very bad, then you know something else is going. It could be you or something with the gun.

To me the type of rest does not make that big a difference. For me it is more important to get comfortable. If I feel comfortable, and I can grip the gun that is comfortable to me, and I can focus my aim at a specific spot, then it has to be the loads. Currently I am using a scope for load testing and expect a sub 1" grouping at 15yards for an accurate load. When I was just using the regular gun sights, my expectation was sub 1.5" groupings at 15 yards for an accurate load.

My problem using the regular sights was being able to focus at a specific aiming point since the target was badly out of focus at 15yards.

I don't do it often, but when I do test @ 25yds with iron sights (and no option for laser or scope) I also use a diopter device on my glasses:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/diopter-devices-aid-old-eyes/
This allows my eye to better focus on the front and rear sights while still keeping the target in focus.

I was reading up on this today, and actually tried it with just a pin hole in a piece of paper. I could not believe what I was seeing. I was able to focus on my sights and the target without my glasses. Maybe I'll try one of these gadgets one of these days.

At the end of the day I think you need to first identify where the issue is. If it is the loads, then more workup is required. If it is the rest, then work on getting comfortable and trigger control.

I looked at all my grouping data today, and BE-86 in 9mm is not that easy to find an accurate load, well at least for me it is not that easy. I don't shoot the RMR 124gr RN jacketed bullets, so I don't have experience in how easy they are to find a good grouping. In 9mm it has always been easier for me to find a good grouping with different bullets using PowerPistol.

 

[Dwb1957]

I've had good results using the mtm pistol rest at 12-15 yds with open sights. With a red dot and the mtm pistol rest you can really do some good load testing at 25 yds.

 

[Dudedog]

I have found that Alliant’s MAX loads are to hot, I now reduce their MAX loads by 10% and reduce by another 0.3gr to 0.4gr to get MY starting point.

I agree completely!

 

[doubleh]

I repurpose my rifle rest with a top I made to hold a small Pretektor bag and use a small Pretektor brick bag to rest my hands on. I do better with this setup than any other method I've used. I did use one of the older Caldwell combination rifle/pistol rests with three lead ingots glued into the legs to give it a little weight. I do better with the rifle rest rig and I need all the help I can get.

 

[Axis II]

I'm thinking about getting this one. Any thoughts?

https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Pis...pID=31x8QS7TFpL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 

[Toprudder]

I'm thinking about getting this one. Any thoughts?

https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Pis...pID=31x8QS7TFpL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[LiveLife]

I'm thinking about getting this one. Any thoughts?

Anything to steady the front sight is good.

I use Caldwell combination pistol/rifle rest but also have just used small ice chest to steady my hands on. Regardless what you use, key is not moving the front sight when the hammer/striker falls. I also have rail mounted scope mount to use with red dot/long eye relief scope for more precision accuracy testing. It is why I now conduct 25 yard pistol accuracy testing with Pistol Caliber Carbines using scope and bipod (I have JR carbine with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP barrel conversions).

For accuracy testing and shooting for groups, practice dry firing until you absolutely DO NOT move the front sight. Some pistols are better than others and I recommend dry firing pistols while watching the front sight before buying any pistol. Before I bought my last Glock, I went through several before I found one that would not move the front sight. When the LGS staff got curious, I showed him how much the front sight jumped/moved on some of the pistols and he was shocked. This simple "sorting" is like getting a "target" model for the same price.

Front sight will move less as the pistol breaks in and trigger surfaces smooth out but starting with a pistol that won't move the front sight will give you a pistol that is more accurate out of the box. Some members have commented their Glocks won't group like my Glocks and this is why.

My M&P Shield 9mm had to be mail ordered as online sale price was less than LGS wholesale cost. When I dry fired, the front sight jumped and trigger was gritty. I dry fired several hundred times and trigger smoothed out and front sight jumped less. By the time I got to shoot the Shield, I dry fired around 1000 times and after several hundred rounds, front sight barely moved when the striker fell. As many reported, Shield has gotten more accurate as more I shoot it (likely from trigger surface smoothing out) and I can perform fast double tap head shots.

If your pistol will continue to jump/move the front sight, you may consider doing a trigger job or replacing the trigger.

 

[jmorris]

I'm thinking about getting this one. Any thoughts?

To me it seams some guns prefer to touch nothing but me, so they shoot the best if I support myself but no part of them is in contact with anything except my skin.

So I get the best results like this.



Or put more of my body on something solid but still not let the gun touch anything but me. You don’t have to “teacup” it but the bottom of your hand(s) are the contact point, not any part of the pistol.



Just so you know what not to do, this is the “teacup” and I have yet to find it useful for anything. Might be better than the Charlie’s Angles but not something you should do on purpose.



Some I can get by with resting the barrel on something solid and have the other half in my hands. Also, with or without the bag, a better example of putting more of yourself on something solid. Last note, if you shoot a redo on a bag like this, expect damage to the bag.



And some can be in full contact with me operating the trigger (FWIW I don’t get the best results with 1911’s this way, just for illustration).



It doesn’t cost much to test them all and see what works best for you and your guns, not to mention, that’s the fun part.

 

[LiveLife]

+1. Most of my 25 yard group pictures were done with resting bottom of my hands on a small ice chest with pistol touching nothing.

used small ice chest to steady my hands on.

As I mentioned in my previous post, keeping the front sight steady is key and user input on the trigger/grip to pull, push or jerk is what I think often opens up the group or cause flyers. This is supported by same loads shot in carbines not showing flyers at same 25 yards that are evident in my pistol groups.

Yup, I will admit and profess that it is I who cause most of my flyers and not mixed range brass (but we'll cover the effects of mixed range brass on flyers/accuracy in future threads so stay tuned).

I think bds has posted a few times regarding having a known load that you know produces a certain grouping. So let' say you are having problems getting loads to group, take some of the known load ammo and shoot a group.

Very good QC for accuracy testing.

For decades, my reference 9mm load has been Winchester 115 gr FMJ and 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 loaded to 1.130"-1.135".

In recent years, this has changed to RMR 115 gr FMJ (more consistent bullet nose for .003" OAL variance with mixed range brass compared to .005"+) and 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 (Soon to be replaced with Sport Pistol due to less than .05 gr metering quality compared to .1 gr variance when my current 8 lb jug of HP-38 runs out) loaded shorter to 1.110"-1.115" to fully chamber in my Lone Wolf barrel with short leade and for greater neck tension which produced smaller shot groups in my 9mm carbines.

After initial powder work up with new bullet or powder in .2-.3 gr increments, for follow up/more precise testing with .1 gr increments, I will take with me my reference loads to do comparison testing if I can't seem to get tight groups (as depending on what side of the bed I rolled out that day, my accuracy does vary - sad but true ). If my reference load is shooting poorly, then it's me. If my reference load is shooting small groups, it's the new load.

 

[vaalpens]

For accuracy testing and shooting for groups, practice dry firing until you absolutely DO NOT move the front sight.

My new P220 still have some front sight movement when the hammer drops, but it is not affecting my grouping that much. I think how I use the rest is helping since the scope mount rests on the MTM rest.

To me it seams some guns prefer to touch nothing but me, so they shoot the best if I support myself but no part of them is in contact with anything except my skin.

Thanks for sharing all those pictures. My preferred method is probably the 4th image from the top. I hold the gun the way I normally shoot. Rest my hands and scope mount on rest, and also have my elbows on the table. I also have my legs stretched out forward, nice an relaxed. That seems to give me the most comfortable shooting position with a rest, using my fold up chair and fold up table.

 

[Axis II]

How would you guys feel about something like this? I figured the gun would be completely locked in therefore the gun would be the only factor of shooting poorly. I have a half sheet of MDF ive been trying to find something to do with.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E978CB5B1D4E20C1285CE978CB5B1D4E&&FORM=VRDGAR