I'm vacationing in TX and have a question: lots of businesses with no signs about carry and I assume it's permitted with a valid license. I saw one with a "no unlicensed concealed carry" that seemed pretty easy to understand. What is the legal effect in TX of a sign that says "no weapons" or "no concealed carry", like I saw in one store yesterday? I know what it would mean at home in Kansas, what about here?
Texas carry law question
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Mike Faires
Member
While you should review the statute for places prohibited for carry there are only 2 officially recognized and therefore enforceable signs to prohibit carry in Texas. They are commonly known as the "30.06" sign and the "51%" sign. Both are available for review of the actual and enforceable verbiage on the internet.
Have a nice stay and enjoy yourself.
Mike
Have a nice stay and enjoy yourself.
Mike
As Mike pointed out, the official signs are very rigidly defined. The typical "no guns" signs mean nothing, from a legal standpoint. You won't run into many legal 30.06 signs because they have to be quite large to meet the legal mandates. The 51% signs are more common and you should see one in any establishment which derives 51% or more of its income from the sale of alcohol meant to be consumed on the premises of the establishment.
A few oddities of TX law:
Amusement parks above a certain size (Six Flags lobbied for this one) and public sporting events are off limits even if they are not posted.
If a store employee/owner notifies you verbally or hands you a card saying no guns then that notification is binding. Can't remember off the top of my head if there's a legally mandated notification wording for the card or not, but I would probably leave in any event if an employee actually hands you a no guns card, flyer or brochure. That said, I've never heard of it actually being done.
There is no open carry in TX. Even if you are carrying in your car (which is legal without a license) the pistol must still be concealed.
A few oddities of TX law:
Amusement parks above a certain size (Six Flags lobbied for this one) and public sporting events are off limits even if they are not posted.
If a store employee/owner notifies you verbally or hands you a card saying no guns then that notification is binding. Can't remember off the top of my head if there's a legally mandated notification wording for the card or not, but I would probably leave in any event if an employee actually hands you a no guns card, flyer or brochure. That said, I've never heard of it actually being done.
There is no open carry in TX. Even if you are carrying in your car (which is legal without a license) the pistol must still be concealed.
HankB
Member
Note that some places in TX don't require a sign to prohibit concealed carry - these include polling places during an election, a court of law, the secure area of an airport, a correctional facility, etc. (See Texas penal code section 46.035) A TX CHL doesn't exempt you from laws governing Federal facilities, either.
Section 46.035 section (b)(5) states that amusement parks are off limits to licensed concealed carry.
Amusement part is defined in section (f)(1) of the same statute as ". . . a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times . . . "
Seems pretty clear, but if you keep reading the statute an exemption is spelled out in Section (i) which says that "Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06."
So the law prohibits concealed carry in the amusment park, but the prohibition doesn't apply if notice isn't given.
I've read that Six Flags has in fact posted compliant PC30.06 signs at the entrance - so as long as the signs are up, notice is being given, which for law abiding folks pretty much puts Six Flags in the same category as any other business posting a compliant PC30.06 sign.
Well, just to nit-pick a little . . .
Section 46.035 section (b)(5) states that amusement parks are off limits to licensed concealed carry.
Amusement part is defined in section (f)(1) of the same statute as ". . . a permanent indoor or outdoor facility or park where amusement rides are available for use by the public that is located in a county with a population of more than one million, encompasses at least 75 acres in surface area, is enclosed with access only through controlled entries, is open for operation more than 120 days in each calendar year, and has security guards on the premises at all times . . . "
Seems pretty clear, but if you keep reading the statute an exemption is spelled out in Section (i) which says that "Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06."
So the law prohibits concealed carry in the amusment park, but the prohibition doesn't apply if notice isn't given.
I've read that Six Flags has in fact posted compliant PC30.06 signs at the entrance - so as long as the signs are up, notice is being given, which for law abiding folks pretty much puts Six Flags in the same category as any other business posting a compliant PC30.06 sign.
moxie
Member
You will see valid 30.06 signs on most hospitals and clinics in Texas.
Nico Testosteros
Member
And signed or not, it is illegal to carry in a hospital.
Good catch. I had missed that. They changed that law from the original by adding in the the 46.035 (i) exception clause later. I knew that it applied to churches (which were off limits even without signage in the original version of the law) but missed that it also applied to amusement parks.
46.035 (i) also addresses hospitals which means that they must have proper signage to be off limits.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm#46.035
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
...
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
...
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
...
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
...
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
(c) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, at any meeting of a governmental entity.
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
You are correct as far as the statement about being asked to leave is concerned. By law, if you are asked to leave (regardless of any circumstances related to signage) you must leave.
However, that has nothing to do with a sign or the type of sign involved. The requirement to leave if notified is a separate provision of the law. The presence or absence of a sign of any type/size/wording is totally irrelevant in that case.
Any "no guns" sign that does not follow the standards in TX law carries no legal weight. It means nothing and can safely be ignored.
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(c) In this section:
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.
Safely ignored? Really? Have we stooped so low that we gun owners and permit holders "ignore" the wishes and rights of other Americans if we cannot legally be punished. IMO, if a business posts a sign, any sign, it should NOT be ignored and their wishes and Rights respected.
Shame on us for even considering ignoring their sign.
Shame on us for even considering ignoring their sign.
Yes, safely. Yes, really. The law is clear on the issue. In TX, it is perfectly legal to carry into a location without the proper signage even if the owner has posted non-compliant signage.
That's another issue entirely. If you want to start another thread on the ethical and moral implications and considerations involved with legally ignoring another citizen's wishes, I'm sure you could get a lot of people (maybe even me) to agree with your comments. But it wouldn't change the legal situation and that's what this thread is about.
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Apachedriver
Member
Strictly on legal grounds...
...In Texas, 30.06 provides an owner with very specific means to announce his wishes clearly to all gun owners visiting his establishment. By providing for the standardized signage, the law removes any potential claims by a gun owner of not knowing, seeing, noticing, etc. In addition, the owner now has all the weight of the law, thru the use of legal signage, supporting his wishes and no gun owner can say boo about it.
If an establishment owner decides to use means outside the law to make his wishes known, isn't he the one deciding to ignore the clear standardization provided for by the law?
If he wants his wishes clearly known, what possible reason could he have for making such a decision?
The law fully supports the establishment owners morals and ethics over those of the gun owner. Personally, I respect it. I have no issue with it as I then have my own decision to make regarding patronage.
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Flintknapper
Member
Incorrect.
Same mis-information continues to be spread about 'Churches' as well.
BOTH must display the proper signage...or someone in an authoritative position must inform you of their 'no guns policy' and/or ask you to leave.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
If you already know some of the places you are planning on going to in Texas, here is a nice database that will help give you some prior information on who has been reported to post and who has not...
http://www.texas3006.com/
It should be pointed out that if you see a 30.06 sign and it fits all of the physical parameters (letter size, wording, contrasting color, etc.), it still may not be a legal posting. There are still some government entities using such posting on city or county offices. These do NOT apply to government facilities. That isn't to say that it would not otherwise be illegal to carry in a particular facility or part of the facility, only that the infraction would not be a 30.06 trespass (as noted for courts, for examlpe).
http://www.texas3006.com/
It should be pointed out that if you see a 30.06 sign and it fits all of the physical parameters (letter size, wording, contrasting color, etc.), it still may not be a legal posting. There are still some government entities using such posting on city or county offices. These do NOT apply to government facilities. That isn't to say that it would not otherwise be illegal to carry in a particular facility or part of the facility, only that the infraction would not be a 30.06 trespass (as noted for courts, for examlpe).
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
As an aside, to date I do not know of any arrest or prosecution of anybody for violating a 30.06 sign. Many places that have these may have legal signs, but they may not be completely posted legally.
The discussion of hospitals has come up. Thus far I have been in 2 hospitals that are posted at every entrance but the ER entrance. If you enter through the ER, then you have gained entry to the hospital without proper 30.06. So there are some sniggly grey area issues. I would NOT want to be a test case for any 30.06 code issue.
The discussion of hospitals has come up. Thus far I have been in 2 hospitals that are posted at every entrance but the ER entrance. If you enter through the ER, then you have gained entry to the hospital without proper 30.06. So there are some sniggly grey area issues. I would NOT want to be a test case for any 30.06 code issue.
Apachedriver said:
Maybe he/she feels that posting a Complaint sign and having a patron arrested is not necessary?
Maybe he/she feels that gun owners and permit holder are honest law abiding citizens and posting a Non-Compliant sign is a simple way to get his message across without involving Law Enforcement?
Maybe he/she uses a non-compliant sign to keep the Activists from OCT out of his business while secretly allowing those that carry concealed their right to do so and at the same time, keeping Law Enforcement out of the picture?
Maybe his/her insurance Co. requires a sign, but he/she does not agree and a non-compliant sign is the least offensive to his/her patrons?
HankB
Member
Businesses have a lot of laws to comply with, from occupancy limits to employment practices to posting exit signs that meet certain requirements - posting signage that complies with the law is only one of them. If they're a business that's open to the public, they HAVE to comply with the law - their wishes otherwise are legally irrelevant. (A business open to the public is NOT the same thing as private property like a person's home, and is not governed by the same laws.)steve4102 said:
Posting a non-compliant "no guns" sign is NOT complying with the law's notification requirements to keep out CHL holders. And - for all we know - it may be deliberately "non compliant" to quiet the bunny-huggers and other hoplophobes, while (wink, wink) not affecting knowledgeable CHL holders who have no legal or ethical responsibility to second-guess the business owner's motives, only to comply with the law.
Apachedriver
Member
Sec 30.06 doesn’t preclude an owner from asking a patron to leave the premises before having to involve LE. It’s worded to provide for that course of action.
That’s contradictory. How could Law Enforcement become involved if the patron is abiding by the law?
If a patron chooses to ignore a 30.06 compliant sign, it would follow that they are not law-abiding. At least, not in that particular instance. In 30.06, involving LE is not a mandatory thing. The owner can opt to ask the patron to leave first. If the patron refuses, or if the owner is not comfortable with approaching the offending patron, he’ll opt to involve LE.
Besides, if the law-abiding patron chooses to ignore a legal sign that enforces the owners wishes, what possible weight would a non-compliant sign hold for them?
Sorry, but if an owner is looking for secret handshakes or clandestine methods of communication, he needs to look elsewhere. The Sec 30.06 Compliant sign doesn't have any legal provisions to stop OCT or any other activists from entering the premises unless it's a CHL holder with a handgun. Long gun carry is not a part of Sec 30.06. Open carry of a handgun is currently not allowed by Texas law. Neither is unlicensed concealed carry aside from in one's home, vehicle, or while transitioning between those two points.
I agree that is most probably the case. The owner is interested in meeting his requirement to the insurance company. It would appear the non-compliant sign is his winkwink, secret handshake with the CHL holder. If an owner seriously wishes to keep CHL handguns out of his establishment, he’ll choose to use the 30.06 sign over concerns of offending CHL holding patrons.
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ClickClickD'oh
Member
Double Naught Spy said:
According to the Most recent statistics released by DPS, a grand total of 10 people were convicted of Unlawful Carry by a License Holder in 2012, which may or may not contain some 30.06 violations in it.
So yeah, it has happened, but it's very very rare. It is after all a trespass offense. Short of being a complete jerk to the officer summoned to remove you from the property it is not likely to end up in court. It will most likely result in being banned from returning to the property. Of course, you just might get the officer who is having a very bad day and decided it's your turn to take a ride, so it's not wise to risk it.
Did not mean to start a range war among TX concealed carriers. It is interesting that in Kansas we have some of the same debates.
I noted the comments about whether we should ignore signs that are non-compliant. I know there are people who view those signs at least as expressing the property owner's desire to keep guns out, but I am in the group that will walk past a non-compliant sign. After years of effort, the citizens of our state convinced the legislature to permit regulated concealed carry, while keeping methods for property owners to keep law-abiding carriers out. I respect a compliant posting. I am not one of the "concealed is concealed" people. I did not carry at all in TX while there because I was not comfortable that I knew the law. While carrying I am expected to know the law and abide by it, in order to obtain the benefit of it. I expect those posting their stores to do the same. It would do me no good to tell a judge that I just did not understand some law that I had violated. I think the same standard should apply to posters.
I noted the comments about whether we should ignore signs that are non-compliant. I know there are people who view those signs at least as expressing the property owner's desire to keep guns out, but I am in the group that will walk past a non-compliant sign. After years of effort, the citizens of our state convinced the legislature to permit regulated concealed carry, while keeping methods for property owners to keep law-abiding carriers out. I respect a compliant posting. I am not one of the "concealed is concealed" people. I did not carry at all in TX while there because I was not comfortable that I knew the law. While carrying I am expected to know the law and abide by it, in order to obtain the benefit of it. I expect those posting their stores to do the same. It would do me no good to tell a judge that I just did not understand some law that I had violated. I think the same standard should apply to posters.
Jorg Nysgerrig
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I can't imagine why anyone would want to visit a place that places so many restrictions on a right.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Last I read (as a landowner) about Texas trespass law, if you're ordered to leave some property of whatever sort and you immediately proceed to do so, that's the end of it. The landowner has no further legal grounds for complaint. (Assuming you had not done some other illegal act.)
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Every place of business puts a lot of restrictions on your rights, only most people never challenge them. Try taking your church group into Walmart and having Sunday services in the frozen foods isle. Try exercising your freedom of speech to hold a protest in the hardware section. Try setting up your own cell phone sales business in the bakery section. The list of things they won't let you do is pretty much endless, though you may be able to do it in public elsewhere.
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