The .22LR in Actual Use

[Puncha]

Much has been said about not using the .22LR for social uses but I was at the range today and did some scenario training with a ruger 10/22 and a ruger mark II .22 pistol. Here's what I discovered.....

After about 100 warm up shots with each firearm, I found that I could

Draw the pistol and fire 5 high velocity rounds into the 10 and 9 rings of a standard PPC target at 15 yards in about 3 seconds.

As for the rifle, from standing with in a "low ready" position, I could place 10 high speed rounds into the 10 and 9 rings of the same target at 25 yards in 4 seconds.

My questions are......if a single .22 round does not have stopping power, what about 5 - 10 HV rounds striking the heart/lungs/COM of a violent attacker?

Had anyone ever done any ballistics gel testing on the effects of SEVERAL .22shots in quick succession?

From real life accounts, what is the effect of receiving several .22 wounds in quick succession?

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

its been looked into, don't ahve a website for you, but basically the idea is that in a SD situitation, you probably won't have enough time to fire off 5 or 10 rounds, you may only have enough time to fire off one, so you have to choose, would you rather have the stopping power of one .22lr, or one .45auto?

I can fire off an entire magazine and hit the target every time with a .45, but if there is only one bullet between me and the BG, then I want to make it count.

 

[igpoobah]

22 can kill 2 legged critters just as easily as anything else. You put one 22 in the heart, they are going down. It may not be as dramatic, or destroy as much tissue, but it'll get the job done. With a small round like that though, shot placement is paramount.

 

[tinygnat219]

This always seems to come up. The fact is that the .22 has been proven to not be an effective fight stopper. Please be aware of that and carry something bigger that actually has the chance of stopping someone cold before they can do bad things to you before they bleed out.

 

[ken grant]

.22?????

Col. Jeff Cooper once said, a .22 in the eye socket will take care of any problems you may have.

 

[igpoobah]

Col. Jeff Cooper once said, a .22 in the eye socket will take care of any problems you may have.

I've always said the same thing. LOL!

Back to the shot placement thing. There are places tha will make any critter at least run the other way, eyes are high on the list.

 

[critter]

We want to 'stop the BG from doing bad things to us'. A .22 will do that, but it may not do it 'RIGHT NOW'!!!!!!!! The 'RIGHT NOW' part is the reason for bigger payloads.

 

[igpoobah]

We want to 'stop the BG from doing bad things to us'. A .22 will do that, but it may not do it 'RIGHT NOW'!!!!!!!! The 'RIGHT NOW' part is the reason for bigger payloads.

Agreed.

But if it's all ya got, go for the eyes! haha

 

[BBQJOE]

I've often heard that a .22 round tends to dart around when entering the body cavity.
Being told that it is not completely impossible to have a bullet enter the eye and maybe come out a toe.
(Just what I've heard)

 

[ravencon]

Another thought--most hostile encounters don't present you with the opportunity for 100 warm up shots.

 

[Fosbery]

If the .22 LR made a good combat round, police forces and militaries and CCW instructors would be using it. Think of the money they would save! That they do not, I think, ends this nonsense of "the .22 works just as well as any other round".

 

[BBQJOE]

That they do not, I think, ends this nonsense of "the .22 works just as well as any other round".

Yeah, but I bet it hurts like hell!

 

[Technosavant]

1) A .22 will kill somebody. No doubt about it.
2) Unless you score a fantastic hit, it will not cause an immediate kill. Sure, it might sever a vital artery, but that will still give the BG (who might be doped up and not even have felt that hit) enough time to cause a little mayhem on your person. Bleeding out over 5 minutes isn't good enough in a self defense situation- you need to stop the threat, and barring a beautiful shot, that won't happen with a .22.
3) It is highly unlikely you will have enough time to aim for that fantastic shot. You may not even get to bring your sights into play (depends on how things go down).
4) Rimfires aren't reliable enough for self defense purposes. Even if you can knock the left wing off a moving gnat at 50 yards with your NAA mini-.22 revolver shooting off-hand in the midst of the adrenaline shakes while holding the gun at belt level, your mad shooting skillz are pointless if the primer doesn't ignite. Let's face it, they went to centerfire primers for a good reason- they work more reliably.
5) Most .22s with good accuracy are roughly the same size as guns chambered in more powerful calibers. The ones that are tiny aren't accurate enough to deliver that fantastic hit we keep hearing .22 for SD people talk about. Sure, the recoil is lessened, but you're going to need to practice and adjust, whether you're shooting .22LR, 9mm, or .500 S&W.

A .22 is better than nothing. No doubt about that. Sometimes it may be all you have- make the most of it. However, it is not reliable or powerful enough to make for an acceptable self defense round. If you are concerned about defending yourself and your loved ones, you're going to want something larger.

 

[50caliber123]

I think police and CCW trainers who like to enhance their shooting skills use a .22 in a weapon similar in feel and appearance to their duty/carry weapon, if only for the cost efficiency

 

[cdb45357]

OK everyone, I have been a lurker here for many years and this is my first post. BTW, great group of knowledgeable people on this board.

Anyway, with regards to stopping power for any situation, human or otherwise, I equate it to the philosophies of rifles (cartridges) used in Africa. There are distinct types. 1. Hunting rifles (cartridges)- that is, cartridges that will efficiently kill an animal of a specific size; and 2. Stopping Rifles (cartridges)- that is, cartridges that have the best chance of killing the animal RIGHT NOW, regardless of size. These are typically used when a dangerous beast charges the hunter or hunting party.They are designed to have enough power (size and penetration) to reach and destroy the central nervous system with one shot (from any angle) for an immediate cessation of activity.

While I think that the .22 LR can be an efficient killer, I don't think that it passes the test to be an efficient stopping cartridge, and that is what we are after in any self-defense or combat round whether it's one shot or 10.

 

[nplant]

If you shoot someone with a .22, and they found out about it, they might get angry.

Just something I've heard... but heck, in the right place, it'll stop the fight. Also, if you've got the time to fire 5-10 shots that all go to exactly the same place - you may not have been in genuine immediate danger of severe bodily harm or death. So I'm gonna go with the conventional logic on this one - go with the largest caliber you can comfortably control.

 

[supraneurotoxin]

I certainly wouldn't want to be hit with one. a .22 might also might be enough pshycological trama to neutralize the situation. I think it might be a little easier to explain to the LEO a BG with a .22 cal hole in him, still alive but compliant, then a dead BG with his insides all over your living room wall from a 45.
didn't the Israeli army issue the ruger 10/22 as a riot control weapon?

 

[TCB in TN]

A .22 may be sufficient in many cases, but it is very likely to NOT be in many others. I would rather have more gun, Just in case. But there are a couple of things that speak for it. There is the old saying about beware the man with one gun, he knows how to use it. If a .22 is all that you have and all that you can afford, well use it! A pea shooter in the pocket beats a cannon in the car any time.

 

[Justin]

.22 is an excellent round for many things; small game hunting, high-volume practice on a low budget, competition, and just plinking for fun.

However, as a fight-stopper, it's the last thing I'd choose. Just because plenty of people have died from wounds inflicted with a .22 is hardly an indication that it's a great round for personal defense.

 

[quatin]

Can someone post some links or resources to cartridges and "Stopping power" that is actually backed up by some sort of experiment?

I have this faint memory of briefing over an article that basically said the common SD pistol cartridges have negligible stopping power. Therefore you might as well pick something big to do as much damage as you can in the hopes of the assailant expiring sooner than later, but not "RIGHT NOW" unless you hit the head or nervous system.

I also remember someone posting a video of a pistol course where the instructor demonstrated that, because of the fact listed above, in the situation where you only have time to draw and shoot 1 round you are too late and the assailant has got you. He said the best strategy is to have enough distance to draw, shoot and strafe.

Also, the unreliability of the .22lr seems to carry too much hype. Cheap bricks tend to have cheap rounds. Good match grade .22lr are very reliable. If anything just carry a .22lr 9-shot revolver (If you actually decide to carry .22lr). I know Taurus makes one for CCW.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Col. Jeff Cooper once said, a .22 in the eye socket will take care of any problems you may have.

Yes, but you have to hit the eye socket. Your opponent, with a more powerful cartridge, merely has to hit your torso.

 

[Jamie C.]

I carry a .22 auto in my back pocket constantly.
Sure, it's no .44, but then, a .44 won't fit in my back pocket.

About 11-12 years ago, our firearms officer at the S.O. was out out with his wife and had a fellow try to kill him. The only gun he had on him at the time was one of those NAA mini revolvers in .22 lr, tucked in his shirt pocket.

He fired one round to the BG's center mass. The fellow immediately quit what he was doing and laid down and died.

Is this typical? I doubt it. However, I do know that quite a bunch of people.... police officers included... have been stopped and killed by calibers most folks would call "Sub-optimal", fired from guns most of us would scoff at. *shrug*

So, where my piddly little .22 might get me killed, I figure the odds are better that it may just save my neck.



J.C.

 

[cracked butt]

Yes, but you have to hit the eye socket. Your opponent, with a more powerful cartridge, merely has to hit your torso.

Just some anecdotal observations I've made.

We used to butcher pigs every year at a local farm. The pig would be killed with a shot to the head from a ruger single six using a HV .22LR round. The bullets never failed to penetrate the skull and disorientate the pig mightily until it expired up to a minute later. We started using .22Lr after a .38 spcl was stopped by a pig's skull once. The .38knocked the pig flat, but it got right back up and we had to deal with 300+lbs of angry swine.

I wouldn't pick a .22LR for self defense, and certainly not out of short barreled pocket pistol if Ihad a choice, but I have a lot more faith in its ability to penetrate skull bone than the .38 from what I've seen.

 

[FerFAL]

A 22 can kill, and yes, a 22 LR in the eye socket will probably put your attacker down rather fast ( or not, you never know where that little round ends up), still you have to hit him there, and if you trust your life to shooting a quarter size target in a moving threat that is attacking you, maybe even pulling your arm down away from him, you might as well carry a shard of glass and cut the man’s aorta with the secret touch of death move.
I still prefer the 22LR over the shard of glass, but you get the point.
Look, some people get hit in the arm or shoulder with bad enough luck, the 22LR travels and ends up logged in the brain or heart, the round nose projectile always “traveling” through the path of less resistance. Now, would you trust your life to that “one in a thousand” wound?
A woman once killed a home invader hitting him over the head with one of those short midget cement statues, the ones some folks have in their gardens. Would you consider it an adequate self defense weapon?
I remember a high school friend, who’s father used to beat up his wife. The guy was a hunter and had several guns. One day the wife got fed up and when the man tried to hit her she emptied a 22LR revolver into his chest, emptied the cylinder, all 9 rounds.
That certainly stopped the attack, but the man survived, they even got back together, the kid told me his father never touched his mother even since. When I was 17 or so, his father drove us to a party, and during the trip we started talking about guns, I wanted to ask about the... you know… anyway he told the story himself without having to ask, even pulled up the shirt and showed me the holes and ugly stitches. The man seemed to be proud of how his wife stood up to him, go figure, some people are just nuts.
Unless you have some SERIOUS physical limitation, or you simply don’t have anything else, I wouldn’t use a 22 LR for defense. I have a 22LR, and would use it for defense... after I ran out of 9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 357 magnum, 44 magnum, 308, 12 ga, 38 special and 380 ACP.
Carrying a 22LR simply because it’s light, cheap, or because you don’t want to bother learning to use a gun with heavier recoil isn’t very responsible, or a pretty bright idea.

FerFAL

 

[ceetee]

I've only been present once when an actual person was shot in a violent encounter, and that once resulted in a one-shot-stop. The person shot had just turned adult, was violent, drunk, and not likely to be dissuaded by anything short of disabling force, yet one round of .25ACP hardball to the chest from a $50 Raven made him quit the fight RIGHT NOW...