The .22LR in Actual Use

[Geno]

I feel like I'm back in the graduate research courses that I instruct. I am reading so much affirmation-bias that it boggles my mind. The facts, gentlemen, just the facts. So, in search of facts today, I happened upon an excellent read regarding ballistics and wounds (Be sure to visit the diagrams of each caliber's resulting wound, about 3/4 down page):

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

One of the selected references supporting this research was a former document penned by an FBI agent, and instructor at the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

The author/FBI agent asserts that .22LR has probably killed more people than all other rounds combined.

But, there is more. It is a worthwhile read.

Doc2005

 

[ArfinGreebly]

.22 Extra Extra Long Rifle

My dad can whip yours with one hand behind his back!

I can't imagine what y'all are talkin' about.

Of course the .22 is an effective round.

All you need is . . . a slightly longer case to hold a little more powder . . . maybe a little more diameter on that case, and we'll neck it down . . . and maybe add a few grains of mass to the slug and make it a little pointier.

And there ya go: completely effective .22 cal self defense cartridge. In fact, Taurus is making a revolver for exactly that cartridge. Of course, the barrel is 10 inches long, so there may be concealment issues . . .

But I'll bet even the military would buy a cartridge like that.

I'd draw you a picture of that cartridge, but I'm sure many of us have hundreds of examples lying around at home anyway.

 

[FerFAL]

It seems to me that the thing to remember here is how a bullet actually does its killing. Unless the central nervous system is damaged or destroyed, blood loss is all you're working with.

I suppose getting hit in the head by a heavy weight champion wouldn’t affect you, or hit with a car, baseball bat, etc.
I heard that a thousand times ( CNS hits or blood loss are the only ways of stopping someone) and I still don’t understand how anyone came up with that. There are so many cases of people being stopped when shot , without the need of excessive bleeding or central nervous system hits it should be obvious enough.
Many things can “stop” an attacker, including blunt trauma, hydraulic shock that affects organs or overloads the nervous system enough for a person to shut down.
A big bore round through the “privates”? A shattered hip? I know a guy that shot an armed attacker with a 45ACP in the shoulder, the guy went down and was no longer a threat. Hitting him in the bone and the pain involved put him down for good, the arm had to be amputated so I suppose it was bad enough.
A cop getting killed after being shot with a 45 in the arm. The gun had a FTF and he couldn’t clear it with only one useful hand. Countless persons getting shot in other places than central nervous system and going down for good. And then there’s the guy that got shot with a .44 magnum and still managed to RUN for over a block, while holding his guts and stopping them from pouring out of his body.
You never know, all you can do is carry a big bore caliber, in one of the known stoppers variety of premium ammo, and learn how to shoot fast and accurately.

FerFAL

 

[USMC6177]

Someone will say that .22 vs .45 debates are stupid- that the most pressing danger to America today is m'f'ing snakes on m'f'ing planes

Thanks for the weird looks I got from my co-workers when I tried to explain why I was laughing

 

[FerFAL]

Unless you are on-duty Military or LEO, nobody forces you to use a certain round.
Use whatever caliber you want -I don't care because I'll never plan on robbing anyone or break into your home.

What everyone must remember when choosing pistol caliber for SD is that EVERY pistol caliber is underpowered for SD. There is zero guarantee that any pistol round will hit, penetrate or stop anyone.

But a 357 Magnum, with a 125gr. JHP projectile traveling at 1400 FPS has over 90% probability of stopping your attacker with a single chest shot, while the best 22LR has less than 30%.
I pick the +90% to roll my dices, thanks.

FerFAL

 

[meef]

The first groundhog I ever killed was with a .22 rifle. Hit him in the throat. He was gasping for air when I walked up to him, so I shot him in the head. Still gasping. Shot him again. And again. I shot the groundhog 11 times from point blank, all in the head. He was still moving.

Well, okay....

But the main question is....

Did he see his shadow?

 

[xjchief]

It seems silly to me to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger not fully intending to kill them. The second you pull the trigger, 44mag or 22LR you are using deadly force whether you kill the target or not. Why screw around with the 22? I guess if that's all you've got then you'd have to make do but to rely on such a small cartridge to protect yourself seems kinda dumb considering there are so many better options.

My 2 pennies.

 

[rantingredneck]

Goody! A caliber war! Everybody gets to trot out "A .22 will only make him mad" and the other side gets to mention how a .22 that you can carry's better than a .45 that you won't. Also, how a .22 never manages to kill anybody except in extremely weird situations - and then how .45 has a lousy track record of killing people, too.
Somewhere down the line, somebody'll get into the 9mm vs .45 debate - faster follow-up shots vs bigger shots. How much is your life worth? A .22 couldn't take out a canary. A .22 will bounce around your insides like a rubber ball, until your intestines become swiss cheese.
Also of obligatory mention: A .22 will always bounce off the skull. Won't do a thing unless'n you get 'em in the eye socket. Only way to stop somebody with a smaller-caliber weapon is a headshot. Torso shots bounce off. Leather jackets repel bullets better than kevlar.
Someone will say that .22 vs .45 debates are stupid- that the most pressing danger to America today is m'f'ing snakes on m'f'ing planes. Somebody will mention zombies to prove a point, and a discussion of anti-zombie snakeshot will begin. Someone will say that snakeshot is utter garbage. Someone will mention that they can carry any caliber they like, as they have multiple trauma plates duct-taped on their backs.

Summary of the future complete. We now return to our regularly scheduled episode of: "What caliber for bear?"

Why did I have to read that whilst drinking a Coke? Pardon me while I go wipe my nose and my keyboard.....

 

[Neo-Luddite]

On the best day, a .22 (CCI stinger) produces energy just past a standard .380 ACP (this is out of a rifle or long barrel target pistol--not an H&R snubbie, etc). About 325 ft/lbs, IIRC.

It's nothing to sneeze at--and a 10/22 w/ a fat mag hanging low is nothing I would care to face--especially in the hands of someone who has handled that weapon for years and years.

That said, it's a poor self defense choice--unless you are one of the very few who have one in class III config lawfully--and even then it would be a bizzare and exotic choice.

But if it is handy and familiar when the balloon goes up, it's a solid pal within 100 yards or so.

 

[Baba Louie]

For some people, using a .22lr. for self defense might be the optimum round.

Might not be the best choice to recommend for everyone going up against the proverbial drugged up non dead mutant biker gang or Atilla and his Horde of Huns, but if it's all you have or can handle recoil-wise, I'd probably be able to sleep knowing I had something like that at hand (after having practiced to the tune of a few thousand rounds downrange... which, might not be a bad thing from ammunition purchase price point of view).

My biggest fear would be the occasional odd "misfire" which has been known to happen every now and then using rimfire ammunition. Then there's the occasional odd "misfeed" which has been known to happen every now and then using rimfire ammunition. Then there's the speedfeed reload situation should 8 - 10 rds not be adequate in stopping the horde of drugged up non dead mutant biker gang... (problems problems problems, such a pessimist, ain't I?)

Use it if it's all you've got or all you can handle but know your limitiations and the possible consequences of your decision. You'll have the rest of your life to ponder your choice.

 

[REOIV]

I heard that a thousand times ( CNS hits or blood loss are the only ways of stopping someone) and I still don’t understand how anyone came up with that. There are so many cases of people being stopped when shot , without the need of excessive bleeding or central nervous system hits it should be obvious enough.

In each of the examples you give it is either from blood loss or shock to the central nervous system.

Shock is a serious medical condition where the tissue perfusion is insufficient to meet demand for oxygen and nutrients. In other words lack of oxygenated blood to your tissues. It can be either because you have a large wound that keeps the blood from flowing from point A to point B, your lungs don't exchange air anymore because they have been crushed/blown apart or because your nerves are so damaged that your heart doesn't know what to do anymore.

In any case the ultimate cause of death is lack of fresh blood to the brain or nerve damage that leads to a lack of fresh blood to the brain. That is assuming you didn't destroy the brain which again would keep it from getting fresh blood.

Also just because you don't see blood doesn't mean there isn't a ton of it pooling in the bad guys guts. Humans are essentially giant skin bags and our guts will gladly fill with any fluid that pours into them.

 

[Scanr]

Well, I do have some old 22 hollow point ammo, it may open up into something remotely dangerous.

 

[orionengnr]

I've often heard that a .22 round tends to dart around when entering the body cavity. Being told that it is not completely impossible to have a bullet enter the eye and maybe come out a toe.
(Just what I've heard)

Gee, how many inches of penetration would that be? Between 72 and 80 inches?
As LBJ said in Forrest Gump, "I'd like to see that..."

I think it might be a little easier to explain to the LEO a BG with a .22 cal hole in him, still alive but compliant, then (sic) a dead BG with his insides all over your living room wall from a 45.

Somebody's been hitting the Kool-Aid again...

 

[Tharg]

a 22lr can kill anything... i've shot all sorts of things and had it kill them. (obviously not people - i'd not be sitting here reporting it ) That being said... its not effective if shot placement isn't just right. Follow up shots are then required. in my exp... .357mag seems to work MUCH better than .22lr..

ALL that being said - i'm reminded of a CHL carrier in Tyler Tx who lost his life placing 6 rounds of .45acp into body mass of some wack job wearing 2 flack jackets and trying to kill his wife w/ an AK outside a courthouse. The BG didn't go down and tracked down the guy while he was reloading. (or whatever he was doing, maybe he didn't have another mag...) either way he got the attention, but didn't put down the bad guy.

ALSO reminded of two BG's who didn't like the cop as the cop was arresting them, they shot a combined 21 shots? (15 or 16 9mm + 6 45 i think... guessing at caliber by number of shots per gun) and only managed to hit him twice in non-lethal area's. This was also East Texas as i recall... Prolly could find the video on Utube... rofl.

nothing is guaranteed folks. Practice, training, shot placement are the only variables you can count on. Even then the vulgarities of chance will pop their ugly heads.

I'd rather a 22 than nothing, I'd rather bigger than a 22 than a 22... but in the end i'll take what i can get and hope I place it right.

J/Tharg!

 

[TimboKhan]

Doc,

I am frankly not sure if your sticking up for the .22 or pointing out that it is in fact insufficient, but in the interest of supporting my own argument that it is not sufficient as a self defense round, let me mention a couple of observations that I got off of your supplied reading material. Let me make it clear that I am aware that you weren't challenging my points in particular, and that this response is to your data, not directed towards you personally.

1. Looking at the ballistics chart, the .22 is in no way, shape or form superior too, or even comparable to the more common self defense rounds. I will admit that I didn't look at every chart, but comparing the .22 between the 9mm, .45ACP, .357Mag and .223 rounds (which I view as being the most popular SD rounds) tells me that there isn't even a little bit of comparison between the two. That wasn't unexpected.

2. Reading the FBI report, you are correct in saying that the Patrick says that the .22 has killed more people than any other cartridge. However, to preface that, he also says that "body count is no evidence of incapacitation". Further, in his conclusion he states that "Psychologically, some individuals can be incapactated by minor or small caliber wounds". He further states that penetration is the key to incapacitation, but that the bullet must be of a large enough diameter. His final sentence probably is the one that supports my argument the best: "Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet".

My main point personally was that the .22 is unlikely to incapacitate the bad guy, a claim that he seems to support. I also said that it is better than nothing, a claim that he seems too at least validate. In any case, given that the goal of SD is to stop the threat (which is not necessesarily the same as killing the threat, but that point is really just semantics), the data you supplied seems to support my claim that the .22 is not sufficient to that task, at least most of the time. I would also point out that Patrick said, essentially, the same thing that I did when he stated that no caliber is guaranteed a one shot stop, unless you happen to hit the brain. He doesn't say this, but I know that given the right angle, the luck of the Irish, and the Hand of God, bullets can be and have been deflected off the skull. That certainly sucks for the person whose skull was doing the deflecting, but when your jacked up on adrenaline, you may or may not notice the pain, and in any case are not incapacitated, at least immediately.

If all I had on hand was a .22, I would use it and who knows, maybe I get lucky and stop the guy in his tracks. Looking at the data you supplied, that seems unlikely, and the guy dying an hour or so after he kills me and my family is very little solace.

 

[SWMAN]

The only weapon I really consider a close-in one shot stopping weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun with 00 buckshot. Even a couple 44 magnum rounds won't necessarily stop a would-be attacker in his/her tracks. One shot stops require some big artillery, regardless of what certain authors would like you to believe.

 

[CajunBass]

About 35, 40 years ago my aunt shot her husband (my uncle of course) with a 22. He was asleep at the time, and she put one round right behind his right ear. He never knew what hit him. Never twitched. DRT.

She then turned the gun of herself and shot herself in the chest five times. The coroner said it took her hours to die.

What does that prove? NOT AT THING except it's what happened that one time. She might have missed the spot and the bullet might have just grazed him. It might have gone right through and through skin. Or she might have hit herself in the heart and bled to death in a few seconds.

My wife used to carry a 22. It was the gun she had confidence in, knew she could shoot, and would carry with her. After a year or so she gained enough confidence in herself and her ability to shoot that she moved up to a 9mm Glock.

But the 22 was a lot better than crying and begging "Please don't hurt me."

 

[brerrabbit]

When shooting the heavy rounds, 45, 357+P etc it takes me time to sight again after each shot. With a 22 I can rapid fire very easy keeping the rounds where I want them. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting multiple time, Ammo is cheap. life is expensive.

The argument may be against a single .22 round, but odds are in a real SD confrontation it will be multiple rounds. With a .22, by the time you get off your first round of .45 or similar round and are readying yourself for the next, I will have four rounds squeezed off.

Think about what the effect of having four to eight 1/4 inch dowel rods inserted into your body to a depth of eight inches or so. This is roughly the effect of what someone using a .22 against another person would be like.

Anecdote: One of my dads friends tried to kill a hog with a close range shot to the head with a .45. The skull captured the slug. But the .22 that was used right after had not problems finishing the job.

Personally I use a .45, but I would not discount the threat a .22 has

 

[20nickels]

One .22 in my body is more than I want. It's probably better than a kubiton, or just pleading for mercy. I'd rather have a 12ga.

 

[hoji]

Given the choice, I would rather use something bigger than a .22. That being said, one hit with a .22 is better than 17 misses with a 9mm.

If you can only afford one gun{including feeding it enough to become proficient} I would have no problem with a .22.

 

[turtlehitman]

"One day the wife got fed up and when the man tried to hit her she emptied a 22LR revolver into his chest, emptied the cylinder, all 9 rounds.
That certainly stopped the attack, but the man survived, they even got back together, the kid told me his father never touched his mother even since."
-FerFAL

that is the funniest thing I have read today.

she had to shoot him and later got back togher with him back

he was shot by her and later got back togher with her:banghead:

whatever, I hope they are happy.

I agree with every one else who said if a .22 lr is all you have it is better than nothing, but I would go with something bigger.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A friend of mine was a Corrections Officer in the Mississippi Prison System. They had an Italian who was studying American prisons. There was a woman in prison who shot her husband nine times with a .22. The Italian asked her why, and she said, "I couldn't take any more of his sh*t."

This answer didn't satisfy him, so he asked my friend, "Why did she shoot him nine times?"

And my friend said, "It was a High Standard revolver. It only holds nine rounds."

 

[IndianaBoy]

I've often heard that a .22 round tends to dart around when entering the body cavity.
Being told that it is not completely impossible to have a bullet enter the eye and maybe come out a toe.
(Just what I've heard)

Yes... because the laws of physics do not apply to 22 caliber rimfires.

Conservation of momentum is all a sham, and a kidney will make a 22 stop and take a left turn. :banghead:

 

[tinygnat219]

Zombies, someone forgot to mention the effectiveness of the .22 round on a zombie.

 

[Hemidart]

I was at an outdoor firing range and was hit in my abdomen just below my rib cage. It was winter and I had a M-65 army jacket over a hooded sweatshirt and a thermal. It felt like someone hit me with the end of a broomstick. I yelled and my friends freaked. There was an entrance hole in my jacket but the bullet got caught between the hoodie and thermal. I had a black welt/bruise that was about 5" in diameter. There were a lot of people there and it was a free for all range, so I never know where the shot came from. I am sure if it was a major caliber I would not be writing this.

But what I learned was that a 22 LR would work great behind someones ear. Other then that they make a great target and plinking round.