No...
The .30-06…the king of cartridges is it fading to the sidelines?
- Thread starter Plainsman
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No...
dogtown tom
Member
Only in America.
"Big game" hunters tend to use whats available in their country. And often thats the same gun and caliber in common use THERE.
Remember, after the Spanish American War, the US stole/borrowed/used the Mauser design for the 1903 Springfield....and we also realized that the .30-40 Krag wasn't as good as the 7x57 Mauser used by the Spanish. The Mauser design led to the 1903 Springfield and the 7x57 Mauser morphed into the .30-06.
The US military adoption of the .30-06 is what made it popular in the US, not because it was the bestest ever. Meanwhile, in the rest of the world.........Mauser ruled supreme. And guess how many countries adopted Mausers in .30-06?
Uh, none. After the WW's, the millions of surplus US rifles made the .30-06 the most common rifle round in America. More than a few Mausers imported to the US after WWII were "converted to .30-06 because those foreign calibers weren't readily available.
Most common in South America or Africa? It ain't the .30-06.
.45Coltguy
Member
Hmmm. Don't live in South America or Africa. They can shoot whatever they prefer. I'll keep my 30-06's. And my Mod 94 30-30 to boot. Just my thought.
d2wing
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Only in America is a very good thing. We are the world leaders. It's our 30-06's that bailed out the whole world twice and stopped the commies in Korea. I am proud of that fact. I have been across both oceans and both borders. I am not awestruck with any other country. Most of them can't have guns and take what they can get.
dogtown tom
Member
. <-------the point. You missed it.
dogtown tom
Member
Oh good grief.
Mosin77
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Actually I’m pretty sure .30-06 is fairly widespread as a hunting round in Africa. At least anecdotally it’s favored for a lot of the thinner skinned plains game by the professional safari guides and hunters, obviously not for elephants or dangerous game. At least this was the case 20-30 years ago.
30-06 was exported all over the world after WWII when we armed our allies with surplus Garands. Many South American countries even rechambered their Mausers for it. Evidently they realized its superiority was now self-evident and our generosity gave them the financial excuse to finally embrace greatness
30-06 was exported all over the world after WWII when we armed our allies with surplus Garands. Many South American countries even rechambered their Mausers for it. Evidently they realized its superiority was now self-evident and our generosity gave them the financial excuse to finally embrace greatness
dogtown tom
Member
Many? Try very, very few........ Many South American countries even rechambered their Mausers for it....
The South American Mausers rechambered to .30-06 was done right here in the USA by importers.
Decades ago I read my first edition Big Game Cartridges and Guns by Keith, and I think it was the 1936 edition. I am of the opinion this was the period that Keith experienced when writing about all the hype around the 30-06 cartridge. To have a feeling for the cultist behavior of the period, you just have to read all the articles in the Arms and the Man, from 1906 onwards, and when the magazine changed to American Rifleman. The editor of the Arms and the Man was a Regular Army Brigadier General (one star), and that was in a time when we had a Major General (two star) as head of the entire Army Ordnance Bureau.
The NRA actually thought itself a pseudo War Department Agency, and it certainty had a lot of military as staff, future Ordnance Bureau Head, Major Hatcher was one. He got his two stars during WW2 running the Army Ordnance Bureau. This is the list of the people who were "Presidents" of the NRA to 1950.
General Burnside 1871-73, Col William Church 1873-75, Gen Alexander Shaler 1875-1877, Judge N. Stanton 1877-1880, Col Gildersleeve 1880-81, Gen Winfield Hancock 1881-82, Gen Molineux 1882-83, Gen US Grant, 1883-84, Gen P Sheridan 1885-86, Gen George Wingate 1886-1902,Gen B Spencer 1902-07, Gen J Drain 1907-1910, Gen j Bates 1910-1913, Gen C Gaither 1913-15, Col William Libbey 1915-1921, LTC Smith Brookhart (also Senator) 1921-25, Senator F Warren 1925-27, LTC F.M. Waterbury 1927-28, LTC Lewis M. Rumsey 1928-30, Hon Benedict Crowell 1930-32, B Gen G.A. Fraser, 1932-34, , Mr Karl Frederick 1934-36, Adjutant General Ammon B. Critchfield 1936-37, Mr Gustavus D. Pope 1937-39, Col L.W. T Waller 1939-41, LTC N. C. Nash 1941-42, Judge Hilliard Comstock, 1942-44, Lt Comdr Thurman Randle 1944-46, Col Francis Parker 1946-48, Dr Emmet Swanson 1948-49, MGen Merritt A Edson 1949-51.
I dare say, lots of Generals on that list.
So given that all human agencies are grandiose, self centered, narcissistic/psychopathic, and that they demand unconditional worship from their members, I am quite sure that someone as independent and self effacing as Elmer Keith would have tired of the bombastic promotion of Army products from the Army, the NRA, and the civilians at the National Matches. I read all the Arms and the Man, and the American Rifleman magazines from 1906 on wards, and they are full of praise for the wonderful, fantastic, incomparable and never equaled Army Ordnance Bureau. In print writers constantly praised the pre WW2 Army. And all you have to do is read the Arms and Man and the American Rifleman prior to WW2, and you will see the cult of the M1903 Springfield and that of the 30-06 cartridge.
The staff of the American Rifleman were really skeptical of the Garand. It was not as accurate as the M1903, and at that time, accuracy was everything.
Prior to the first World War, the 30-06 was a good cartridge. I consider it better than the 303 British and 7.62 Russian with their rims. I think the 7mm Mauser or the 6.5 X 55 would have been better choices as service rounds. However, in an alternate world, if the Army had to have 30 caliber, and adopted the 7.5 X 55 Swiss cartridge we might still have an effective service round in our rifles. The 7.5 X 55 is shorter, has a thicker rim, which by serendipity made it a better round for automatic weapons. My 7.5 X 55 rounds are equal to the 7.62 Nato in terms of velocity.
The doom of the 30-06 was that it was created with an air space and had a thin rim. Having wasted space was not a huge issue in 1906, because the US Army did not have a lot of machine guns, and the future of machine guns on the battlefield was something that everyone except the Germans missed. But being long without purpose made the round heavier, weapons longer, and that is the primary reason the 7.62 Nato round was created. As anyone can see, the 7.62 Nato duplicates the 30-06 issue ballistics in a shorter cartridge.
Of course, with that air space, in a bolt gun, you can add more powder to the 30-06 and have about 150 more fps than the 7.62 Nato/308 Win. At the highest pressures and velocities, a 30-06 is at the bottom end of 300 H&H Magnum velocities. Not that a game animal can tell the difference in impact velocities.
.45Coltguy
Member
.....And that point is exactly.................?
Sorry, you're not convincing anyone here.
I have a 1909 Argentine Mauser that this was done to. They used the original barrel which was chambered for the 7.65 Argentine mauser round. Whoever did this didn't realize that the 7.65 Argentine mauser used .311 caliber bullets instead of the standard .308 caliber bullets used in the 30-06. I didn't find out about this till after I bought this rifle at a pawn shop. Because of this my accuracy is going to be crappy if I shoot .308 caliber bullets out of this rifle. I'm planning on getting this rifle rebarrelled due to this mismatch.
P5 Guy
Member
Everybody knows the .30'06 was made obsolete by the .270 Winchester Centerfire.
dogtown tom
Member
The point is, a "standard" would be something comparable to calibers used in ALL big game hunting.
I responded: "Only in America.
"Big game" hunters tend to use whats available in their country. And often thats the same gun and caliber in common use THERE."Most would understand that to mean that WisBorn's "standard" of big game calibers is limited to his experience and not the world. "Big game" in the US? Bear. And I'm sure a .30-06 would work fine. But "big game" isn't limited to the US, and certainly not to bears.
Few in Africa would consider the .30-06 for dangerous game and likely never have. Not only was it an uncommon round in that part of the world, but weak sauce for rhino, elephant, etc. Double rifles chambered in large bore calibers were much preferred to .30 cal anything.
So when you wrote: "Hmmm. Don't live in South America or Africa."
It's irrelevant where YOU live.
And that's sad.
dogtown tom
Member
<----did the same thing in 1977.
I've since sold that sporterized 1909 and now have two original Argentine 1909 rifles and two carbines all made by DWM. I also have an early '50's FMAP 1909 carbine.
.45Coltguy
Member
The point is, a "standard" would be something comparable to calibers used in ALL big game hunting.
I responded: "Only in America.
Most would understand that to mean that WisBorn's "standard" of big game calibers is limited to his experience and not the world. "Big game" in the US? Bear. And I'm sure a .30-06 would work fine. But "big game" isn't limited to the US, and certainly not to bears.
Few in Africa would consider the .30-06 for dangerous game and likely never have. Not only was it an uncommon round in that part of the world, but weak sauce for rhino, elephant, etc. Double rifles chambered in large bore calibers were much preferred to .30 cal anything.
So when you wrote: "Hmmm. Don't live in South America or Africa."
It's irrelevant where YOU live.
And that's sad.
Well, I live in the USofA. I really am not concerned what other countries' shooters use. So, there's that.
Nothing sad about it. You're simply not going to win the argument. If you prefer other calibers/cartridges, fine. I'll stay with my 30-06's.
dogtown tom
Member
Again, you miss the point.
Whether you are concerned about other countries doesn't change what a "standard" is.
Yeah, it's sad.
I already did.
It's not about my caliber preference.
someguy2800
Member
Better shoot it before you make that determination. I have 4 rifles with .311 bores that all shoot .308 bullets as accurate or better than .311 bullets.
.45Coltguy
Member
Again, you miss the point.
Whether you are concerned about other countries doesn't change what a "standard" is.
Yeah, it's sad.
I already did.
It's not about my caliber preference.
Tell you what. You stay with your beliefs, I'll stay with mine and we'll all be fine with that. How's that? Besides, I want to get back to my 20ga SxS choices. Enjoy.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
Never understood the almost religious loyalty so many people have to inanimate objects.
Kayaker 1960
Member
My primary hunting rifle is a Weatherby chambered in 30-06. I bought it new about 30 years ago. To me the 06 is just about perfect, it doesn't give up much to the .300 magnums with less recoil and less expensive ammo. One of my hunting buddies has been telling me that a good hunting rifle needs to have "magnum" in the name. He hunts with a .300 WSM. Looking at the ballistics, there's about a dime worth of difference between the two.
dogtown tom
Member
And in regards to firearms, to the point of championing the only gun they own as "bestest ever".
When a person asks "what pistol should I get?" Immediately there are responses of "get a Glock", "get a 1911" "get a Sig"........without knowing the intended use.
While you may really love your ________, if you have no frame of reference or experience with shooting multiple brands or platforms your recommendation isn't valuable to anyone but yourself.
In the last few years its silencers. In the NFA forum here, on AR15, Silencer Talk, etc......someone asks "what silencer should I get?" and instantly get bombarded by recommendations from guys with what THEY bought. Not the best. Not what would be best for the newbie. Often those making recommendations don't know the intended host or usage. A police officer has different needs than a squirrel hunter.
I remember my uncles arguing over .243 vs .244 and 30-06 vs .308 for hours. Yet the uncle that always brought back a deer used a .30-30 Winchester 94 with iron sights.
It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian is an old saying.
You can love the .30-06 all you want. Without question it is a great cartridge. Ammunition will be available for another hundred years.
But is it "king"? No, not in ammunition sales, not in rifle sales.
.45Coltguy
Member
I'll be damn! I actually agree with all of this.^^^ Not bad there dogtown tom. Which happens to be my first name as well. Perhaps there's hope for us.
Find a 310 or so expander, anneal the case necks, and find 311 bullets, or something close. If the case neck does not pinch the bullet, you can go .313. This is lower cost than rebarreling.
These pre WW1 rifles were made out materials with a lot of slag and inclusions, so for the same "composition" they are weaker than modern plain carbon steels. And mind you, plain carbon steels of that period are so cheap and low grade, that today they are used for cheap rebar, rail road spikes, etc. No one in their right mind uses these steels in safety critical applications. Recently purchased a $60.00 flywheel, the manufacturer said is was 4340. It would have been interesting to see what their chief metallurgist thought of 1030, which is close to the plain carbon steels used in military Mausers.
And, something else, these actions were case hardened and heat treated to a 43,300 psia cartridge. Just this week asked a Mechanical Engineer whom I respect about using original, period actions in 60,000 psia applications. He thought it a bad idea as the receiver seats will probably set back. He offered the smart thing to do, is have the receiver/bolt die penetrant tested, to find cracks, and heat treated so that any current fatigue deterioration is set back to zero, and have the receiver seats case hardened (again). Case wears, and if the case is thin, the seats will peen out in short order.
You do all this, and you will find you could have purchased a nice, new Savage or Ruger made out of new alloy steels. So really, rebarreling, die penetrant inspection, receiver seat truing and lug truing, and re heat treatment, will be shown to be cost ineffective. And then comes the fact that using vintage receivers at pressures there were neither designed or built to operate, well, if it blows, you have a grenade in front of your face.
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