the dark

[Jeff White]

for those of you who do this at least occasionally, are you alone or with a group? club or open range?

These days, it's alone or with one or two other shooters on private property. Prior to that, on the PD range or an Army range. Never shot on a public range at night except for skeet on a brightly lit range once.

how do you handle safety? same rules as daytime?

Training with one or two others without movement we just get on the line and shoot. With movement, it's one shooter at a time. Left and right limits marked with red chemlights.

With the PD, stationary officers online with an RO for every 3 on the line, with movement, one at a time with RO walking behind. Left and right limits marked with red chemlights.

 

[Chuck R.]

so let me add to the question a bit...


for those of you who do this at least occasionally, are you alone or with a group? club or open range?

how do you handle safety? same rules as daytime?

IDPA Stages & Training are in groups of course. Out back we shoot in small groups of guys I compete and work with. As a matter of fact, due to this thread (and dark at 2000 hrs) I’ve got a couple guys coming out Friday evening to work some drills.

We generally set up stations or lanes with a static firing line at first till everyone warms up, then we work movement into stages with one shooter at a time. Since one of the guys just got a new HD shotgun, we’re going to add long guns this Friday. I won’t shoot past 2200 to keep the neighbors happy, and I’ve got a group of folks from work coming out at 0900 on SAT.

Safety hasn’t been an issue due to limiting the number of shooters, both quantity and shooting experience. Also outdoors at least, it’s never 100% dark, there’s always at least some ambient light.

Chuck

 

[waterhouse]

We are required to train once a month at the range, and we are required to train during our regular working hours. Since I work when it is dark, at least once a month my training is in low to no light. Most of my shooting on my own time is well lit, since that is when my non-work range allows shooting.

 

[Welding Rod]

I do it alone, well with the wife, on either or private club range or in the forest. Our club range is fenced off from the public.

In the forest I have a great spot - a small gravel pit with steep terrain and no roads anywhere near the down range area. It is a very safe place to shoot.

 

[old lady new shooter]

For those without access to a venue allowing low-light shooting, would it work to wear tinted safety glasses at an indoor range? My tinted safety glasses (http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/360-s.html) are really dark...

 

[Jeff White]

That would help. But the big thing about shooting in the dark is identifying your target. Very few situations where you want to shoot in total darkness. Using a light, or a night vision device is a completely different skill set.

One of the things that shooting with your dark safety glasses won't let you experience is the bright muzzle flash of your 686 and how to deal with it. You will still see the muzzle flash but it will be much dimmer through dark glasses then it would be without them.

 

[old lady new shooter]

That would help. But the big thing about shooting in the dark is identifying your target. Very few situations where you want to shoot in total darkness. Using a light, or a night vision device is a completely different skill set.

One of the things that shooting with your dark safety glasses won't let you experience is the bright muzzle flash of your 686 and how to deal with it. You will still see the muzzle flash but it will be much dimmer through dark glasses then it would be without them.

OH, the muzzle flash, that would be a big deal, your pupils would contract from the brightness and then you'd be able to see even less.

Yikes, so many variables...

 

[Sam1911]

One of the stages I set up every couple of years is my "car break-down" or "road warrior" stage where the shooter starts out in total darkness and at the "Standby" command, we hit a pair of 500W halogen work lights shining right at the shooter from downrange (emulating a pair of car headlights). The targets are behind (off to the side of) the "headlights." It is quite a challenge to see through the glare, identify the targets, figure out how to move (get off the 'X') and shoot.

Sometimes we'll do something similar but the stage is lit with a set of emergency strobe beacon lights.



Oh!, and I did a similar stage once where I set up a tent on the indoor range, with the shooter inside, and a Coleman lantern lit in front of the shooter, like a camp site. The targets were farther away, as though approaching from the trees.

That's a good one, except I found out that lantern mantles like muzzle blast even less that halogen lamp filaments...

 

[taliv]

those are great stage ideas sam!

 

[Sam1911]

Thanks!

I also have a supply of candles for my "romantic dinner" stage. Sawhorses and shipping pallets to make "tables" with paper draping a "tablecloths". Threats and non-threats arranged seated and standing at the tables. Lit candles providing the lighting, including a pair on the table where the shooter is seated. Muzzle blast does funny things to candles, too. So you may start out with six or eight candles lit and be firing at the last target with only one still burning.





Having to come up with new and interesting stages every month, year after year ... well, desperation is the mother of invention. And I'm fortunate that the range I shoot at has (...well, 'had') an organization that did all sorts of advanced practical gun training and exploration stuff, much of it with Sims rounds for safety sake. Sometimes the shooters had to submerge their hands in ice water for 5 minutes before shooting, just to get practice with numbness and limited dexterity. Sometimes they had to wear goggles smeared over with vasoline to simulate eye injury, tear gas or OC effects on vision, and the like. Unusual and complex moving and advanced targets. All sorts of nutty stuff. So there's a lot of precedent here for stretching beyond basic IDPA/USPSA stage ideas.

One that I'd really like to put together again someday was a hanging mover that ran on a wire track, and was a more or less 3-D affair, draped with a t-shirt. Inside, the attachment was suspended from the track by a loop that grasped an inflated balloon! The target kept coming at you down the hallway until/unless you managed to hit that 5" balloon under the flapping t-shirt, which would let the "bad guy" drop.

Now THAT'S a stage!

 

[bikerdoc]

Sadly since I retired all my skill are on the slide.
I shoot on family private land for my dark shooting and take other shooting family with me but sadly I bet it is closer to 5% of all rounds down range. The 60 mile drive doesnt help.

 

[entropy]

Usually try to time some of my sessions to end around dusk, so I can practice with the lasers. And without.

 

[taliv]

and one more thread tangent....

do you practice clearing malfunctions in the dark?

last night i was out with some friends shooting ARs and pistols with NV. Had two malfunctions in the AR, first time i can remember in this rifle. Both were case head separation, so obviously ammo related. My friend and I just bought 20k pieces of supposedly once-fired 556 brass, mostly FC headstamp, and I shot the first 200 rounds of it last night to see how it's going to work. Looks like I may be getting a LOT of practice clearing malfs if this keeps up....

Anyway, of course, you can't actually see in the chamber because it's dark, and if you have a weapon mounted flashlight, good luck redirecting that back into your chamber.... heh
With NV it's not that easy either, as you'd have to refocus your nod to be able to see that close.

So, I guess the question is.... can you clear malfs with your eyes closed?

As I was testing new brass, I was more concerned about the malf than the training, so I stopped and collected the pieces for inspection. The second time, i breezed through it pretty fast. Dropped mag, stuck finger in port to makes sure no rounds were stuck, cycled CH 2x, loaded fresh mag and started shooting again

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I have to qualify at night once a year. Besides that though, I shoot in the dark fairly often. I have a home range and I have silencers. I can shoot at night without disturbing the neighbors (who are a 1/2 a mile away anyhow).

do you practice clearing malfunctions in the dark?

I do. I shoot with my brother most often. We both practice clearing malfunctions.

We typically do not practice moving drills when we are together for safety reasons. However we will occasionally practice them when we are not together.

 

[Jeff White]

Anyway, of course, you can't actually see in the chamber because it's dark, and if you have a weapon mounted flashlight, good luck redirecting that back into your chamber.... heh
With NV it's not that easy either, as you'd have to refocus your nod to be able to see that close.

No one had a hand held light?

So, I guess the question is.... can you clear malfs with your eyes closed?

Yes, but with the caveat that some malfunctions (and a ruptured cartridge can qualify) cannot be cleared with immediate action procedures and will require dis-assembly of the weapon in a lighted place. In that case the solution is to transition to the secondary weapon, pick one up from a casualty etc.

 

[taliv]

Yeah actually we all had hand held lights. We just had them off. Just doing it by feel.

Fortunately the next cartridge helped me extract the broken top of the ruptured cartridge so time to clear the malfunction was just a few seconds and didn't require disassembly though of course you're right it often does.

 

[106rr]

In the SF Bay Area, the only place I know of for low light shooting is the Davis St range in San Leandro. There is a Saturday Night Steel Shoot for. 5 PM to 10PM.
You have to attend a safety class given only on the the first two Saturdays of the month, if you qualify you can shoot steel in low light from the holster once week.
You will get more experience in winter because we use the outdoor range. In summer there are longer days. There is some light but not a lot in winter.
Reeds indoor range sometimes offers classes in low light shooting for experienced shooters. I think Lazzarini is teaching the classes now.
When I was younger, I competed I invitational IDPA night shoots. There was one at Turlock Sportsmans Club now closed. I think it has moved to a private range in Atwater, Ca. There is also an invitational night match at Parma, Idaho. This is a very serious and challenging match. It's not open to the public.

 

[MyGreenGuns]

Didn't vote.
I have gone night-shooting a few times but I don't think they represent a full 1%.

 

[wideym]

I haven't gone night shooting since the Army, other than the occasional skunk or opossum that needs dealt with. I try to be a good neighbor and restrict my gunfire to daylight hours.

There is a reason we say we own the night in the Infantry. Most tactical training was done in the dead of night and gave us a tremendous advantage.

 

[Tony k]

I know I should, but I never really do. In the winter months my practice often ends at dusk. I find my self rushing to finish before dark so I can find all my brass:banghead::banghead:. Stuff happens at night...I need to be better prepared for it...

Good reminder Taliv

 

[Saw-Bones]

As a LEO I was in 3 shooting incidents and ALL 3 were at night in dim street lighting conditions.

As a civilian I captured 2 burglars and 1 car thief at gunpoint and ALL were at night in dim street lighting conditions.

My range is very liberal in allowing you to do most anything as long as safety is the major concern, but due to the proximity of a resident nearby there is no shooting after sundown.

For every 8 or so range shoots, I go to a friend’s house in the country and we do a night shoot there. We learned quite a few interesting things practicing in dim and almost no light conditions.

Perps have a predilection for the cover of darkness in my experience, so imo night shoots and night sights/lasers are a must.

 

[old lady new shooter]

As a LEO I was in 3 shooting incidents and ALL 3 were at night in dim street lighting conditions.

As a civilian I captured 2 burglars and 1 car thief at gunpoint and ALL were at night in dim street lighting conditions.

My range is very liberal in allowing you to do most anything as long as safety is the major concern, but due to the proximity of a resident nearby there is no shooting after sundown.

For every 8 or so range shoots, I go to a friend’s house in the country and we do a night shoot there. We learned quite a few interesting things practicing in dim and almost no light conditions.

Perps have a predilection for the cover of darkness in my experience, so imo night shoots and night sights/lasers are a must.

Perhaps you and others could share your experience and opinions of various light and laser devices.

 

[Saw-Bones]

old lady new shooter - I can’t be of much help regarding sights that enhance night shooting because as LEOs we were issued revolvers and shotguns and none of the issued equipment at that time had anything other than open sights. Luckily, in 2 of my shooting incidents the perp was very close, one of which the muzzle of my gun was touching the perp’s abdomen when I fired. The 3rd shooting was successful because I used a 12 ga. shotgun with a 9 pellet load and struck the perp with 4 of the 00 buckshot.

In the civilian captures, my carry gun was locked up with my coat in the supply room and I only had time to grab my office gun. 20/20 hindsight tells me to have at least tritium night sights on any gun that will be used for defensive purposes.

Currently I have handguns equipped with tritium sights, red dots and lasers and I practice with them. I like the red dots the best, but I’m always concerned that the power might go out at the most inopportune time. I like the XS Big Dot sights a lot too. I’m not crazy about the laser sights because I’m so used to using the sights or at least the top of the slide when shooting, however, the laser sights excel in very, very low lighting when I can’t make out the sights at all.

One thing for sure, you can’t just slap on these night sights and lasers and think you are good to go. You’re not… it takes practice, practice, practice…

 

[taliv]

One thing for sure, you can’t just slap on these night sights and lasers and think you are good to go. You’re not… it takes practice, practice, practice…

very true

i think someone mentioned it earlier, but the hard part is usually seeing the target

 

[jmorris]

I always enjoyed night matches but they are very slow. Low light matches are almost as good and if they are indoor go a little quicker. Same rules as daytime but EVERYONE needs a light of some sort as you don't have the same visibility to ensure the range is clear (like the glow band idea though).

If I am killing things, more often than not it is at night because the varmints I get rid of are nocturnal for the most part.

I even built a special device for a non gun mounted light that won me high overall at the first sanctioned low light IDPA match I shot, just took forever...