The Flyboys Get Tough

[K-Romulus]

Good point

AF fuel convoys are run by AF fuels troops. AF supply convoys are run by AF supply troops. Are you suggesting the Army should do it for them?

I didn't think of that one (duh). My knee-jerk reaction to the article I read that also talked about the Navy people was to envision them all getting farmed out to Task Force Yahoo as extra bodies . . .

Ditto for the Navy.

Uhh, I am not sure which convoys those might be except around maybe Basra (Brit AOA) or Kuwait. (But I'm not an expert on that sort of info anymore.) Besides:

http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/2dfssg/med/files/103.htm

The official mission of the Marine Corps is established in the National Security Act of 1947, amended in 1952. Marines are trained, organized and equipped for offensive amphibious employment and as a “force in readiness.” According to the Act, Marines stand prepared to meet mission requirements.
. . .

Provide Fleet Marine Force with combined arms and supporting air components for service with the United States Fleet in the seizure or defense of advanced naval bases and for the conduct of such land operations as may be essential to the execution of naval campaign.

b. Provide detachments and organizations for service on armed vessels of the Navy and security detachments for the protection of naval property at naval Stations and bases. . .

You get the idea . . . That's what I mean - if the Navy has to go ashore and protect itself during land operations, there is a problem. . ..

 

[madmike]

Officially, yes. But the Marines are fighting the offensive war as well. That reduces Fleet Marine forces for Naval installations.

You want to see vigorous outgoing fire, see what happens when someone takes a shot at a USAF convoy of jet fuel tankers.

"So what happened?"

"We took fire."

"What did you do?"

"Returned fire. All kinds of fire. A whole #@$%load of fire."

"Hit anything?"

"Didn't stop to check. We're here, aren't we?"

(Actual conversation I had with a member of our fuel element.)

 

[Phantom Warrior]

They are far more disciplined, motivated and professional in mindset than the typical soldier, IMO (Tell an airman to be somewhere at 0900, he'll roll out of his rack at 0830 and be there, coffee in hand. Tell a soldier, and you'll have to wake up his entire platoon at 0500, hold an accountability formation, go to chow, mill around for a bit, neaten up the barracks, meet at 0830 and hold another roll call to have them ready for 0900), but that mindset is geared for a technical shop, not a battlefield.

No. You won't HAVE to wake up his whole platoon. You will wake up his whole platoon at 05:00 because that's just the way the Army does things. But if you told THIS soldier to be somewhere at 09:00 he'd roll out of bed and be standing tall at 08:50. Sans the coffee. Glass of OJ, maybe.

 

[madmike]

Phantom: Depends on the unit and the soldier. One of the current impasses is trying to get soldiers over the hurdle of, "But if they don't do PT every morning, how does the AF keep in shape?"

"We told them when the test would be and to be ready."

"And that works?"

"There's a gym and a track. All they have to do is go PT."

"But without someone in charge to tell them?"

At the same time, I had to explain to a number of airmen that they were NOT entitled to AC just because it was hot. AFTER mission essential cooling (Food, medication, clinic, critical computers), IF there was equipment and manpower left over, THEN they could have AC. But it's not a right.

 

[Mark in California]

Rear Area Troops

With respect to rear area troops, I remember what a WWII veteran told me. The most amazing thing he ever saw was our stopping the Germans at The Battle of the Bulge.

And who were these troops? They were almost all support personal: cooks, bakers, truck drivers and all other rear area personal. The combat units had been destroyed or mangled and individual members had been killed, wounded, taken prisnor or left disorganized in the rear; while the German army drove thru our lines. It was the soft underbelly of the Army that stopped them.

Everyone should get small arms training. You never know when you might be called upon to need it.

 

[Manedwolf]

Instead of training airmen with battle rifles, why not train them on something with a bullpup configuration that can be easily stowed in any cockpit or attached to an ejection-seat's survival package?

Would seem to make more sense to me... there's no M-16's stowed in fighters and bombers.

Same model as WWII. The front-line infantry got the Garand battle rifles, the M1 Carbine was developed for people who would ordinarily just carry a pistol.

 

[madmike]

Instead of training airmen with battle rifles, why not train them on something with a bullpup configuration that can be easily stowed in any cockpit or attached to an ejection-seat's survival package?

1: 98% of the Air Force doesn't fly.

2: Most aircraft don't have ejection seats.

3: Air crew bailing out need to stay INVISIBLE until found, not fight as grunts.

4: Ground crew can easily carry an M16 and do.

5: Developing a new weapon would cost a fortune that doesn't need to be spent.

6: Sticking yet another weapon into the logistics system would complicate training, parts inventory and delivery schedules.

7: If SHTF, ground crews need REAL rifles, not nifty, stupid PDW crap. (P90 )

8: There WAS a bailout version of the AR back in the 60s, and most helicopter crews now carry M4s. I'm not sure what AF pilots are carrying at this point, but their goal is to stay alive long enough for Pararescue and Combat Control to get a team of bad@$$es in and pull them out, not fight as grunts.

9: If SHTF, Airmen, Marines and Soldiers need to be able to swap ammo and parts back and forth during the fight, not worry about who's carrying what ammo and caliber.

10: I think everyone should follow the Corps' lead and get the M16A4

 

[RevDisk]

And who were these troops? They were almost all support personal: cooks, bakers, truck drivers and all other rear area personal. The combat units had been destroyed or mangled and individual members had been killed, wounded, taken prisnor or left disorganized in the rear; while the German army drove thru our lines. It was the soft underbelly of the Army that stopped them.

Ah, yes, the 28th Infantry Division. Where the cooks and REMF's were more feared than the infantry. (Rightly so, if you ever ate any chow with the 56th.)

Probably just a story, but a popular one. Some soldiers in the 28th noticed some folks heading towards their line. Since no American units were supposed to be in front of them, they opened fire before someone with some binocs noticed the folks were wearing US Army uniforms. Everyone was shocked and upset. Until they noticed the wounded were speaking German. So they opened fire again. Afterwords, everyone naturally agreed that they knew it was a German trick before they opened fire the first time.

They are far more disciplined, motivated and professional in mindset than the typical soldier, IMO (Tell an airman to be somewhere at 0900, he'll roll out of his rack at 0830 and be there, coffee in hand. Tell a soldier, and you'll have to wake up his entire platoon at 0500, hold an accountability formation, go to chow, mill around for a bit, neaten up the barracks, meet at 0830 and hold another roll call to have them ready for 0900), but that mindset is geared for a technical shop, not a battlefield.

Most folks in the Army are 'professional' enough to show up where they're supposed to be. For some reason, a lot of officers feel the need to hold a million formations and micromanage. Especially gorram West Pointers. Most aren't bad folks, but I suppose it makes 'em feel useful or something.

The Charley Foxtrot you described is simply part of the institutional mindset, one I personally did not care for. Not a representation of the quality of airmen or soldiers. I would say such behavior is moreso representive of the officer corps of both services, rather than the enlisted folks.

 

[madmike]

Oh, it's definitely an institutional mindset. But as the leaders lead, the followers follow.

And there are good and bad units in both, and advantages and disadvantages to both styles.

 

[illini52]

I saw a similar article that said that fleet sailors would also be running (land) convoy protection missions.

The USAF has been doing convoy missions for a while. The Army can't support every convoy (not enough people). The AF guys who were trained to work on buses etc are now running armed convoys in Iraq.

I think the idea is rediculous. Zoomies should stick to running the airfield, and squidlies should stick to driving boats.

I wish it were still like that. The "new" Air Force isn't like that anymore unfortunatley. Manpower and resources are stretched wayyyyyy to thin these days.

Is the current US military really that undermanned that these guys have to be pulled to do these groundpounder missions? Are we that bad off?!

The military has been operating at peak capacity for the last 5 years. In those five years, the amount of people in the military has decresed and will continue to do so. The AF is cutting 40,000 enlisted in the next few years. They area also cutting officer numbers as well.
The mission hasn't let up any and it sure looks like it won't well into the future.

 

[Manedwolf]

2: Most aircraft don't have ejection seats.
3: Air crew bailing out need to stay INVISIBLE until found, not fight as grunts.

I do have to wonder, though...when they DO eject, what sort of armament do they have in case they have to hold off at least a couple of hostiles at a distance? Just their pistol?

A survival kit comes off the seat with them, I wonder if they've yet considered one of the folding .223s or such for that? Something like the Kel-Tec that supposedly needs almost zero maintainence?

 

[illini52]

I do have to wonder, though...when they DO eject, what sort of armament do they have in case they have to hold off at least a couple of hostiles at a distance? Just their pistol?

Just the M-9 and a survival knife. The name of the game if one is unfortunate enough to loose an aircraft is escape and evasion. A 9mm pistol is no match for and AK or two. Aircrews are taught how to avoid capture and how to put themselves in a position to be rescued.

 

[madmike]

Hmm...wondering if I know Illini52. Hiya.

Over the years, the bailout weapon has been a .22 hornet/.410 Savage combo, an AR5 in .22 Hornet, then AR7 in .22, then abandoned for an M6 type of thing, IIRC, then a 10" barreled, tube-stocked, 2 finger gripped AR, then a S&W Model 15 in low pressure .38, then the M9.

Enough to kill a rabbit to eat, maybe a small deer, kill a man who gets close or make a bit of noise to scare pursuit away or attract rescue.

 

[Manedwolf]

Over the years, the bailout weapon has been a .22 hornet/.410 Savage combo, an AR5 in .22 Hornet, then AR7 in .22, then abandoned for an M6 type of thing, IIRC, then a 10" barreled, tube-stocked, 2 finger gripped AR, then a S&W Model 15 in low pressure .38, then the M9.

I still think the foldup Kel-Tec SU-16 thing would be perfect for that sort of situation. Easy to fold up in a backpack, but has the full punch of a battle rifle.

But that sort of decision would have to go through "channels", I suppose, and take years.

 

[madmike]

Depends. Some stuff is adopted quite fast if there's a need for it.

Right now, you'd have to show a need for such (And we're not losing many aircraft), and that it was desirable that pilots have the extra weight aboard the aircraft and on person when evading.

I doubt the AF would be interested.

But they did finally decide to adopt active electronic hearing protection.

 

[half elf]

I know this might be beating the dead horse, but my AIT drill sgt. Msgt McDougal taught us that a MOS was what you did during garrison duty, but everyone in a uniform was a 11b as a additional MOS, and that was what you did in combat.

 

[madmike]

Not entirely true anymore, but anyone CAN wind up as the guy at the pointy end, so it's necessary knowledge.

Just like ALL AF engineers are equipment operators and fighting position diggers, regardless of being mechanical, electrical, utility, firefighter or drafting specialties.