The indian not the arrow.......

LoonWulf

LoonWulf

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Joined
Jul 3, 2010
Messages
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Hawaii
To be upfront this is a bit of a rant.....its also posted here because i believe it generally gets applied to rifle cartridges or equipment, more than other things.

That phrase has irritated me since the first time i heard it, even though I agree with the sentiment behind it.

"The person (skills, knowledge, experience etc) is more important than the tool"

What irritates me the most is that its usually applied when someone is being critical of ANOTHER persons choice of tool, or when stating that one particular tool SHOULD be as competent and as effective in someone elses hands.

Understanding what a person is capable of is IMO the first and critical step in choosing the right tool....or if a specific job should even be attempted.
If everyone was the same, with the same experience, and same skill sets, then the phrase wouldnt exist...and we would all be able to do everything.
But were not, and choosing the correct tool for the user makes doing a good job far more likely.

Its also bloody inaccurate!
There are dozens of types of arrows and points with which one can top them.
The majority having fairly specific uses, and in many cases being completely incompatible.....

Anyway, if you got this far thanks for bearing with me lol.
 
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I don't think the phrase is so much criticism of a person's specific choices but rather the idea that people may think buying different or more expensive gear will substitute for skills leading to success. Or to put it more simply having 'superior' tools won't necessarily result in a better outcome for a novice than a skilled person using 'lesser' but still adequate tools for the job.
 
In English we do this all the time, over a wide span of topics: "No offense, but.."; "Not to be rude, but..."; and so on.

Firearms are a topic this applies to, too.

Really the best answer would be "Can't we all just get along?" There are so many ways to get to the same end, that each one can be right for each of us, individually. Human nature, though, is to try and operate as a "herd," that group unity is a sign of group rectitude. And, that's a bit absurd. It can also rile the "I do it my own way" nature we in the "gun community" have as a reflex.

I suppose, a way to deflect this sort of comment might be to point out the various native tribes all had unique ways of crafting arrows, spears, lances and the like, to the point that they could identified after the fact. So, in a way, the "The arrow identifies the Indian." And don't tell me your 22swift is better than my 22-250 :D
 
I agree with you, sometimes you absolutely need a better arrow.

However, in our society today it’s not the usual problem. One has to make intelligent choices of tool and that’s a lot of fun….. but at some point one also has to learn to use the tool right and accept that nothing’s perfect. In today’s culture we tend to throw money at a problem because that’s the easiest thing to do. Let me upgrade to a newer cartridge/more upmarket gun/better scope/blah blah rather than putting in the time to get competent with what we have. Sometimes it’s a matter of learning or relearning fundamentals, or just putting in the time to practice, which today is often proportionately a lot harder than simply buying something “better” in the hopes that it will compensate for our plain lack of skill. I will be the first to admit I fall into this trap too.
 
Personally, I think the phase is asinine.

Better tools and equipment absolutely make a difference in ease of use and ability to achieve better outcomes.

I do metal fabrication on custom cars, take flat sheets of metal and build new fenders kinda work. My own personal English wheel is custom built, weighs a ton and cost me about 3.5k and the set of wheels were another 1k.
Harbor freight sells English wheels, I've used them, cost around 300 bucks.
They bend and twist, the wheels are not parallel to each other.

The ability for a beginner to learn and produce results on my wheel vs the HF wheel is night day. I've seen top tier metal fabrication guys shake their heads in disguist over that piece of junk.

Even something as simple as hammers make a huge difference. A snap on body hammer cost 100 bucks, a complete set from HF is 30 bucks.
Go swing those hammers for a few hours and tell me it's an Indian thing and not an arrow issue. BS

Chip Foose isn't using painting cars with a gun he bought at home depot for 48.99 cause he's Chip Foose and one of the best in world, he's using a 1k Sata cause it produces the best possible results.
 
I get the OP's sentiment.

In addition to; "It's the Indian, not the arrow..."

There's also:

"A real riflemen..." or A true hunter..."

Which is just another way to raise ourselves up, by putting someone else down.

I just figure the guys doing it are experiencing a shortage of kids on their lawn..
 
A mechanical 3 MOA gun is a 3 MOA gun with the best “Indian” out there.

A mechanical sub-MOA gun is just that with the best “Indian” out there.

So seems to me the “arrow” does make a difference.

I get the point of the axiom; but is an oversimplification often times used to disparage a person with more means not necessarily focused on that persons abilities.
 
CapnMac said:
And don't tell me your 22swift is better than my 22-250 :D
Click to expand...
I don't have to tell you my 220 Swift is better than your 22-250 - deep down inside you already know it. :neener:
Just kidding around Capn. I've never even owned a Swift - because when I was "stepping up" from a 223, this "Indian" wisely chose a 22-250 instead of a Swift for a coyote and rock chuck rifle. :D
 
I agree with the general sentiment and I think that these days, skill is often downplayed. However, I despise any implication that the arrow does not matter. I see it every time the discussion is about terminal ballistics, either comparing cartridges or bullets. "Shot placement is all that matters". Ugh. No. Shot placement matters but perfect placement counts for jack spit when the bullet doesn't reach the vitals. Wishful thinking does not make up for choosing the wrong bullet. When discussing terminal ballistics, placement is a given. The discussion is about what happens after the bullet reaches the target. IMHO, this nonsense comes from folks who have nothing useful to add.
 
LoonWulf said:
To be upfront this is a bit of a rant.....its also posted here because i believe it generally gets applied to rifle cartridges or equipment, more than other things.

That phrase has irritated me since the first time i heard it, even though I agree with the sentiment behind it.

"The person (skills, knowledge, experience etc) is more important than the tool"

What irritates me the most is that its usually applied when someone is being critical of ANOTHER persons choice of tool, or when stating that one particular tool SHOULD be as competent and as effective in someone elses hands.

Understanding what a person is capable of is IMO the first and critical step in choosing the right tool....or if a specific job should even be attempted.
If everyone was the same, with the same experience, and same skill sets, then the phrase wouldnt exist...and we would all be able to do everything.
But were not, and choosing the correct tool for the user makes doing a good job far more likely.

Its also bloody inaccurate!
There are dozens of types of arrows and points with which one can top them.
The majority having fairly specific uses, and in many cases being completely incompatible.....

Anyway, if you got this far thanks for bearing with me lol.
Click to expand...
Paradoxically the less skilled person needs better and more expensive tools just to approach parity.
An expert shooter with a 10-22 can outshoot a newbie with a world class rifle.
 
CapnMac said:
In English we do this all the time, over a wide span of topics: "No offense, but.."; "Not to be rude, but..."; and so on.

Firearms are a topic this applies to, too.

Really the best answer would be "Can't we all just get along?" There are so many ways to get to the same end, that each one can be right for each of us, individually. Human nature, though, is to try and operate as a "herd," that group unity is a sign of group rectitude. And, that's a bit absurd. It can also rile the "I do it my own way" nature we in the "gun community" have as a reflex.

I suppose, a way to deflect this sort of comment might be to point out the various native tribes all had unique ways of crafting arrows, spears, lances and the like, to the point that they could identified after the fact. So, in a way, the "The arrow identifies the Indian." And don't tell me your 22swift is better than my 22-250 :D
Click to expand...
1700433618301.jpeg
 
CapnMac said:
In English we do this all the time, over a wide span of topics: "No offense, but.."; "Not to be rude, but..."; and so on.

Firearms are a topic this applies to, too.

Really the best answer would be "Can't we all just get along?" There are so many ways to get to the same end, that each one can be right for each of us, individually. Human nature, though, is to try and operate as a "herd," that group unity is a sign of group rectitude. And, that's a bit absurd. It can also rile the "I do it my own way" nature we in the "gun community" have as a reflex.

I suppose, a way to deflect this sort of comment might be to point out the various native tribes all had unique ways of crafting arrows, spears, lances and the like, to the point that they could identified after the fact. So, in a way, the "The arrow identifies the Indian." And don't tell me your 22swift is better than my 22-250 :D
Click to expand...
Very, very well said.
 
BreechFace said:
A mechanical 3 MOA gun is a 3 MOA gun with the best “Indian” out there.

A mechanical sub-MOA gun is just that with the best “Indian” out there.

So seems to me the “arrow” does make a difference.

I get the point of the axiom; but is an oversimplification often times used to disparage a person with more means not necessarily focused on that persons abilities.
Click to expand...
But a 3 moa rifle with a 15 moa shooter is an 18 moa combination.
A 3 moa rifle with a 1 moa shooter is a 4 moa combination.
 
I agree with you. That statement is overused and misunderstood (like 'the customer is always right ' but that's another rant)

There is obviously a point of diminished returns when it comes to rifle, optics, skills, ammo, etc. But the arrow DEFINITELY matters.
 
I agree and disagree. If properly constrained the saying is pretty accurate but if we apply it too generally then yes the arrow becomes as important if not more so than the Indian.

Two shooter show up to shoot a round of trap and one has #00 buckshot and the other proper #7.5 trap loads. The arrow it going to trump the Indian.

Two shooters show up to an NRL22 match and one has factory heavy barrel 10/22 with an Athlon scope and SK ammo and the other a Voodoo, a Night-Force, and Lapua ammo both setups are more than sufficient for the sport and the Indian is very likely to trump the arrow in most situations.

That saying always rang most true to me at USPSA and IDPA matches. Despite the huge difference in equipment between the Revolver and Single Stack vs Limited and Open at club level matches my Revolver scores if pushed into the Limited or Open division were rarely in last place. A shooters ability to break down a stage and shoot it without misses, no-shoots and mistakes frequently trumps the raw advantage of equipment.

None the less a great shooter with great equipment is a force to be reckoned with.
 
A competent shooter usually has figured out what arrows work and what don't. That's from the experience that leads to competence. The whole issue comes up because manufacturers want us to think we can buy competence and stature. And some buy the concept figuratively and literally. Accomplishment depends on the hardware and the software working together optimally.
 
I’ll agree that it’s a combination of Indian and arrow that performs the task at hand, be it while hunting, shooting clays or swinging plates.

Another thing to consider in the context of the statement is it is most often the Indian who chooses their bow and arrow. So, if said Indian is unknowledgeable about what bow or arrow(s) are appropriate for the task, then it probably won’t matter how well the Indian can send it towards the target.

Stay safe.
 
LoonWulf said:
To be upfront this is a bit of a rant.....its also posted here because i believe it generally gets applied to rifle cartridges or equipment, more than other things.

That phrase has irritated me since the first time i heard it, even though I agree with the sentiment behind it.

"The person (skills, knowledge, experience etc) is more important than the tool"

What irritates me the most is that its usually applied when someone is being critical of ANOTHER persons choice of tool, or when stating that one particular tool SHOULD be as competent and as effective in someone elses hands.

Understanding what a person is capable of is IMO the first and critical step in choosing the right tool....or if a specific job should even be attempted.
If everyone was the same, with the same experience, and same skill sets, then the phrase wouldnt exist...and we would all be able to do everything.
But were not, and choosing the correct tool for the user makes doing a good job far more likely.

Its also bloody inaccurate!
There are dozens of types of arrows and points with which one can top them.
The majority having fairly specific uses, and in many cases being completely incompatible.....

Anyway, if you got this far thanks for bearing with me lol.
Click to expand...


Bravo Sir Bravo I couldn’t agree More! I just recently had my most successful season ever in the Deer Woods I Harvested 4 deer (does) my longest shot was 446 yards Not a brag mind you,The Next Night another Gentleman on that same piece of ground killed his First Deer Ever Do I think he could’ve taken My Gear and killed a Deer at 446 yards certainly not I was using specialized equipment which if you don’t know how to use Could make for a frustrating experience imho his equipment I feel that I could have used to kill a deer at under 200 yards more likely 125 and in that’s not a knock against him just pointing out different tools for different jobs I was after a very specific situation and he was after something totally different
 
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