The New S&W “Response” 9mm carbine

[Mick Boon]

The cost of 30 Carbine is starting to make my 375 H&H look affordable...

I pay no attention the the price of ammo, just the price of components. I load for every rifle I own including 375 H&H. 30 M1 Carbine is very cheap to shoot.

How anyone other than a complete novice does not reload is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Chuck R.]

It’s not about recoil hurting your shoulder like a large caliber rifle, it’s about the gun knocking you out of sight alignment and follow up shots. 2 lbs of steel coming to an abrupt stop in one direction and then turning around and doing the same thing in the other direction makes it difficult to stay on target. If you ever shot a delayed blowback gun with a light bolt you would see what I mean.


When I put the roller delay setup in my gun I took almost half a pound of mass out of the bolt and buffer and went from using a +10% power AR10 recoil spring to a standard carbine spring with like 8 coils cut off. That is a HUGE difference in how much the gun jumps around. Even with the extra heavy bolt and extra heavy spring, mine would still eject brass about 15 feet away and the roller setup ejects about 6 feet. The roller kit comes with a super soft recoil spring that's made from like .040" wire. It maybe has 3 or 4 lbs of force on the bolt. Shooting with that spring the sights don't even move off the point of aim. It worked fine with that but I felt it would probably become an issue when it got really dirty so I replaced it with the cut down carbine spring for reliability.

It's the same with folks poking fun at having a brake on a .223 or my precision rifles cause they don't "recoil".

For the AR, it's all about muzzle movement and split times. That's why it's got the AGB, low mass BCG, short reset trigger, and adjustable buffer. the effect can be seen in accuracy and on the clock.

For the precision rifles, it's all about spotting my own rounds and being able to absorb recoil while prone for a whole lot of rds.

The issue is almost always not understanding the task/purpose for how the gun's set up and applying our own set of values...

A straight blow back 9mm carbine does recoil more, whether it's an issue or not depends on the shooter and task/purpose.

 

[chicharrones]

I pay no attention the the price of ammo, just the price of components. I load for every rifle I own including 375 H&H. 30 M1 Carbine is very cheap to shoot.

How anyone other than a complete novice does not reload is beyond my comprehension.

Lack of time, and when I find time I'd rather be shooting.

I'm able to type this during working hours thanks to being in an office most of this week. But that office is a 4 hour drive from my house, and I typically work 60 hours per week. But when I'm home, the chores of working on the house or working on one of 5 cars (wife, me, 3 out of 4 kids still in the state) leave me no time on the weekends.

I'll never retire, and if I get my weekends back, I'll be traveling for pleasure not reloading ammo.

 

[1KPerDay]

A decent AR can be had for no extra money. Why bother with a pissy 9mm ?

Because you can shoot steel up close with a 9mm and it’s fun. Remember fun?

 

[Mick Boon]

Lack of time, and when I find time I'd rather be shooting.

I'm able to type this during working hours thanks to being in an office most of this week. But that office is a 4 hour drive from my house, and I typically work 60 hours per week. But when I'm home, the chores of working on the house or working on one of 5 cars (wife, me, 3 out of 4 kids still in the state) leave me no time on the weekends.

I'll never retire, and if I get my weekends back, I'll be traveling for pleasure not reloading ammo.

You don't know what you are missing.

 

[Mick Boon]

Because you can shoot steel up close with a 9mm and it’s fun. Remember fun?

But that soon gets really boring.

 

[Robert]

How anyone other than a complete novice does not reload is beyond my comprehension.

See, it's quips like that, that are unnecessary. I reload for everything I shoot. But you assumption that I don't, and many others in this thread, are rather off base. And some of the things you've said, like shooting for fun can get really boring, seem borderline trollish. So, you do you and enjoy what you like, and allow that others may do the same. Without the snark and quips. THR was founded on the principals of being a better forum and reaching all gun owners regardless of skill level. Fun is the whole reason we are here.

 

[Mick Boon]

See, it's quips like that, that are unnecessary. I reload for everything I shoot. But you assumption that I don't, and many others in this thread, are rather off base. And some of the things you've said, like shooting for fun can get really boring, seem borderline trollish. So, you do you and enjoy what you like, and allow that others may do the same. Without the snark and quips. THR was founded on the principals of being a better forum and reaching all gun owners regardless of skill level. Fun is the whole reason we are here.

I was not making a quip, I was telling the truth, I really can not understand people not reloading. As far as I'm concerned others can say whatever they like no matter what their opinions are, it does not bother me in the slightest, and why should it ?

What makes you think I assume that you or others posting in this thread don't reload ?

 

[Chuck R.]

Lack of time, and when I find time I'd rather be shooting.

I'm able to type this during working hours thanks to being in an office most of this week. But that office is a 4 hour drive from my house, and I typically work 60 hours per week. But when I'm home, the chores of working on the house or working on one of 5 cars (wife, me, 3 out of 4 kids still in the state) leave me no time on the weekends.

I'll never retire, and if I get my weekends back, I'll be traveling for pleasure not reloading ammo.

9mm is also one of those cartridges where the benefit of reloading depends...

With the current supply issues, available time etc. it may make better sense just to buy it in bulk. My Dillon 650 is set up for my IDPA/PCC load, but with the cost of primers and bullets being what they are, some of the bulk deals make a lot of sense.

 

[someguy2800]

9mm is also one of those cartridges where the benefit of reloading depends...

With the current supply issues, available time etc. it may make better sense just to buy it in bulk. My Dillon 650 is set up for my IDPA/PCC load, but with the cost of primers and bullets being what they are, some of the bulk deals make a lot of sense.

Working up loads for 30/40 krag is fun. Churning out 3000 rounds of 9mm practice ammo is a chore. After I used up my supply of $30/1000 primers and $17/lb powder, I really had to sit down and do the math. When primers were at their worst I figured out I was paying almost $240/1000 to reload 9mm. That finally made me realize that there are better things I can do with my time. I used to reload everything except 7.62x39 but then started buying 9mm. Now with PSA's excellent and cheap 223 and 300 blackout ammo I've started buying that too. For the rest I do it because I like too and there is no factory ammo in existence for about half my rifles.

 

[someguy2800]

We have drug this pretty far off track so I wanted to continue the delayed vs non delayed discussion here https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-delayed-blowback-recoil-impulse-9mm.924171/

 

[chicharrones]

You don't know what you are missing.

I kind of do. I helped my ol’ shootin’ buddy set up and use his first reloading set up years ago. The fun was in figuring out how to do it, but we bored easily once production got started.

Similar to when I briefly dove into black powder.

I simply like shooting so much more than building ammo.

 

[Mick Boon]

The purpose of reloading is not just to save money, it is to make ammo suited and finely tuned for the firearm being loaded for.... Ammunition is as important as the firearm it's being used in where accuracy is concerned.. Only consistently accurate firearms are interesting.

 

[Pat Riot]

Let’s get back on track, please. This thread’s about S&Ws new carbine.

When I saw that S&W was releasing this new 9mm carbine I couldn’t help but wonder why? They have the FPC that they released at the last SHOT Show (I believe). So, I pulled up the link for the FPC and realized that the FPC only takes S&W M&P mags and it’s basically an enlarged M&P Pistol, more or less.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

The FPC is based on the pistol, it seems.
The Response carbine is based on the AR15

 

[Mick Boon]

Let’s get back on track, please. This thread’s about S&Ws new carbine.

When I saw that S&W was releasing this new 9mm carbine I couldn’t help but wonder why? They have the FPC that they released at the last SHOT Show (I believe). So, I pulled up the link for the FPC and realized that the FPC only takes S&W M&P mags and it’s basically an enlarged M&P Pistol, more or less.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

The FPC is based on the pistol, it seems.
The Response carbine is based on the AR15

Does it have any special features that the rest don't have ?

 

[Hasaf]

Back to the carbine, It just isn't for me. But then I am the person that started writing RIA about a bolt action 9mm. No, it didn't get anywhere, but I tried. I am a bit bored with the AR~ish and Glock~ish options that now dominate the gun market.

I like the Homesteader 9mm carbine, it is just more than I want to spend right now. I like my High-Point/Tower 9mm bullpup carbine. I think I like the Bullpup better than my CZ Scorpion 9mm. . . well, now it is an SBR, so I feel safe calling it a carbine too. I would really like to see a real side-by-side of the various 9mm carbines that are on the market, there are certainly a lot of them.

Just because I am not excited by the S&W carbine's looks does not mean that there isn't someone looking at it right now saying, "Wow! I really like the way that thing looks!" . .. and there isn't a thing wrong with that.

 

[Pat Riot]

Does it have any special features that the rest don't have ?

As far as I can see the only thing that sets it apart is the ability to use Glock or M&P magazines.

 

[George Dickel]

Pistol caliber submachine guns were used extensively during WWII and were apparently deemed an effective firearm. Nearly all the combatants in WWII fielded a pistol caliber submachine gun, so if they were an ineffective weapon do you really think they would have issued so many? I would much rather fire a 9mm PCC in my house than my AR Pistol in a self defense situation.

 

[chicharrones]

Let’s get back on track, please. This thread’s about S&Ws new carbine.

When I saw that S&W was releasing this new 9mm carbine I couldn’t help but wonder why? They have the FPC that they released at the last SHOT Show (I believe). So, I pulled up the link for the FPC and realized that the FPC only takes S&W M&P mags and it’s basically an enlarged M&P Pistol, more or less.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/fpc

The FPC is based on the pistol, it seems.
The Response carbine is based on the AR15

Personally, I'm more interested in the FPC. I like PCCs with the magazine in the grip for shorter overall length and I like the folding feature. Of course, the FPC shouldn't be as robust as a non-folding AR based carbine.

 

[Walkalong]

Without the snark and quips. THR was founded on the principals of being a better forum and reaching all gun owners regardless of skill level. Fun is the whole reason we are here.

Correct, and "thread crapping" is a real thing. It's non THR behavior to jump into a thread where someone is excited about a new product, wants to share/talk about it, and someone does nothing but badmouth that item.

Think it's dumb and a waste of time? Fine, find another thread. It's pretty simple.

 

[Pat Riot]

Personally, I'm more interested in the FPC. I like PCCs with the magazine in the grip for shorter overall length and I like the folding feature. Of course, the FPC shouldn't be as robust as a non-folding AR based carbine.

Of the two I think the FPC is more appealing except I am pretty invested in Glock pistols and therefore the magazines.
One thing I like about the FPC is the weight.
S&W FPC = 5#
Response = 5.9#
Ruger PCC = 6.8#

 

[TTv2]

Coworker told me this was the new S&W and the only thing that this does different is the magwell is removable, it's not like the Ruger which is just an adapter block that goes into the magwell.

My thinking is this could allow for a greater variety of magazines that could be used, but we saw with Ruger they had the opportunity to begin offering different adapters for mags other than Glock and they didn't, thus I don't expect S&W to either, which is a shame because there are a lot of owners of Taurus, SCCY, Springfield, Sig P365, etc. who probably would be interested in a PCC, but don't want to have to buy more magazines.

So, I don't really have any thoughts on this Response carbine by S&W and it's like the 4th or 5th copy of a competitors product that S&W has copied the past few years. I'd like to see some originality and innovation from S&W, but last time they did that they pumped out the CSX and nobody has spoken about it since.

 

[Mick Boon]

Pistol caliber submachine guns were used extensively during WWII and were apparently deemed an effective firearm. Nearly all the combatants in WWII fielded a pistol caliber submachine gun, so if they were an ineffective weapon do you really think they would have issued so many? I would much rather fire a 9mm PCC in my house than my AR Pistol in a self defense situation.

Pistol caliber submachine guns were used as short distance bullet sprayers, a 9mm PCC is in a different category.

The only exception I can think of is a gun developed especially to fill the void.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

One thing not mentioned, it's not an AR patterned rifle. So no swapping out uppers if you happen to have multiples like most people do.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep, but a lot of buyers won't care about that, some definitely will of course.