The perfect home self defense weapon?

[wizard of oz]

Here, home defense is typically a double barrel shotgun. In my case a 18" barrel, sxs coach gun with double triggers. I suppose it's possible to put different loads in each barrel, but I would still I load both barrels with buckshot for self-defense.

 

[mljdeckard]

My primary is my Remington with #4. My wife's primary is an M-1 carbine. I have argued in here with people over whether or not conventional assualt rifle rounds (5.56 and 7.62x39) are appropriate for home defense. I THINK, that they are rounds designed to penetrate AND over-penetrate, and if all you do is switch to a hollow-point and hope for the best, that's not what I would trust to NOT go through walls and kill my kids. (Don't bother refuting, I've been round and round with this in another thread.) The .30 carbine round is like a .357-lite. Hot velocity from the longer barrel, velocity is significant but not hyper, and bullet weight is also significant. BUT, I'll admit, if I hadn't inherited the rifle from my grandfather, I never would have gotten around to buying one.

I had to rethink this yesterday. My next-door neighbor just threw out her husband, and he deserved it. 6'5", 225, alcoholic, attempted suicide, former marine, (significant only because I have no doubt he knows how to kill,) documented propensity for intense domestic violence. He went to live with a meth addict. They have a four year old child together, which he has already attempted to take illegal custody of. She has a restraining order out against him, which he has repeatedly violated. The police are in the process of picking him up, but for the last two days, I had to think 'outside the house', as it were. Our houses sit side-by-side, with carports next to each other, no windows in either carport. She is not emotionally capable of killing him herself, so I'm not going to give her a shotgun and tell her to do the best she can. If she knocks on my door in the middle of the night, I have to think about keeping him from ENTERING the house in the first place. I don't want to grapple in the doorway with someone significantly larger than me with a long gun. In the dark. So, I took out my 1911, which I normally leave in the car, and maxed out the motion sensors.

I told the Sheriff I'm getting tired of living with a known threat next door. (This has been going on for a couple of years.) I have made sure he has seen me moving my shotgun out of the car, I've sat in the carport cleaning all my guns, when I knew he would see me. He's NEVER started a conversation, which is how I like it. In one way, it's an advantage. I don't have to guess what his intentions and limitations are. I already know.

 

[beerslurpy]

another vote for saiga-12. I'd be happy with anything from 14-18 inches in semiauto, assuming I could get high capacity mags. Speaking of which, I need to check on the status of those.

Full auto is unnecessary in a shotgun. Every shot is a short controlled burst of 12 pellets. Emptying the whole magazine into one target is a complete waste.

 

[mnrivrat]

would a semiautomatic shotgun loaded with alternating buckshot/slugs work?

I always enjoy the variety of answers to questions like this so I guess I'll add my 2 cents. Particularly because I stagger buck shot and slugs in my HD shotgun.

It's easy to notice that there is a wide variety of formula's used by people . It is hard to say which is best for any given situation, and hard to fault anyone for what they have become comfortable with. My primary go to HD weapon is a handgun - quick to put into action and get pointed in the right direction I say to myself. About a foot away from this handgun sits my 20ga. short barreled (18&1/4") shotgun with the first two rounds being buckshot, followed by a slug or two and then back to buckshot.

I live in the country with no close neighbors so have my own reasoning for this formula based on my house structure, where I live, no need to worry about over penitration, etc.

So the answer to your question ? It will work just fine , depending on your circumstances , it could well be the best way to go - or not ? Parts of what can and may happen are out of your control.

 

[dfaugh]

At close range, almost anything coming outa the end of a 12 gauge is gonna make a mess outa the BG--Or at least make him rethink his actions. So, to me, the main choice is determined by the risk/danger of overpenetration. I keep my Mossberg (20", cylinder bore, "Special Purpose", 8 +1) loaded with S&B 3" 00 15-pellet buck(actually 7+1 w/ 3" shells). BUT, I don't need to worry about overpenetration, as I live in a semi-rural area. I have a large house so a 40 ft shot is a possibilty. and I might have to take a shot outside at a similar range. I've patterned these loads, and becasue they have no shot cup, they spread really fast (about a 24" pattern at 40'). Basically,with 7+1 I can fling 120 .32 caliber pieces of lead in short order.

 

[GEM]

Blah - my AR with a mounted Surefire, night sights and Federal or Hornaday tact. rounds. No racking or pumping, no excessive recoil. Lots of rounds. No silly staggering of rounds which no one can remember under stress. Don't have to worry if the guy wears a vest or a padded jacket or has breast implants that stop #4.

Got a pair of muffs in the safe room if I do go for the long arm. Shotguns are fine weapons but some of you are overthinking it.

 

[kengrubb]

why don't we ever hear about this phenomenon in every case where a firearm is discharged indoors, whether in defense or in a criminal attack?

Well, the media isn't exactly enthusiastic in it's reporting on self defense shootings anyway, let alone getting all the details right.

Specifically in response to your question, I've read numbers ranging from 130 to 170 db as the sound coming from a 12 gauge, outdoors, with no walls or overhead covering. Most numbers I've read were for a "field length" barrel and the focus was hunting and hearing loss. Shorter barrels, as one would likely find on a home defense shotgun, are supposed to produce even higher db levels.

I'm no expert in hearing loss and sound, and I would be interested to hear from someone with expert knowledge in this area. I know that hearing loss is cumulative from exposure to noise over time, and I'm curious to know whether expert opinion is converging on whether single incidents of noise exposure can cause permanent damage. I've read the advice from supposed experts that says if your ears are ringing after exposure to noise then you've got some damage.

It stands to reason that if one blast from a shotgun makes your ears ring, then not only is there damage but also immediate ringing.

Finally, as any disabling effects, I was referring to that which might be caused by either temporary or permanent hearing loss from the shotgun blast--the audible blast.

 

[Rocksurly]

For home defence i like my pistol grip 12 gauge mossberg 500a loaded with 2 3/4 inch shells of 00Buck. I have tried 3 inch mag rounds of 00Buck but in a pistol grip it's so much kick that it's shoot from the hip only while with the 2 3/4 i can aim and still keep it out of my face.

 

[Socrates]

I like my 375 H&H, with 300 grain soft points, since that's what I've got.
The blast alone is going to knock a human down...
However, this varies with area. I have a friend that lives in the country, with BGs, Hell's Angels, and, large cats, read mountain lions. His choice of defense is a 450 Nitro Express 2, with a 500 JRH revolver for backup.
S

 

[JShirley]

A good carbine with intermediate level rounds is the perfect home SD weapon against humans. It has superior performance in the body vs. handgun rounds, is at least as effective as a shotgun with anything, has lower recoil and higher capacity than a shotgun, and is quicker to reload.

The defensive advantage of the shotgun, is that everyone has one. That's about it.

.223/7.62x39mm rounds were designed to provide a certain level of ballistic performance- terminal performance from the .223 was a happy bonus.

I have tested .223 rounds. In some media, the .223 (with appropriate ammo) penetrated less than some handgun rounds. Bullet selection is important, whatever your target and platform. This is such an obvious statement, I'm somewhat embarrassed that there are those in this thread that seem to need to hear it.

I have been present when full-power- NOT carbine rounds- were fired indoors. No-one fell down. NO ONE went catatonic. I value my hearing, but I can tell you from experience that gun report alone is unlikely to end an attack, unless the intruder runs because they are (1) afraid the next one will hit, or (2) know the police will be coming.

Incidentally, for one round, the police rarely come.

John

 

[sacp81170a]

Specifically in response to your question, I've read numbers ranging from 130 to 170 db as the sound coming from a 12 gauge, outdoors, with no walls or overhead covering.

Really? I'm not disputing that you've read this, but the M84 Stun Grenade is rated at 170+ decibels within 5 feet of the detonation. I've been around 12 gauge shotgun blasts inside training houses and the blast is *not* equivalent to a flash bang. Anyone who has practiced door breaching with a shotgun and heard a flash bang go off knows better.

Finally, as any disabling effects, I was referring to that which might be caused by either temporary or permanent hearing loss from the shotgun blast--the audible blast.

On that point I agree. I will be the first to say that my hearing has not improved from hearing gunfire indoors. The wording of your original post made it sound like a person would be disabled in the same way as a flash bang. One of the things we were always briefed on in flash bang training is that their use is no substitute for sound tactics. You can't depend on the light and sound to disable a determined subject and you always have to remember that the subject could be wearing hearing protection too. The flash bang gives you that critical split second of distraction that makes it more likely that your team will make it through the 'fatal funnel' intact.

The point I'm trying to make is one that everyone seems to be missing. HD situations occur so infrequently that for most, hearing loss from firing a HD weapon should be the least of your concerns. Pick a weapon that does what you want according to your situation and practice, practice, practice. By all means, use hearing protection when you practice. Chronic exposure to loud noises is bad. However, letting potential hearing damage be a major determining factor in your selection of a HD firearm is misplacing your priorities, IMHO.

 

[JShirley]

I 100% agree w/ the last post.

At the same time, where legal and finances allow, a 16" bl suppressed AR would be ideal. Protect your life and your hearing, too.

 

[sacp81170a]

A good carbine with intermediate level rounds is the perfect home SD weapon against humans. It has superior performance in the body vs. handgun rounds, is at least as effective as a shotgun with anything, has lower recoil and higher capacity than a shotgun, and is quicker to reload.

Exactly. In a door kicking situation, the AR will be my primary weapon, the shotgun is a secondary with door breaching rounds. There are good reasons for this, and you just outlined them perfectly.

The defensive advantage of the shotgun, is that everyone has one. That's about it.

Gotta admit it though, a pump shotgun is far more likely to be within the financial reach of most, starting at $200. An AR will start at more like $800 and go up from there. The manual of arms for a pump shotgun is extremely simple, and for those with no military or law enforcement training this is a huge factor.

I'm willing to bet that more people have pump shotguns than AR's. In my situation, with neighbors close on all sides and my wife being familiar with the operation of a pump shotgun, our HD weapon of choice is, TaDa!, a pump shotgun. Notice that I didn't say it was the most effective possible weapon, but that it's our *choice*. Big diff.

Edited to add:

a 16" bl suppressed AR would be ideal.

(Sigh) If only I could afford it...

 

[Srigs]

The perfect home self defense weapon is ... What every you have in your hand when you need it quickly!

I carry mine while at home. It is a handgun.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I prefer 00 buck.

yea im oldschool, but so are the rest of us. I guess that makes 00 buck up-to-date lol.

IM not to concerned that some meth/PCP/crack head is going to think enough to be wearing body armour.

If the intuder happens to have body armour, ill shoot him a couple of times in the chest. After noticing that chest shots dont work i guess my next plan would be the genitals, legs or the head.

i would say a shotgun or a 357 magnum.

Just the noise of a pump shotgun has a devastating effect on morrale of an intruder. unless said intruder is jumped up on drugs.

 

[JShirley]

I don't plan on giving intruders any warning- including the sound of an action being worked. I only want to give them the option to stop aggressive action, place their hands on hand, and kneel on the ground.

If they run (outside), fine. I'll let them go.

If they charge, they take rounds. If they hesitate, I may feel I'm in fear for my life, in which case, they take rounds.

I've been an martial artist for years, too, and to me, "intimidation factor" is about like trusting in pain to stop an adversary. Sure, it MIGHT work, but the only reliable way to stop a threat is:

Structural
Electrical
Hydraulic failure.

That's it.

I wouldn't choose a shotgun first, but I wouldn't feel naked, either. It's still much better than a handgun for HD.

John

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

the sound

of the action on a pump gun says "hello"in many languages.i aspire to not shooting anyone. there are consequences nomatter how righteous the shoot.
if the thunk off the shell goinghome and the kachunk of the action closing makes someone soil their pants and rethink their plans for the evening i'm all for it.the only exception would be if i thought i or my family(as opposed to our possesions) were the target. then i would assure myself that it wouldn't happen again. possibly ira style but i am in no rush to kill someone.

 

[1911 guy]

Cassandrasdaddy, I agree with your ethics.

I also am more than willing to live with the aftermath of protecting my family and also will not take anyone's life over stuff I can replace. That's what insurance is for.

The only thing you may want to rethink is the supposed intimidation of a racking shotgun. There are an increasing number of crimes in which the BG's fully intend to do violence on the family and then loot at their leisure. When someone is planning violence, you cannot deter them with the possibility of violence. But you can beat them to the punch.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

true that!

when i rack it its gonna be pointed at their head. and someones gonna get a real intense assesment by the guts and instincts of a cynical exjunkie. if they are armed i'll assume they are toastable particularly if the weapon is in their hand. if they enter my house at night while i'm there with family they become a very poor actuarial risk. i'd be inclined to assume the worst. i would though noy wanna kill some buddys whos just crazy or otherwise not a threat(altzheimers or such).my conscience carrys enough already. i knew the cop who killed that young kid 20 some years ago in calif when the kid popped up with a toy gun. it almost killed him, and i've known few better men

 

[ACP]

The perfect home self defense weapon is good exterior motion lighting, good window and door locks, and a dog or two. After that, a lock on the bedroom door. Then a revolver.

 

[Geronimo45]

A .30 carbine with the right ammo ought to do a good job. Cheaper than an AR - supposed to be more reliable (I think). A .45/70 ought to be just about perfect, though. Lever action allows you to tote a rifle with any kind of power of ammunition, and load it pretty fast and reliably - and at a good range. The M1 Carbine does kick less and shoot faster, unless you're The Rifleman.
Costwise, a 12 gauge still beats the others, though.

 

[gila_dog]

I live out in the woods 20 mi from a big city. Where I live home defense includes my animals outside (dog, cat, chickens & goats). I keep a Colt Combat Commander loaded with .45 ACP Corbon PowerBall in the bedroom closet. That's for BGs inside the house. I also have an 870 with a magazine extension tube loaded with 00 buck. That's for bears and mtn. lions tearing up the livestock, or if I have to take the fight outside. There's a scoped 10/22available for the dog or coyote that's trying to dig under the fence. The shotgun would work for that too, but I prefer to keep the noise down if possible. I prefer the .45 to the shotgun indoors because a BG may be so close (or around a corner) that any long gun could get taken away from you. I don't know how others feel about this, but it concerns me.

I camp out a lot. I keep a S&W Model 19 .357 mag in the truck, and a Winchester 94 30-30 in the camper. Same potential threats as home, but I like having a bit more range out in the boondocks.

 

[rustymaggot]

geronimo45,
no way is 12 gauge cheaper than .30 carbine ammo. 12 gauge birdshot is cheap but buckshot isnt cheap at all.

you guys will start making fun of me, but id probably go with a .22 rifle loaded with aguilla sss. i shoot my 22 rifles indoors with it and the sound isnt even unpleasant with no muffs. because im not rattled by the sound of my shots ill be able to keep my follow up shots in a better group than what i think i could if i was reeling from the sound of a full size rifle round indoors.

the m1 carbine is a very good round as far as pistol rounds go, and the noise is not too bad outdoors. i imagine its unpleasant indoors but not as bad as a 12 gauge.

 

[OpFlash]

No HD setup is complete without a furry four legged early warning system!

As for weapons a I think a pistol caliber carbine is good for stationary use. Very easy to aim, very low recoil and low flash and report. They are more powerful than handguns and able to discharge a high number of rounds into the BG accurately and quickly. It might not be able to puncture body armor but with 15-20 accurate rounds at a high rate of fire I don't think that's a real issue.

A long gun (no longer than carbine length) is good for your stationary defensive area such as your bedroom. If you have to move around to clear the house ideally you should not use any long barreled weapon but use a handgun kept close to your body in a retention hold instead.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

you guys

made me consider something i'd failed to. the noise factor. i'm wondering though if thats not part of your offensive package. as you've pointed out the noise of a 12 guage is intense more so if its pointed at you and would help to addle your targets. you at least will have a clue when noise is coming