The proper weapon for Appleseed courses

Status
Not open for further replies.
Does Appleseed teach bench shooting? No they do not.

Why not? Could it be that the whole point of Appleseed is to teach real shooting skills?

If not what is the point? Everyone already knows how to sit on a bench and shoot.

They come to Appleseed to learn something different.
 
Appleseed courses recommend that you bring a Ruger 10/22, and many of them do not have sections for using larger caliber guns.
 
So I took my M&P 15-22 out to the range on Saturday to get it dialed in...or at least try. For the life of me I couldn't get any groups, even with a great bench rest, less than a minute of an apple at 25 yards. Maybe it's the 40 year old Winchester Super X ammo I'm using, I don't know. I think I'm going to go out on a limb and try some new CCI Blazer and see how it goes. Using my CZ seems more appealing every time I think about it. I would just have to take the plunge and purchase the extra 5 round mag.
 
Last edited:
I don't know anything about 40yo .22LR ammo. I ran my Savage with a brand-new brick of Blazer, since it groups that stuff quite well. Right on par with Aguila SuperExtra subsonic, not nearly as good as my little stash of Eley, but more than well enough that the lack of getting the expert score was me, time, and so forth, not the rifle, ammo, or zero.

The thing I learned about doing an AQT with a bolt action, from my vast experience of one, was - on stage one, don't waste time. If you have a shot, don't wait for the wobbles to settle after you hit your natural pause. If it's there, let the shot break. If it's not, then wait, but you don't have a lot of time. You have even less on 2 and 3, and you have to really run that bolt to get all your shots done in time.

A CZ is an accurate rifle. So is my Savage. Accurate beyond what is required, really. If you like your CZ, you should try it. But your MP22 should group, I would think, so don't give up on it, either.
 
Skilled riflemen teach the course.. Skills would be natural point of aim, Correct breathing cadence, Proper body stance in all positions, Proper use of a sling as a tool for more consistent shooting and a better shooting platform, Also How the MOA and MIl system works plus a lot more.. to me the best part is the history lesson that goes along with it.. Makes you feel like a American and proud of it..
 
I like to think about it this way.. Lets hope you never have to be in a situation where you need to defend yourself, Family, or Country.. But Are you going to only take a shot to protect yourself or others if you have a nice steady bench to shoot from? And how about making the most of every shot you have? Skills taught in a Appleseed will make you more proficient and hitting the intended target.. I feel like I have had great skills for many years but I picked up stuff from a Appleseed even though I was just intending it for my kids to learn.. Worth the weekend or even the first day IMO
 
So mostly Sniper/SDM stuff? Does Appleseed teach any close quarters combat skills? The last couple times I shot at people, they were pretty close. Granted most of the time they were far away, but that's why we had crew served.
 
No as stated it is about rifle training.. no close quarters combat training and no sniper training.. that goes far beyond rifle training..
 
I think there may be a semantics issue: it's marksmanship training, not tactics training. Though both activities may involve rifles, neither has exclusive rights to call itself rifle training.
 
Check out the link in my sig.. might answer a few questions.. trust me though it is worth going advanced or beginner.. good people, good times..
 
I guess you can call it what ever.. the tool used is a rifle and at a appleseed it teaches proper technique on how to use that tool effectively ..
 
I'm not trying to argue, but effectively against whom and where? I've never been, so I can't really be one to judge. But proper stance, uses of a sling, reloading are all tactic-based skills. How one uses a sling while in the prone as an SDM is not how one would use a sling clearing a building. Proper stance is a great thing when shooting qualification tables, but when shooting from a turret or from behind a vehicle tire, mud wall, or around a corner the "proper stance" is the one that gives you the most cover while you can lob rounds at the enemy.

Which brings me back to it just being marksmanship skills. That implies it's about putting a round in a target in the most accurate manner. So why are slings and reloads taught at all?

I get the impression from the Appleseed link in your sig, as well as discussion about it, that there are a number of pseudo-military aspects to Applseed. Offering "boot camps", using Army type qualifications, the focus on "real shooting skills" as opposed to pure-accuracy bench-rest shooting, etc. Why the so many commonalities with military-type training? I support that fully, but if it is going to have a combat-shooting tone, why only teach combat rifle skills of 50 years ago? Is it just for beginners who have never touched a rifle before, with the implication that if one wants to truly learn to fight with their rifle, more true modern combat shooting courses should be considered?

I love long range shooting, and if the my MP company had Designated Marksmen, I would have loved to be one. But for the average soldier, the 300m prone/kneeling qualification table is pretty much the most useless thing they can do with their rifle. It just doesn't have much bearing on anything one actually does when shooting at other people in real life. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why a course that seems to be trying to teach everyday people pseudo-combat skills, why the least* useful form of combat shooting is the one chosen.

*not useless, just least useful in modern combat for most shooters.
 
Last edited:
Ragnar -

I would say, effectively against targets, no particular target implied. I also don't want to be argumentative, and I'm probably the least qualified guy around to explain Appleseed, but: slings, stances, and reloading are, like putting rounds on targets, not about tactics in any exclusive sense. They are basic shooting skills. Familiarity with the weapon, facility with it, requires you to be able to load, fire, hit your target, reload and do it again. The sling usage taught enhances the hitting. The positions taught are basic: standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone. No mud walls or logs are to be found on the range - but they do discuss how to adapt the basic positions to those situations.

All of the skills taught are basic, perishable skills that many people today do not know. For myself, I personally cannot say that I shot better at the end of the day than I arrived shooting. But there was a young lady who'd never shot before who had clearly improved. My small son's groups shrank to a third their original size, though he still needs to work on consistency. My daughter improved as well, though she is still struggling with something I haven't been able to diagnose as yet.

For myself, my shooting speed with the bolt action improved a bit, but I honestly mostly went for my kids, so that they could experience some things that they never have before.

Appleseed isn't about the highest level of marksmanship possible, nor is it about the highest level of tactical combat skills possible. Both of those require quite a bit of further training, as I am certain that you well know. A one or two-day course can't possibly teach those things to the standards an MP or an infantryman must achieve. It is about basic riflery and marksmanship being taught to the Joe/Jane Average citizen: how to put rounds on target with his/her rifle (not an issued one), to do it well, and how to really run his/her rifle under very mild pressure, with time limits and standards of performance expected.

For you, and honestly for me, the pressure to be found at Appleseed is nothing like what the loud men wearing brown rounds gave us at basic, nor what we got in pre-deployment training, combat warmups for support and combat troops in Kuwait or Fort Bragg, and certainly nothing like what one feels in a guard tower that is taking hostile rounds from without the mud walls and Hescos, or on a patrol that is breaking an ambush.

Military combat training and discipline is not the focus here. Trying to understand it from a combat veteran's perspective is a bit of a stretch until you change your glasses - your focus. In spite of all my previous experience, I did learn things - but one of the IITs asked me, while she was looking at my first and second targets of the day, why I was there, because I clearly already knew how to put rounds on target and manipulate a weapon.

They have a target they call the "redcoat" target. They tell you about what it may have been like for farmers and tradesmen in the colonial militia to come out to protect their munitions from seizure by the British Army, and how someone in that position may have needed to hit a target at various ranges that day, cold and without much advance preparation, and then have you shoot at their "redcoat" target, cold, without zeroing, checking the weapon, or any advance preparation, putting each citizen in that proverbial citizen-militia member's buckled shoes and tri-cornered hat.

I cleaned it. I was the only one on the line to do so. So, when that instructor asked me why I was there, I could see her point. But I had a ready answer in the form of the 15 year old girl and 12 year old boy to my left and right. I was there primarily for my kids, so that they could experience some things that I have experienced, without having to get yelled at or shot at, and without a great deal of financial investment. And by the way, this was some of the least expensive, competent instruction I have ever heard of: all of the cadre are unpaid volunteers, and there are more exceptions to paying or means of paying reduced costs than there are requirements to pay the full tuition - which is cheap, anyway.

I will probably go back and try to get a Rifleman patch. It is, honestly, a small pride thing for me. I have nothing to prove to anyone, really. I have been in the Army, I have an Expert rifle pin, I have been downrange and been shot at, and were it just me, I might let it go. But when I go back, I will be taking my kids, with the hope that they will learn more and improve at the same time as I try to run the bolt on my .22 just a little bit faster and shoot just a little bit straighter, and deal with my sore back just a little bit better, and maybe come away with a patch that says I showed up and did my best to accomplish a goal - and, most importantly, maybe inspire my kids to some competence with arms as well.

I don't think Appleseed is about my kids, honestly, at least, I don't think it is for the program as a whole, or for the staff that ran the Appleseed I went to. But for me, it is. I think it is a program that is about accommodating the needs of each person who comes, and teaching them something about our American heritage in the process.

My son, whose groups shrank so much (and we don't say this out loud, but so much more than his sister's, too), told me this morning that his favorite parts were the discussions of the events of April 19th, 1775. As a kid growing up in Virginia, I got that kind of discussion frequently - pass a battlefield or two on the way to school, and that tends to happen. Around here, we talk about post-Civil War Indian wars, and don't usually even think about the U.S. revolution. Now, my kids are thinking about it, and talking about it, and carrying around patches with drummer boys on them.

I like that, too. I can't think of anything about this experience that I didn't like.
 
Last edited:
Does Appleseed teach bench shooting? No they do not.

Why not? Could it be that the whole point of Appleseed is to teach real shooting skills?

If not what is the point? Everyone already knows how to sit on a bench and shoot.

They come to Appleseed to learn something different.
I agree with your basic sentiment, all I'm trying to say is that to constantly harp on bench shooting is not productive. People generally don't respond well to ridicule.


I'm not trying to argue...
Are you sure? Appleseed is about basic marksmanship. Not clearing houses or squad tactics. Basic marksmanship. There are a lot of shooters who have never had any formal training, myself included up until two years ago. Appleseed is for them. Appleseed is for relatively new shooters to learn the right way the first time. Appleseed is not for tactics training, paramilitary types, or to prepare you for the SWAT team. However, if you take with you a proper rifle and a teachable atittude, you WILL learn something. I've been shooting all my life and I learned a lot at my first event.


I've never been, so I can't really be one to judge.
Yes, it is always those who have NOT been who are the loudest critics. You probably shouldn't go because you seem to lack the most important component, a teachable attitude. :rolleyes:
 
It sure seems like folks want to argue and make it much more difficult than it needs to be..it is about basic rifle marksmenship, and a interesting history lesson with a opprotunity to meet some real nice people..Don't go if you are expecting anything else!!!!!!! If you shoot well enough you get a rifleman patch.. just that simple..
 
I for one can't wait to attend an Appleseed. I hope to go later this year. I know next to nothing about how to manipulate a long arm, having spent all my time studying handguns, and I see Appleseed as a cheap and fun way to get some real training. :)
 
Dove -
90% of the people at my Appleseed had a 10/22, including my daughter. I know of at least 2 people who came with something else who have bought one since.

Just make sure you've got at least 2, 10 round mags, ammo yours functions with, and a sling, and you'll be set - as far as the rifle goes, anyway. :D

I'm going again next month.
 
Ragnar,

Appleseed is a course on the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. It is pretty much the same curriculum as Marine Corps basic rifle marksmanship, and is also extremely similar to the Army's SDM curriculum. It is designed to teach everyone the skills needed to shoot 4 MOA or better from field positions, which translates into the ability to hit man-sized targets out to 500 yards.

Others might describe it as a course on the "basics," but I think it is more accurate to call it a course on the "fundamentals." Some of the concepts taught are fairly advanced, and are things that most people who go through the military or law enforcement never hear, such as natural point of aim.

Appleseed does not teach close quarters combat techniques. It is geared more toward precision and distance shooting. Kind of like how the Marines start out teaching the course on fundamentals on the square range, and THEN teaches the more dynamic close quarters stuff... Appleseed gives you a strong basis in the fundamentals for wherever else you want to go, whether it would be with close quarters training like a carbine class, or long range precision training, or hunting, or competition, or whatever else you want to do with a rifle. Most of the same fundamentals apply no matter what you're doing... turning your body into the most stable platform possible, natural point of aim, sight alignment, sight picture, respiratory pause, focus on the front sight, trigger squeeze, follow through, target shifts, shooting under time pressure... that type of thing.

And it is not just a course for beginners. Experienced shooters benefit a lot from it too. Everyone can benefit from a good brushing-up on the fundamentals, and from the coaching of experienced instructors. The best shooters in the world will still have bad habits creep into their fundamentals if they don't have regular drilling and coaching. I've had experienced high power competitors tell me Appleseed has helped raise their scores. I've had 3-gun competitors say Appleseed helps them do better, especially on the smaller and longer-range targets. I've heard guys in the military say it made them more effective in combat.

And the fact is that it is not exactly easy to shoot an Expert score on the 25m Army Qual. Test that we use. We use an older version of the test from the 50s and 60s, and it is a little harder than the current one. So if you are a skilled shooter, come out and see how your skills stack up. VERY few shooters qualify on their first test of the weekend, no matter how skilled they are. Even if you qualify fairly easily, I'm sure you will learn at least a few things, and will improve your shooting.

And one of the greatest things about Appleseed is that it is a pro-liberty organization (though it isn't a political organization). We teach some Rev War history with every shoot, and we always emphasize the importance of staying active and involved in promoting liberty, so that we hopefully don't ever wind up in the same place our founding fathers did, with no effective peaceful way of fighting for our liberty.
 
I assume nothing, all I go by are the words on the screen. I can tell from your posts that you think you already know everything you need to so don't bother going to an Appleseed.
 
So if I do end up taking my bolt gun to the Appleseed course, how many mags should I have? That is, if I have only 5 round magazines.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top