Yeah, not exactly a truly fair match when you start comparing sighting systems and it isn't true military sights. Jim, we also did military single shot and buffalo rifles and I was 25 of 28 and 27 of 28 respectively. I used the original military sights on my trapdoor but a bunch of guys had target sights on their trapdoors. Not a sanctioned match, just how this group does things. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun.
Thinking about acquiring foreign milsurp rifle
- Thread starter Chief TC
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Plenty of nice K31s on gunchoker from $500~$850. Lots of 7.5x55 Swiss on ammoseek from $1.10~$1.50 per round. The K31 is known to be very accurate.
Has me thinking.....
On Gunsinternational too for that price. K31 definitely has my interest for something different than a mauser type action.
theotherwaldo
Member
I'm up to seven Swedish milsurps.
They're habit forming.
They're habit forming.
So I have never ventured into 2 of anything as of yet. Got lots of firearms but all different. I guess I think more about what I don't have that I could add to my collection rather than multiples. I'd like to know more about the addiction of a certain type of firearm.
theotherwaldo
Member
I wouldn't say that I have picked up all that many duplicates.
The Swedes had a lot of different models in their armories..
I usually sought out one uncut and one sporterized version of each model.
! even picked up a semiauto... .
The Swedes had a lot of different models in their armories..
I usually sought out one uncut and one sporterized version of each model.
! even picked up a semiauto... .
Mosin77
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A lot depends on what you’re mostly interested in… for shooting, more specifically, precise and accurate shooting, the m96 Swedes are sweet. So are the M39 Finnish Mosins, and the G11/K11/K31 Swiss rifles. Ammo will be easiest for the Finn (7.62x54r) and not too bad for the Swede and the Swiss. The Swiss have a cool straight pull action, the Swedes epitomize old school bolt action, and the Finns saw combat in extreme conditions in WWII, winning the prize for historical interest.
In terms of pulling the trigger, I like the Swedish experience a little more, a 6.5 is very pleasant. The 7.62x54r isn’t too bad, and the Swiss is not awful but it’s pushing the upper limits of what’s enjoyable for me (akin to .30-06.)
Or you can save a bit of coin and pick up a 91/30 Mosin, which will be pretty accurate in its own right but may require some dialing in to get it there.
I don’t include the 8mm, 7mm, and 7.65mm Mausers here not because they aren’t beautiful old guns, but because the sights tend to be of the barleycorn variety and really not great by our standards. If you’re wanting a piece of history it’s hard to go wrong with an 8mm Mauser however, and they can be found at any place on the old gun price spectrum.
The Enfields are also great fun to shoot but are a bit more finicky than a Mauser and ammo is harder to find. They’re also harder to find in bolt-matching condition, and these should really be matching for safety/long term rifle longevity, according to those who know these rifles well.
Carcanos, Mannlicher straight pulls, and Dutch Mannlichers are all fun, too, but are dependent on the right type of clip to shoot it, and ammo is not always easy to find. These become handloading propositions pretty quickly. I’d include Japanese Arisakas in that category too. Lots of history, and actually quite fun to shoot in 6.5mm (7.7 is a lot more powerful and can be on the upper edge of pleasant -they’re available in both chamberings) but ammo is usually expensive and hard to find.
In terms of pulling the trigger, I like the Swedish experience a little more, a 6.5 is very pleasant. The 7.62x54r isn’t too bad, and the Swiss is not awful but it’s pushing the upper limits of what’s enjoyable for me (akin to .30-06.)
Or you can save a bit of coin and pick up a 91/30 Mosin, which will be pretty accurate in its own right but may require some dialing in to get it there.
I don’t include the 8mm, 7mm, and 7.65mm Mausers here not because they aren’t beautiful old guns, but because the sights tend to be of the barleycorn variety and really not great by our standards. If you’re wanting a piece of history it’s hard to go wrong with an 8mm Mauser however, and they can be found at any place on the old gun price spectrum.
The Enfields are also great fun to shoot but are a bit more finicky than a Mauser and ammo is harder to find. They’re also harder to find in bolt-matching condition, and these should really be matching for safety/long term rifle longevity, according to those who know these rifles well.
Carcanos, Mannlicher straight pulls, and Dutch Mannlichers are all fun, too, but are dependent on the right type of clip to shoot it, and ammo is not always easy to find. These become handloading propositions pretty quickly. I’d include Japanese Arisakas in that category too. Lots of history, and actually quite fun to shoot in 6.5mm (7.7 is a lot more powerful and can be on the upper edge of pleasant -they’re available in both chamberings) but ammo is usually expensive and hard to find.
CapnMac
Member
On 14 May 48, the extremely brand-new, nearly broke, IDF was very "gun poor." In the months leading up to May, there had been a lot of scrambling to try and get as many rifles as they were about to have troops to carry them.
By late 47, there were rather a lot of 8mm K98ks about, most of which were no longer needed to bulwark rebuilding military forces. Israel is said to have bought K98k direct from the Czech, and from Hungary, even some alleged to be out of French stores, some of which may have been war-capture "reparations."
This is complicated as many of the "Arab" nations had armed up from similar sources (Rather famously, the Syrians had bought a bunch of PzKfw IV tanks to form their Armored Corps--which then faced off against Israeli Shermans.)
CapnMac
Member
I clean forgot to mention a fascinating military niche: Czech rifles. BRNO made some exquisite rifles, both bolt action and self-loading. They ar enot exactly common, but can be real gems.
Well decided to start with a Swedish Mauser. Found one that I thought was a good deal for what it was. Commercial ammo and bullets readily available and have the powders and primers to reload. This is a 1900 oberndorf version with the civilian target sights. All numbers matching. And these seem to command a price a lot less than American milsurps these days. I see lots of quality 1917s and 1903s going for 1500-2500. This rifle was 750. I’ll look at the K31 and M28/30 in the future. Thanks for all the input everyone.
Since this is a 123 yr old rifle but made with "high quality Swedish steel", beside a close inspection and function check, any advice on these rifles in terms of safety? I have purchased other 100+ yr old rifles and I tear them down and clean them and inspect and function check them and then test fire a few factory rounds and look at everything again to make sure they function as designed. Anything specific about these rifles I should know about? Thanks in advance.
theotherwaldo
Member
Inspect it carefully and don't hotrod it.
That's all.
That's all.
maxxhavoc
Member
If you reload, you will get a HUGE range of values for loading this cartridge. Some loading manuals are about 40% lower than others. Prepare to do some research. I can help if you need, but I will have to dig through notes.
Very rewarding though. These are pictures from a therapy session laying down at Talladega Marksmanship Park.
My best group at 300 yards was with it:
At 600 yards, this was the best group from the day - about 2.5MOA at 600 yards with Milspec Irons left me with a happy feeling for the day. That bag was like cheating though....
That was with 140gr Barnes Match Burners.
Very rewarding though. These are pictures from a therapy session laying down at Talladega Marksmanship Park.
My best group at 300 yards was with it:
At 600 yards, this was the best group from the day - about 2.5MOA at 600 yards with Milspec Irons left me with a happy feeling for the day. That bag was like cheating though....
That was with 140gr Barnes Match Burners.
Mosin77
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Safety and the M96:
1. these are the older “small ring” design Mausers so they don’t handle escaping gasses from a case head as well as a ‘98 model. Therefore wear eye protection just in case, and don’t press your luck with visibly damaged or corroded brass. Good advice for all rifles honestly.
2. The M96, again, being a “small ring” design, is plenty strong for its intended original application but its not the platform to try hot handloads or the latest Norma moose hunting cartridge. (6.5x55 Swede is one of the few cartridges, like .45-70, where there are old rifles and very new rifles, and folks buying the new rifles who want new power levels.) The 6.5 Swede is no slouch and there’s no need to seek screaming velocities. Stick to original loadings or modern Prvi Partizan ammo and you’ll be fine.
1. these are the older “small ring” design Mausers so they don’t handle escaping gasses from a case head as well as a ‘98 model. Therefore wear eye protection just in case, and don’t press your luck with visibly damaged or corroded brass. Good advice for all rifles honestly.
2. The M96, again, being a “small ring” design, is plenty strong for its intended original application but its not the platform to try hot handloads or the latest Norma moose hunting cartridge. (6.5x55 Swede is one of the few cartridges, like .45-70, where there are old rifles and very new rifles, and folks buying the new rifles who want new power levels.) The 6.5 Swede is no slouch and there’s no need to seek screaming velocities. Stick to original loadings or modern Prvi Partizan ammo and you’ll be fine.
Wow - I am officially impressed. 2.5 MOA at 600 with the standard sight??? Actually a little hard to believe but I do! I feel like an expert when I can shoot 4 MOA at 300 yds with standard mil sights on my 1917 or 1903A3,
Well done, sir. I'll PM you if I need help on load development. I'll start by reloading with PPU brass and 140 Hornady HPBTs and work up as normal. I like the challenge of getting these old guys dialed in. Took me quite a few tries to get the M1917 dialed in at distance. Would make loads that all were performing great at 100 (sub 2 moa) then fall apart at 300 or further. It wanted 180gr BTs.
Thanks - that is the plan. Got PPU ammo to get it going and then will reload to stay under max pressures. My goal is accuracy with designed loads for the rifle, nothing else.
maxxhavoc
Member
I will say 200 rounds went through the gun that day, and I only posted 2 groups....the 156gr rounds I shot did not do as well.
Ugly Sauce
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And priced out-of-sight!!!!!
Ugly Sauce
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My first mil-surp love was the SMLE/LEE Enfield. Even as a kid, I'd see one in a movie, and be like, "I'm going to have one of those someday">
Ugly Sauce
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Yes, the VZ24 and the Persian Mausers are very nice rifles.
Ugly Sauce
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I'm glad I collected all my mil-surps back in the day when they were affordable. Not so much now. For you money-baggers, still "affordable", but I never paid over $110.00 for any of mine. As mentioned the SMLE is my first love, and I have half a dozen or so. The Swede is a true gem, I had one but foolishly traded it for a Persian Mauser. The Persian is a nice piece of work, but kind of long and heavy for anything except range-shooting. I like to take my rifles for walks in the field/wilderness. Just don't find myself ever grabbing the Persian. My original intent was to scope it, and make a sniper out of it, even though an actual one probably never existed. Then I just did not have the heart to drill the receiver for a scope, and never will.
The rest are all great rifles, I have a good shooting VZ24 I wouldn't give up, even though it looks beat. And a never issued Yugo, that I issued to myself, and shot probably 1400 rounds of the Turk ammo through, with no problems. I'd love to have a good Arisaka/7.7 or 6.5, but not affordable to me. I like the 91/30 Ruska, and have a few, bought when they were $80.00 for good examples. The last one I bought was $120.00, and when they went higher I stopped. The Ruska can be a very accurate rifle.
I have an Ishapur I got for $80, that looked like a wreck. Laid on a gun-show table through all three days of the show. I bought it just out of mercy, but did notice it had a butter smooth action. After I took about 1/4" off the surface of the stock, eliminated all the dents and dings, got the black choo-choo train paint off the metal parts, (had beautiful parkerization underneath) it now will stand next to any other rifle, or equal to any other rifle as far as finish, accuracy, Just plain looks, and smoothness of action. It's a gem. I even had the rack numbers re-produced on the stock.
So, glad you chose the Swede, but can't really go wrong with any of the others, as long as you find a decent example.
The rest are all great rifles, I have a good shooting VZ24 I wouldn't give up, even though it looks beat. And a never issued Yugo, that I issued to myself, and shot probably 1400 rounds of the Turk ammo through, with no problems. I'd love to have a good Arisaka/7.7 or 6.5, but not affordable to me. I like the 91/30 Ruska, and have a few, bought when they were $80.00 for good examples. The last one I bought was $120.00, and when they went higher I stopped. The Ruska can be a very accurate rifle.
I have an Ishapur I got for $80, that looked like a wreck. Laid on a gun-show table through all three days of the show. I bought it just out of mercy, but did notice it had a butter smooth action. After I took about 1/4" off the surface of the stock, eliminated all the dents and dings, got the black choo-choo train paint off the metal parts, (had beautiful parkerization underneath) it now will stand next to any other rifle, or equal to any other rifle as far as finish, accuracy, Just plain looks, and smoothness of action. It's a gem. I even had the rack numbers re-produced on the stock.
So, glad you chose the Swede, but can't really go wrong with any of the others, as long as you find a decent example.