This place doesn't sound like The High Road anymore...

[tetchaje1]

With all of the rabid rantings and foaming at the mouth it sure sounds like the extremists that we are often labelled as around here. I'm not happy with a lot of the things that I see around me, but if you degenerate into name calling, hyperventilating, and throw logic and reason out the window we are no better than the rabid anti-gunners that we are all struggling against around here.

I've gotten so tired of the "King Jorge" rhetoric that I find myself coming here less and less. I'm tired of the anti-Iraq rants. It is immaterial whether or not we should have gone in there in the first place. We are there now, so lets finish the job right and get the heck out. (Though I find myself wondering why it isn't OK to depose a tyrant who committed ethnic cleansing now when it was OK in Bosnia and Germany in the past -- they never did anything to us either.)

If this continues, I'll not come here anymore, and I am sure that there are other members who feel the same way I do. I opened up a couple of threads today that I thought could have some good discussion going on, instead I saw the same usernames that are in every single thread ranting and raving about "ChimpCo" and "King Jorge" and "Shrub" and such and, frankly, I am disgusted with it all.

This has all gotten out of hand. I hope that people will read this and take it as a plea and a hope that we can once again talk to each other like civilized adults, regardless of our differences of opinion. In the past, this forum has been a gold mine of information and good discussion and debate about pressing topics, and I would come here every single day to get up to speed about what is going. Let's not feed the trolls anymore, please.

 

[Richard.Howe]

As long as the debate stays civil, then it is our perogative (obligation?) to have heated debate regarding the issues in which we believe so deeply.

I am a religious, social, and economic conservative -- I am married, shoot guns, go to church three times a week, hunt, work hard at my little white-collar job, respect my parents and elders, love my kids, etc. -- and I still find myself shaking my head sometimes at "my" administration.

If we did not get emotional about the way our country is headed, we would not be human or free-thinking. It's hard not to get overly emotional sometimes -- and your point is well-taken.

Rich

 

[WT]

Okay, I think I got the message ........

I should dare not criticize the President or our senior government officials.

Got it!

 

[JohnBT]

"instead I saw the same usernames that are in every single thread ranting and raving about "ChimpCo" and "King Jorge" and "Shrub" and such and, frankly, I am disgusted with it all."

I agree. Pure silliness; might be funny once...if they'd thought it up themselves, but they didn't.

You could try skipping over General and L&P just to avoid the agenda-plagued folks and their rants.

John

 

[JohnBT]

"I should dare not criticize the President or our senior government officials.

Got it!"

Hey, at least you capitalized President. A little class goes a long way.

JT

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I can see that this will likely become a perfect example of what he has an issue with, grown people should be able to debate without all the rhetoric and name calling. It's not an issue of disagreeing, just in how one does it.

I find that I seldom look at anything here that is not directly firearms related since I figure it's going to be too charged for me to enjoy. I can watch talk shows for that.

I think he has a good point myself.

 

[Waitone]

Criticism and ridicule and not synonymous.

Criticism is valid.

Ridicule is unacceptable.

 

[tetchaje1]

Okay, I think I got the message ........

I should dare not criticize the President or our senior government officials.

Got it!

It has nothing to do with not being allowed to disagree with the President of the United States of America. It has to do with civility, respect, and maturity.

Personally, I think that President Bush's immigration policies are treasonous, but that doesn't mean that I am going to be so consumed with hate that I am going to lose my self-control and rant like a little 3 year old because of it.

Let's look at the problems objectively, hammer out the details of how to combat them, and work together to overcome them together.

As long as the debate stays civil, then it is our perogative (obligation?) to have heated debate regarding the issues in which we believe so deeply.

Yes, but it hasn't been anywhere near civil lately. Previously, people would be empassioned (and rightfully so) about the issues at hand, and we would have well thought out debate and discussion. I believe that debate and disagreement is a good thing provided that people are civil and rational, and use well researched points to make their case. By donig so, we all become stronger and more informed.

Let's just cut out the name calling and tantruming.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Okay, I think I got the message ........

I should dare not criticize the President or our senior government officials.

Got it!

It is not that you shouldn't criticize the current administration, but due so with legitimate arguments (and there are plenty of those). Name-calling went out in the third grade.

Believe it or not, it IS possible to have a heated discusion(sp) on the internet without resorting to infantile sillyness.

 

[tetchaje1]

I can see that this will likely become a perfect example of what he has an issue with, grown people should be able to debate without all the rhetoric and name calling. It's not an issue of disagreeing, just in how one does it.

Exactly. I think you said it better than I could have.

 

[Gunpacker]

Why do I find myself thinking that the most vociferous of the Bush haters would excuse everything illegal and unconstitutional that the Clinton TWINS did while in the White House.
Republicans generally rallied behind foreign policy of Clinton. Now everything that Bush does is wrong, no matter what. Especially foreign or domestic policy.
Today's pols are setting precedent for an impotent presidency, with the United States being put in a dangerous world position because of it.

 

[Werewolf]

I opened up a couple of threads today that I thought could have some good discussion going on, instead I saw the same usernames that are in every single thread ranting and raving about "ChimpCo" and "King Jorge" and "Shrub" and such and, frankly, I am disgusted with it all.

Sex, religion and politics - three things my father taught me never to discuss with friends. Why? Because they are all polarizing issues charged with passion and emotion.

You know what? My father was right. When discussing politics sometimes things get out of hand even among the best of friends because politics is an emotional issue. It shouldn't be but it is. That's not gonna change - ever.

Soooooo... Even though at the High Road we mostly keep it civil sometimes we don't. DEAL WITH IT! Or as the OP threatened - (and this is the nice thing about the internet) LEAVE! No one's holding a gun to anyone's head here and forcing them to participate.

 

[Igloodude]

Seconded. I'd also prefer not to see mocking terms like 'chicken little' or 'fascist idiot sheep'.

 

[WT]

For some, politics is a very emotional issue. If they resort to language that does not meet 'my standards', well, I can deal with that.

Are the People to be silenced because of their particular choice of words? I hope not.

On the flip side, the People should not be forced to hear the opinions of another. I can chose to walk away and not listen.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Why do I find myself thinking that the most vociferous of the Bush haters would excuse everything illegal and unconstitutional that the Clinton TWINS did while in the White House.

Because you're getting caught in the "us" versus "them" mindset, just like you're supposed to.

Some of us hated what Clinton did and got away with. I was amazed by the lengths Democrats would go to in order to minimize the wrongs that were coming to light under Clinton. I thought that I had found a refuge in TFL -- a place where rational people saw through the hype.

Then Bush got in office, and it got worse. Except this time, it was the Republicans who were going out of their way to minimize the damage.

It turns out it's not about "freedom," or "smaller government," or "principles," or anything else. It's about rooting for your team and boo-hissing the opponent. It doesn't matter how bad things get, so long as it's our guy making it that way. Hooray for us!

Guys, tyrrany is tyrrany. Lost freedoms are gone no matter who took them away. The dollars spent on larger government are a debt we're all gonna have to face, and it's not any better that it happened under Bush's watch.

It's disgusting. Look around. Is this the country you want? Do you like the way we're headed? If not, then why work so hard to defend the guy most responsible, even if you do believe it'd be worse if the other guy had won?

Here's a hint: we're losing this country, and everything it's stood for since its inception. The fact that "at least Gore or Kerry would have made it worse" (if you call it a fact -- republican legislatures seem to at least fight Democrat executives occasionally) doesn't do anything to mitigate the damage that's been done under your guy.

 

[DigitalWarrior]

Please Understand the passion

I believe, and I think many others do as well, that when our country commits despicable acts in my name it is a very emotional event. The following was all done in my name. It infuriates me because I believe that the US is a good place filled with good people. We are not acting like the good guys.

Albert "Congress said it was OK" Gonzales said that it was permitted for the administration to order the NSA to eavesdrop on conversations where the other end of the party was in another country and a suspected terrorist. Who decided if it was a suspected terrorist? A shift supervisor. What stops the president from monitoring all communications? His discretion.

The Executive Branch lobbied to reserve the power of torture.

The CIA has secret prisons

We have hidden prisoners from the Red Cross.

We are monitoring books such as Mao's little red book, and following up on them with visits from the FBI.

 

[Iain]

Wonder how many 'Democrats' have been put off joining or posting too?

 

[Old Dog]

I'm totally in tetchaje1's camp on this one. I've gently noted to several posters that the use of pejorative nicknames ("King George," "Jorge," "Chimpster," "Dubya," "King Jorge," "Shrub" et al) do not, and never will, further intellectual discourse.

For this effort, I've been rewarded with nicknames ("idiot fascist," "apologist," and more).

Waitone has is totally correct. Criticism and ridicule are NOT synonymous.

Are the People to be silenced because of their particular choice of words?

It has nothing to do with "silencing" anyone. It has everything to do with fostering a climate of intelligent debate and mutual respect.

For me, when I see someone calling someone else a name -- it doesn't help me understand the name-caller's argument or position any better -- rather, it detracts from any respect I might have had for that individual. You use one of these silly little nicknames, it tells me more about you than the person you're calling the name.

Too many on this forum mistake the use of sarcasm, clever one-liners and and cute little buzzwords as replacement for actually using intellect, research and reasoning.

 

[pax]

http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

Go read it.

Folks, if you've been called a name, please, don't respond in kind. Simply hit the "report this post" button in the bottom left hand corner of the post (it looks like an exclamation mark inside a red triangle) and let it go at that. The moderators can't be everywhere, all the time -- and sometimes get more weary slogging through these repetitive threads than you can possibly imagine. When you report name-calling posts, it's a help. Reported posts help us know which threads to watch.

pax

 

[rick_reno]

Because you're getting caught in the "us" versus "them" mindset, just like you're supposed to.

Some of us hated what Clinton did and got away with. I was amazed by the lengths Democrats would go to in order to minimize the wrongs that were coming to light under Clinton. I thought that I had found a refuge in TFL -- a place where rational people saw through the hype.

Then Bush got in office, and it got worse. Except this time, it was the Republicans who were going out of their way to minimize the damage.

It turns out it's not about "freedom," or "smaller government," or "principles," or anything else. It's about rooting for your team and boo-hissing the opponent. It doesn't matter how bad things get, so long as it's our guy making it that way. Hooray for us!

Guys, tyrrany is tyrrany. Lost freedoms are gone no matter who took them away. The dollars spent on larger government are a debt we're all gonna have to face, and it's not any better that it happened under Bush's watch.

It's disgusting. Look around. Is this the country you want? Do you like the way we're headed? If not, then why work so hard to defend the guy most responsible, even if you do believe it'd be worse if the other guy had won?

Here's a hint: we're losing this country, and everything it's stood for since its inception. The fact that "at least Gore or Kerry would have made it worse" (if you call it a fact -- republican legislatures seem to at least fight Democrat executives occasionally) doesn't do anything to mitigate the damage that's been done under your guy.

Derek - excellent post, the best thing I've read here in a LONG time.

 

[tetchaje1]

I see my point has fallen on several deaf ears.

I was always taught that it is what you do when you think you are alone, when you think you are anonymous, that really defines who you are as a person.

Sure, I can "get over it" and I can learn to "DEAL WITH IT" or I can chose to "walk away and not listen" (which is what I have been doing more and more of lately), but this used to be a forum where I could come and enjoy healthy debate and all sides would remain mature and civil.

People who are justifying there personal actions, and using the cop-out of "politics are a charged subject, that's just the way they are" are rationalizing their lack of self control and common respect for other people, IMO. This is a political forum. By nature, there will be disagreements and charged discussions. It is the way that we, as adults (at least I assume that we are all adults), speak to each other and argue our points that really matters.

 

[Khornet]

Concur with the original post

I only recently stopped in here after maybe a year of absence because of that crap.

For my money, when a poster begins to spout cant phrases, e.g. 'Bush Lied', I no longer need to take him seriously, because it's no longer debate. And I don't mean that those of my persuasion don't have similar cant phrases of their own; just that those phrases are not debate, and the user is not a serious thinker.

 

[dasmi]

Because you're getting caught in the "us" versus "them" mindset, just like you're supposed to.

Some of us hated what Clinton did and got away with. I was amazed by the lengths Democrats would go to in order to minimize the wrongs that were coming to light under Clinton. I thought that I had found a refuge in TFL -- a place where rational people saw through the hype.

Then Bush got in office, and it got worse. Except this time, it was the Republicans who were going out of their way to minimize the damage.

It turns out it's not about "freedom," or "smaller government," or "principles," or anything else. It's about rooting for your team and boo-hissing the opponent. It doesn't matter how bad things get, so long as it's our guy making it that way. Hooray for us!

Guys, tyrrany is tyrrany. Lost freedoms are gone no matter who took them away. The dollars spent on larger government are a debt we're all gonna have to face, and it's not any better that it happened under Bush's watch.

It's disgusting. Look around. Is this the country you want? Do you like the way we're headed? If not, then why work so hard to defend the guy most responsible, even if you do believe it'd be worse if the other guy had won?

Here's a hint: we're losing this country, and everything it's stood for since its inception. The fact that "at least Gore or Kerry would have made it worse" (if you call it a fact -- republican legislatures seem to at least fight Democrat executives occasionally) doesn't do anything to mitigate the damage that's been done under your guy.

Well said.

 

[WT]

I claim to be no paragon of intellect and reasoning. However, in political discussions, if the People resort to language that they feel comfortable with, I will do my best to listen to what they say in order to really understand 'their message.'

A perfect command of the English language and obeyance of the 'Rules of Civility' expressed by young George Washington should not be required to participate in THR.

Okay, I flapped my jaw enough on this subject.

 

[P95Carry]

Indeed Derek - nicely put. Thank you.