Thoughts on Multiple Assailants, Hit Rate & Capacity

[X-Rap]

All this number crunching tells me to
Increase my close range shooting abilities while on the move
Pay better attention
Work on better carry methods that will allow me to maximize ammo capacity more of the time
When ever possible have another armed person along so we become a little less desirable targets

I believe that criminal trends are indeed changing both in the violence and number of assailants so to me it important to transition along with them.

 

[coalman]

I can't help but think that the 30% average hit ratio for LEO's is due to Glock triggers.

No. It's due to movement... by all parties. That plus chaos.

 

[Kleanbore]

^^^^
Yep! Add in stress and speed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I've always figured that it's best to hit the target(s) and when you run out of ammo, you run out of ammo.

 

[JohnKSa]

I've always figured that it's best to hit the target(s) and when you run out of ammo, you run out of ammo.

Sure. And the numbers give you a rough idea if you'll run out of ammo before you hit all the targets.

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
I understand numbers. and then you die

 

[Skribs]

I've always figured that it's best to hit the target(s) and when you run out of ammo, you run out of ammo.

Good strategy during the encounter. But what about before? You get to choose how much ammo you will have on you IF you need it.

There's two parts to self defense. One is being prepared to defend yourself. That includes training, mindset, and equipment selection. The other is the actual encounter.

 

[Certaindeaf]

..You get to choose how much ammo you will have on you IF you need it.

There's two parts to self defense. One is being prepared to defend yourself. That includes training, mindset, and equipment selection. The other is the actual encounter.

You get to? What video game are you playing? What I said was true.

 

[heeler]

This has been an interesting read.
Fwiw here in Houston yesterday we had at least two robberies of individuals where the perps were in mutiple numbers which as Rexster noted is increasingly happening in Houston.
A guy and his g/f were parked near the airport watching jets come and go and were approached by two guys asking for directions and then robbed of their vehicle,money,and rings,and another incident a guy had parked his car with numerous passengers inside his vehicle and a group of six pushed him to the ground,pulled a gun and robbed him.
That's damn bold because there was always the possibility that one or more of the people inside the good guys car might have actually had a gun with them.
But then again that area of Houston called Mid Town is one of those increasingly gentrified areas Rexster spoke of in our city that is chock full of young successful metrosexuals who have probably been brain washed of the evils of guns.
Yea right,whatever.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Certaindeaf: I understand numbers. and then you die

that makes no sense. Did you leave something out?

 

[Skribs]

You get to? What video game are you playing? What I said was true.

I'm talking real life. You get to choose what you carry, and handguns using normal self defense cartridges can hold anywhere from 2 to 20+1 in flush magazines. You also get to choose how many extra magazines/speedloaders/spare bullets you carry. So yes, if you have 5 shots, it's not because "it's just what I had on me", it's because you chose to carry a 5-shot pistol. If you have 17 rounds of 9mm on tap and another 2 magazines for backup, you have those because you chose to bring them.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm talking real life. You get to choose what you carry, and handguns using normal self defense cartridges can hold anywhere from 2 to 20+1 in flush magazines. You also get to choose how many extra magazines/speedloaders/spare bullets you carry. So yes, if you have 5 shots, it's not because "it's just what I had on me", it's because you chose to carry a 5-shot pistol. If you have 17 rounds of 9mm on tap and another 2 magazines for backup, you have those because you chose to bring them.

This is true. One day, one time, once upon a time, you'll run out of ammo. and then you might die. That's pretty much the way it goes. Like I said before..

 

[Skribs]

I never said you'd run out. I was saying that the idea of "when you run out of ammo, you run out of ammo" is something that occurs during the fight. How much ammo you bring to the table is something you choose before the fight, and that's what I think we're trying to ask here: how much ammo to bring to the table?

 

[1911 guy]

I can't address the whole topic for two reasons. First, it would take a month of Sundays and secondly I'm on some drugs from the doc and a little fuzzy right now. Pain has always hurt me, so I'm on pain-killers.

I remain convinced, based on my experience and the experiences of others I've had the opportunity to speak with, that misses happen for two common reasons. As in everything else in life, there are a thousand variables, but these, I believe, are the main two:

First, no training in hitting a moving target. Kinda like spending all your time on a heavy bag then expecting to step into the ring with an accomplished bantam-weight boxer. He'll eat you up, even if you're twice his size. You've got to move and be able to hit him while he's moving.

The second is transitioning from one target/assailant to the next. People often begin moving the handgun out of alignment well before completing the shot.

The second issue can be dealt with on a square range with two target frames and a dedication to making a fast and seamless transition, the first requires FOF training.

As for the "How much ammo?" question, my answer is similar to the "How much gun do I need?" question. As much as you will actually carry and not leave at home because it's a hassle. That's different for everyone. For me, it a 1911 and a few reloads. For some, it's a micro-revolver and a prayer.

 

[JohnKSa]

First, no training in hitting a moving target. Kinda like spending all your time on a heavy bag then expecting to step into the ring with an accomplished bantam-weight boxer. He'll eat you up, even if you're twice his size. You've got to move and be able to hit him while he's moving.

The second is transitioning from one target/assailant to the next. People often begin moving the handgun out of alignment well before completing the shot.

I'd add a third, fourth and a fifth.

3. No practice trying to shoot while doing your level best to dodge the bullets being shot at you by the guy you're shooting at.

4. No practice shooting from behind cover or from awkward positions. See #3.

5. No practice shooting while injured or while using your free hand to grapple with someone.

There are probably others...

 

[Prosser]

John, thank you. You certainly have me rethinking my shooting, and my carry options. All of a sudden leaving those extra mags at home doesn't look like such a great idea...

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm glad it turned out to be thought-provoking that's really all I intended. Decisions about what to carry are going to vary widely for a lot of different reasons. The general idea was to provide some additional information that might be useful in that decision making process.

I have no illusions, nor intent that everyone who reads this changes to carrying a high-capacity pistol and several spare magazines. In fact, I'm not changing what I carry. But I do have a much better idea of what kind of capability my carry system provides me.

 

[Lawdawg45]

^^^^
Yep! Add in stress and speed.

Agree. My previous post referenced this, and it was the major contributing factor. The Parasympathetic response (fight or flight) when induced in practice by physical exertion or external stimulus (flash bang grenades) induced the same low hit rate, and even in testing 20 years ago they found by simply turning on the lights and siren, blood pressure elevated and the heart rate nearly doubled. The 8lb NYPD trigger may be an isolated factor, but most departments use a 4 or 5 lb trigger.

LD

 

[Prosser]

The other part of the equation is given the evidence presented, identifying a threat at distance prior to engagement is vital.

In my situation I'll have to plan on reloading, and getting the gun out first, and maybe having to shoot at a longer distance then I would like maybe vital to my survival. Keeping the threat at a distance where they can't engage physically would be my first desire.

To complete this puzzle we really need to know how many shots are fired by the bad guys, and how accurate they are. Not to mention what percentage of guns by bad guys are actually used, vs. brandished.

With multiple bad guys I do wonder if something like wide area pepper or bear spray might not be a great defensive tool to create distance?

http://1life1bearspray.com/

Range is 10 yards. It's hotter then personal pepper spray, by almost double,
so not much is going to effect a human.

It would add to the complication factor. Monday night I was in a situation
walking out of a gym in a not very good murder capitol of the U.S. at one year or another, with some guys that weren't real happy about a game ending call by my partner(guilt by association). The one advantage to pepper spray is I can have it in my hand, ready to go, and it's hard to see.
I admit the little key chain ones aren't my first choice, but the stuff does work at point blank range.

I have to carry a bag with me anyway, to carry all my stuff into the gym, since anything in a convertible is an invitation to a sliced top. No reason next week that can't include a large can of bear spray, and a better flashlight. I can't carry a gun anyway.

Can't figure out how one would run up and down a basketball court in a tight shirt and shorts carrying a pistol, without the carry setup showing through.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I think its important to remember that very very few gunfights get fought to a conclusion. Most end because participants realize they could get killed by the next bullet and start disengaging. I don't think I've ever read an account of anyone being found with a locked back slide.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I think the number one reason people shoot so poorly in these encounters is they have trained to shoot using sights and then they don't.

 

[jimbo555]

I agree John,and I think it's very important to have a handgun that naturally points for you and if it has good capacity that's a bonus!







Br

 

[Prosser]

I just got a link to Doubletaps' new .45 equalizer:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=658
"45ACP+P 255gr. Equalizer™ 20rds. $33.75 $29.95
45ACP+P 255gr. Equalizer™ 20rds.
Click to enlarge

This is a powerful load for personal defense that delivers two shot on target with every pull of the trigger. Each shot is a doubletap on target! The two shots hit within an inch of each other at 7yds and within 2" of each other at 25yds! You get two distinct wound channels with each shot.
Caliber : .45ACP+P

Bullet : 255gr. Equalizer™ including a 185gr. JHP followed by a 70gr. HARDCAST bullet with a .450" meplat!
(Wound channel diameter of 0.939" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .450", and a striking velocity of 835 fps.)
Ballistics : 835fps/ 395 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
"
It would seem to me that such ammunitions' good point is you have just doubled your magazine capacity. BULLET COUNT IS DOUBLED. I also like the
increase from 230 grains to 255 grains for .45 ACP.

The downside is you are now shooting a slow 185 grain JHP which won't penetrate much, and a .380 or less wadcutter, but with a .450" meplat.
Plenty of damage but again penetration is a problem.

Thoughts?

 

[Skribs]

That 70-gr bullet is going to be heavier than a pellet of 00 by about 40%, and I think the slower JHP will have less expansion as opposed to less penetration. But I do agree, the wide size of that hardcast will probably impact penetration. Don't think I'd go with this over a conventional bullet. I think if you're going to want multiple projectiles for a carry weapon, the only real options are Judge or Governor.

 

[Prosser]

The good news would be if the HP doesn't expand, you are hitting your target twice, at the same time, with 25 grains more then most .45 ACP loads, and creating two big wound channels. The only question is how deep they are going to go. I can't help but think the cumulative impact would make an impression on the target.