Funderb
Member
I think it involves a hand grenade. I mean, as stated, they intend to kill you, and there is nothing you can do about it. Banzai anyone?
The case for LESS ammo capacity (revolver) in a handgun.
- Thread starter Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Dr. Tad,
I do so enjoy reading your posts.
I take it from this scenario, that 3 or 4 guys have got the jump on you and you only have time to pull your gun and fire a few unaimed shots before they start beating the snot out of ya?
As I'm not a bionic ninja with spider sense and a magic gun that always hits (unlike others on this forum), I'd have to take them down 'Three Stooges' style -
Basically fall to the ground in a ball with my left arm protecting my head and spinning round with my feet firing all 15+ rounds in a panicky circle of destruction whilst screaming like a girl.
Who knows, I might even survive.
I do so enjoy reading your posts.
I take it from this scenario, that 3 or 4 guys have got the jump on you and you only have time to pull your gun and fire a few unaimed shots before they start beating the snot out of ya?As I'm not a bionic ninja with spider sense and a magic gun that always hits (unlike others on this forum), I'd have to take them down 'Three Stooges' style -
Basically fall to the ground in a ball with my left arm protecting my head and spinning round with my feet firing all 15+ rounds in a panicky circle of destruction whilst screaming like a girl.
Who knows, I might even survive.
Vern Humphrey
Member
As Jeff Cooper said, "There's such a thing as enough ammunition, and there's such a thing as not enough ammunition. There's no such thing as too much ammunition."
Or to put it another way, when the chips are down, fight to win, not to tie.
Or to put it another way, when the chips are down, fight to win, not to tie.
Just One Shot
Member
(UKJ Dr. Tad,
I do so enjoy reading your posts. I take it from this scenario, that 3 or 4 guys have got the jump on you and you only have time to pull your gun and fire a few unaimed shots before they start beating the snot out of ya?
As I'm not a bionic ninja with spider sense and a magic gun that always hits (unlike others on this forum), I'd have to take them down 'Three Stooges' style -
Basically fall to the ground in a ball with my left arm protecting my head and spinning round with my feet firing all 15+ rounds in a panicky circle of destruction whilst screaming like a girl.
Who knows, I might even survive. )
Thanks,
I laughed out loud when I read your post!
I do so enjoy reading your posts. I take it from this scenario, that 3 or 4 guys have got the jump on you and you only have time to pull your gun and fire a few unaimed shots before they start beating the snot out of ya?
As I'm not a bionic ninja with spider sense and a magic gun that always hits (unlike others on this forum), I'd have to take them down 'Three Stooges' style -
Basically fall to the ground in a ball with my left arm protecting my head and spinning round with my feet firing all 15+ rounds in a panicky circle of destruction whilst screaming like a girl.
Who knows, I might even survive. )
Thanks,
I laughed out loud when I read your post!
fastbolt
Member
I generally bypass these "What if?" hypothetical thread topics.
However, I thought I'd offer a comment this time ...
More often than not, it seems that a single attacker offering a victim the imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death has been more than 'enough' of a threat to tax the skills, abilities and mental/emotional/physical capabilities of someone defending themselves, either LE or non-LE.
I'd further offer that being the potential victim of a sudden, unexpected unlawful attack is something for which LE is generally offered some type of training and preparation for encountering, considering the inherent dangerous situations which come with the job. Much less so for the average non-LE person who is strictly going about their normal activities and not being actively sent to intervene in, or looking to find and intervene in, potentially dangerous situations every day.
Yes, 'multiple threat target' courses-of-fire are often included in the training & qualification courses-of-fire provided to many civilian LE and regular civilian folks during some training venues.
I suspect, however, that spending a lot of time involved in conjecture about the best methods to successfully defend against the concerted efforts of several attackers in a 'multiple attacker scenario', especially to the point of determining appropriate weapon capacity issues, borders on fantasy for most folks ...
However, I thought I'd offer a comment this time ...
More often than not, it seems that a single attacker offering a victim the imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death has been more than 'enough' of a threat to tax the skills, abilities and mental/emotional/physical capabilities of someone defending themselves, either LE or non-LE.
I'd further offer that being the potential victim of a sudden, unexpected unlawful attack is something for which LE is generally offered some type of training and preparation for encountering, considering the inherent dangerous situations which come with the job. Much less so for the average non-LE person who is strictly going about their normal activities and not being actively sent to intervene in, or looking to find and intervene in, potentially dangerous situations every day.
Yes, 'multiple threat target' courses-of-fire are often included in the training & qualification courses-of-fire provided to many civilian LE and regular civilian folks during some training venues.
I suspect, however, that spending a lot of time involved in conjecture about the best methods to successfully defend against the concerted efforts of several attackers in a 'multiple attacker scenario', especially to the point of determining appropriate weapon capacity issues, borders on fantasy for most folks ...
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Hee hee, good one.
I guess the theory has been quashed as more than a little hare-brained. Particularly in light of the idea that 99% of thugs are looking for the soft target and are gonna scatter like cockroaches when armed resistance shows itself to them. Personally, I like capacity, and I'm going keep carrying ma nines, and shooting as long as I can continue to shoot, if being attacked, before running like hell, and I can dump a 17 round mag lickety-split. But it was worth throwing it out there for discussion.
One *could* even posit the same theory for a SINGLE attacker - "use up your ammo before he gets to you, or he's gonna use the gun against you". (which is really a variation of the anti's argument "you won't use the gun at all, and the guy will use it against you). But this is far less likely than with a multiple-attacker scenario, given that most of use are gonna go for a Mozambique and likely put the single attacker out of commission in short order, and even if we can't, I sure as hell most likely can "out-wrestle" ONE guy to retain possession of the still-loaded handgun, given that I HAVE the all-important *initial* possession, and he's trying the grab it from me, from the end that makes a bo-bo when you get in its way.
That is also a most excellent point. You're screwed blued and tatooed regardless in that scenario, so may as well at least try to stack the odds a bit more in your favor for a decisive win, by having more ammo rather than less.
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My primary carry gun is a S&W 2nd-gen auto that includes a mag disconnect. If I fear my gun is going to be wrestled away from me I simply drop the mag and now the gun's a paperweight. Meanwhile while they're fumbling with my now disabled firearm I'm going at them with my knife.
However I don't let strangers get that close to me, especially if I sense they're a threat.
However I don't let strangers get that close to me, especially if I sense they're a threat.
Deaf Smith
Member
Dr. Winslow,
To limit one's weapon due to a specific scenario is very unadvisable. You may be attacked by multiple assailants with just contact weapons, or one or two with contact weapons and another with a gun, or no telling what combination.
So instead, one carries what they can reasonably conceal. If it’s a 5 shot snub, well I suggest two of them. Or a 8/9 shot simi-auto, or a 15 shot Glock, etc…
But I do not advise someone to carry a very limited capacity weapon based on one hypothetical incident.
To limit one's weapon due to a specific scenario is very unadvisable. You may be attacked by multiple assailants with just contact weapons, or one or two with contact weapons and another with a gun, or no telling what combination.
So instead, one carries what they can reasonably conceal. If it’s a 5 shot snub, well I suggest two of them. Or a 8/9 shot simi-auto, or a 15 shot Glock, etc…
But I do not advise someone to carry a very limited capacity weapon based on one hypothetical incident.
Hoxviii
Member
This isn't totally out there, but the continued attack might be.
There was a spat of situations like this in St. Louis this past summer. A large group of people (10-15) would descend on a seemingly easy target, all with blunt force instruments and knives. They wound up killing a couple people, putting others in a hospital.
After the first time somebody opened on them with true resistance, they scattered and that was the end of these mass attacks.
Making solid contact with the first attacker is probably the most important thing you can do, not so much as worrying about your too much or too little ammunition situation.
There was a spat of situations like this in St. Louis this past summer. A large group of people (10-15) would descend on a seemingly easy target, all with blunt force instruments and knives. They wound up killing a couple people, putting others in a hospital.
After the first time somebody opened on them with true resistance, they scattered and that was the end of these mass attacks.
Making solid contact with the first attacker is probably the most important thing you can do, not so much as worrying about your too much or too little ammunition situation.
Dan Crocker
Member
...whats the point? If they were suicidal enough to charge a guy with a gun and you are worried about them taking it and shooting, then what's stopping them from just beating you to death anyway after you run out of rounds?
This is a seriously flawed reason to carry a revolver. I'm a fan of "more bullets is a good thing." If somebody tries to grab your gun, pull the trigger, homey. Pull the trigger, and don't release it until you have positive control of the weapon again. After you have pulled the trigger, engage death grip and let go for nothing. When you pull the trigger while a baddie has his mitts on your gun, one of two things will happen. He's going to let go with a big ol' owie, or he's going to keep hold of the gun. Either case will probably result in a malfunction that will need to be cleared.
They are going to let go unless they are really highly motivated. If they are that highly motivated, they're probably using two hands, and have no defense against you landing repeated strikes to their head and neck with your weak hand.
I think it's safe to say that if some thug tries to pull a drawn gun out of your hand, he wants to kill you with it. No reason not to fight back with everything you have then.
They are going to let go unless they are really highly motivated. If they are that highly motivated, they're probably using two hands, and have no defense against you landing repeated strikes to their head and neck with your weak hand.
I think it's safe to say that if some thug tries to pull a drawn gun out of your hand, he wants to kill you with it. No reason not to fight back with everything you have then.
crebralfix
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The guy holding the gun, that's who! Hit them with the gun...it's a solid chunk of metal.
Sheesh...people seem to have the idea that only guns can be used for fighting.
Dan Crocker
Member
Okay, I'll give you an empty gun and 4-5 guys with clubs who are going to kill you. Good luck.
James T Thomas
Member
what if this and what if that...
"Doc:"
I'm tempted to reply XXF?
Your scenario should be moved to the THR threads of "then the bad guy will disarm you and use your gun on you!"
"The Case" might be rethought to "at contact distance" -the semiauto function of your pistol will be rendered into a jam from interference with the slide. The attackers swarming and being upon you.
Now the attackers must be versant in clearing the jam before shooting you with your own gun.
Hey Doc. With the steel revolver; you have a fine "contact" weapon, similar to a blackjack, in your hand.
Since your bullets did little to disuade the attack, a heavy hunk of steel slamed into their skulls will put the lights out quickly and surely.
It might be that you should have used the "wounding" time, not to shoot, but more effectively slap them up side the head with your "sap" -revolver in the first place.
Sorry, but I don't think your premise of a limited amount of shots available via a revolver versus the higher capacity auto has validity, except perhaps in some bizzare circumstance as you state.
"Doc:"
I'm tempted to reply XXF?
Your scenario should be moved to the THR threads of "then the bad guy will disarm you and use your gun on you!"
"The Case" might be rethought to "at contact distance" -the semiauto function of your pistol will be rendered into a jam from interference with the slide. The attackers swarming and being upon you.
Now the attackers must be versant in clearing the jam before shooting you with your own gun.
Hey Doc. With the steel revolver; you have a fine "contact" weapon, similar to a blackjack, in your hand.
Since your bullets did little to disuade the attack, a heavy hunk of steel slamed into their skulls will put the lights out quickly and surely.
It might be that you should have used the "wounding" time, not to shoot, but more effectively slap them up side the head with your "sap" -revolver in the first place.
Sorry, but I don't think your premise of a limited amount of shots available via a revolver versus the higher capacity auto has validity, except perhaps in some bizzare circumstance as you state.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
5 or 6 rounds should be plenty with at least 1 round left over if 4 bad guys attack you and you can shoot well.
Shot placement is the name of the game, not how many shots you can fire before you empty your gun.
Shot placement is the name of the game, not how many shots you can fire before you empty your gun.
mgregg85
Member
I'll do my absolute best to empty my magazine if they are still coming. If they get to me after all that then I'm probably dead anyways.
Even if I couldn't empty it, I'd rather be shot with my own gun than beat to death, at least that would be quick.
Even if I couldn't empty it, I'd rather be shot with my own gun than beat to death, at least that would be quick.
Dan Crocker
Member
And if you miss in this high-stress, multiple-assailant scenario? This isn't a case for less capacity, it's a simple argument for more. If there are 4 guys that don't back off when you pull your gun and start shooting, they are likely going to kill you even if you shoot your gun empty. Might as well keep pumping bullets into them as long as you can.
Revolver Ocelot
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generally (atleast from my own expierience) when there are more then 2 its usually one guy with some sort of saturday night special leading a group of 3 (who are there primarily as an in timidation tactic).
however if there where more guns involved I'll just hope my odds are better for carrying a second revolver.
however if there where more guns involved I'll just hope my odds are better for carrying a second revolver.
JohnBT
Member
"Suppose you're being attacked by say, 3 or 4 contact-weapon-armed thugs"
How do you know they only have contact weapons? Do you also know their nicknames, what they had for breakfast and what's stuffed in their waistbands?
Unless you can send me a crystal ball like yours, I'm not returning my new FNP-45 with the 15-round mags.
John
How do you know they only have contact weapons? Do you also know their nicknames, what they had for breakfast and what's stuffed in their waistbands?
Unless you can send me a crystal ball like yours, I'm not returning my new FNP-45 with the 15-round mags.
John
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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I think we pretty well debunked the hypothesis back on page 1.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Why?
Whatever you're carrying, the toads will probably run off with it.
Whatever you're carrying, the toads will probably run off with it.
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