Thoughts on OSS helix

[SigsNCigs]

Supposedly there's no need for an adjustable gas block with the flow through tech

 

[pdsmith505]

Everything I've read about OSS cans indicates that they are heavier and do not suppress as well.

 

[grampajack]

They are heavy, but I still wish I could afford one for every semi auto I own. There's no denying the technology is beyond cool.

 

[Elkins45]

Loud = uncool. If they are louder and heavier than a conventional can then I can't see a good reason to buy one.

 

[zimmer]

I've benefitted many times from the knowledge Ive found on this forum, so this finally seems to be a topic that I can contribute to with some level of first hand experience. To answer the original question: NO, we've found that you definitely don't need an adjustable gas block to run an OSS on your rifle. In fact, the Larue Tactical rifles we have with OSS mounted on them run best with the gas block on the "unsuppressed" setting.

As previous guys have mentioned, there is most definitely a weight difference between flush mount OSS and others. Its very noticeable when you have both an OSS and say the Omega or Sandman in hand, but the weight difference seems to make less of an impact once its mounted on a rifle - and thats the consistent feedback we get from the LE evals we've conducted. Like many other companies, it clearly took OSS a while to find their footing and get their R&D settled on their current product line...we know this from experience during the painful days of being a dealer 2-3 years ago. Their new models (Helix and Elite 556, etc) are very similar in size to other suppressors in that space and I can add some comparison pics below.
As far as suppression level, its very subjective with every suppressor/rifle combination. You can find a quieter can on your AR than the OSS if decibel reduction is number one above all, However we've found when suppressing rifles things like blowback, ease of use, maintenance, customer service, etc all get thrown into the mix - it just really depends on what the end user feels are their priorities. Mostly we find that evaluators agree that the "tone" is different between all the cans, but the difference in sound suppression isn't that great between them.

For a little context on how I've learned this: We run a small vet-owned business selling suppressors/optics to LE departments and select private customers (basically meaning that we don't do gun shows, we don't have a store front, etc). This is a side business for us, so the challenge is to be very focused and deliberate in what we can offer, and know who our sales targets are. We don't do tactical training - that market is very saturated and well represented now - so instead we conduct live-fire evals as a way for customers to make up their own minds on what optics and suppressors (and sometimes rifles) fit their specific needs. For suppressors We rep OSS, SilencerCo, Dead Air, and sell just about every other make/brand...so its not like we think OSS is the answer for everyone. We have 18-20 rifles (DD and BCM mainly, but also HK, LMT, Larue Tactical, and others), each outfitted with suppressors and different optics for our evals - about 10 of these have OSS suppressors on them, and the balance have DAAs, SilencerCos, or Surefires. We are big fans of the Omega, and recently pair it with the DAA kymo quick detach instead of the direct thread mount. DAA suppressors will be on 4 of our guns later this month (we have one right now).
This gives our departments the ability to see first hand what works on similar platforms during live fires. We run all our rifles stock from the factory - except for adding some SSA triggers - so that we can demo how each suppressor works at baseline. Many guys add Adjustable gas blocks, suppressor optimized BCGs, etc to their guns to get them running like they want suppressed, but we feel that should all be factored into the decision process.

For example, we are working right now with an LE department who is purchasing suppressors for their entry teams and optics/suppressors for their sniper teams. We wouldn't necessarily recommend OSS for any Sniper rifle application, because those tend to be long barreled guns already that are used in single or limited engagements. There are a LOT of good options which are lighter for that type of rifle. The SBRs that the entry teams run with are another story. Size, Weight, Suppression, Blowback, Recoil, etc all get thrown into the equation here, and OSS does very well in this application with the departments we have worked with.

I apologize for the wordy response to a very simple direct question, but I thought it best to elaborate somewhat on how we came to hold these opinions. Clearly I'm not the only source of info on this topic or even OSS suppressors...we just have been in a position to see evals first hand from LE departments over the past year and its made an impression.

As I mentioned earlier, below are some pics (hopefully they show up):

Elite 556s mounted on BCMs (11.5" and 14.5")




ON RIFLE: OSS Elite 556 mounted on a DD MK18.
ABOVE: OSS Gen5 762 IFM7
BELOW: SilencerCo OMEGA with a flat 556 end cap instead of the 762 brake it ships with (I thought I'd show a 556 OSS vs the Omega as set up for 556. The brake the Omega ships with extends the length a couple inches or so)



OSS HX762 on an LMT
OSS IFM7 on an M1 Socom. This Socom is a good example of where I don't like the OSS really - too heavy and the thing feels like its 4 feet long. Im going to try an Omega or Sandman on it at some point.



PM or email me if you want any other details - hope this helps.

 

[lovethosesooners]

Reviving and old thread here with my experience.

My 1st suppressor was the original oss over the barrel-I learned after buying 2 other brand suppressors the major advantages I see in he oss.

2nd can was a Sig 762ti qd.....very quiet and light...didn’t know what mirage really looked like until I used it...never, ever have had ANY mirage with the oss.

3rd can was a silencer hybrid-bought it as it would fit well on both 338 and 458
Socom...same experience as with the Sig...mirage, major blowback on both cans...

Baffle technology works for sound suppression but they get smoking hot and have enough blow back to make hands look like I’ve torn down an engine after cleaning a semi auto fired 100 rounds through.

The oss simply does not have the blow back and mirage the baffle cans have-period.

I’ve just ordered the 2nd newer generation flush mount that will replace the 2 baffle cans on almost all of the rifles they’re currently used on for these reasons-it’s THAT superior unless you don’t mind blow back and mirage.

I could see the baffle can be great for a hunting rig with low volume firing, as they are lighter (though the new ones, not really anymore...my original is heavy yet still find it to be light years better than a baffle can).

There’s a video on YouTube showing how clean a case is from rifle fired with a baffle can vs oss-very very revealing.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Baffle technology works for sound suppression

That's kind of the point with suppressors.

The OSS cans look cool, and being who I am, I certainly appreciate the mechanics and machine work involved, but OSS took a concept that's worthwhile to incorporate and went too far with it. They were so concerned with residual pressure and bolt speed that they sacrificed the most important aspect of a suppressor, which is suppression. Assuming durability is established, the second most important component is size & weight, which OSS has also missed the mark on.

There are ways to mitigate mirage ($40-$100) for wraps), gas systems can be adjusted, carbon cleans off, but there's nothing you can do to make a suppressor with mediocre SPL reduction work better. And that's why we don't see many OSS cans in real world use. They're spendy, of course, but no more than top shelf stuff from Surefire, TBAC and others.

(baffle designs) get smoking hot

That's what happens when you effectively trap & slow hot gasses.

 

[lovethosesooners]

Actually regards the supprrssion, at the shooters ear, they perform very well compared with the baffle suppressors.

Military channel did a video showing and explaining why the difference in that the lack of blowback actually makes it more quiet at the shooters ear as the baffle type with the high blowback pushes some of the sounds back instead of forward like the oss does.

The older ones have been heavier and more $, but the new ones are 1 piece, which made them less $ to manufacture and as such, the prices came way down....they also reduced the weight to be comparable with baffle cans.

I’ve had numerous comments at the range about how quiet the oss is (and have also had same comments about the Sig).

I do have covers for the baffle cans, that after 5 rounds, especially in the summer here in TX, I remove to let the cab cool quicker than it does with cover holding it in-still get some mirage though and simply don’t need a cover for the oss.

IMO and based on my experience, these things are just so superior to the baffle cans.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Actually regards the supprrssion, at the shooters ear, they perform very well compared with the baffle suppressors.

Military channel did a video showing and explaining why the difference in that the lack of blowback actually makes it more quiet at the shooters ear as the baffle type with the high blowback pushes some of the sounds back instead of forward like the oss does.

Don't pay much attention to my threads, do ya?

Port noise is generally only an issue requiring special suppressor design with blowback guns. If you're getting lots of port noise or piston pop out of your gas operated rifle (OSS doesn't do handgun cans, so we'll leave locked breech recoil operated pistols out of this), then you need to go to an adjustable gas block and dial it down. On a bolt gun, backpressure is a non-issue.

Bravo to them for trying to be different and coming up with something really cool looking on the inside. Unfortunately, it gives up needed performance in order to offer a solution in search of a problem.

I’ve had numerous comments at the range about how quiet the oss is

Maybe from people who've never heard a suppressed shot before. The .30 cal offerings from OSS are louder than the old AAC SDN-6, and just as heavy.

The older ones have been heavier and more $, but the new ones are 1 piece, which made them less $ to manufacture and as such, the prices came way down....they also reduced the weight to be comparable with baffle cans.

15-20 oz is not light, $900-$1,200 is not cheap. And 136-139 dB is not quiet.

IMO and based on my experience, these things are just so superior to the baffle cans.

Based on no one else trying to do a can even remotely similar and OSS having less than stellar sales, everyone else's experience is quite different from yours.

If you like them, that's great (especially since you paid for them), but go put a few through a TBAC Ultra 9 and decide for yourself if the OSS is really so superior.

 

[lovethosesooners]

“Don't pay much attention to my threads, do ya”
Actually, no I’ve not seen your other posts nor do I have the desire to debate you or anyone else....if you like the baffle cans, then that’s great.

I’m sharing my experience with what’s regarded as a very good baffle can that I’ve put thousands of rounds through (the sig 762qdti) as well as the silencerco hybrid vs the oss...still have all of them.

Regards how they sound, I’m more concerned with what it sounds like where my ears are and less so at the muzzle-it most definitely is quiet where my ears are.

Again, if you like the baffle cans, terrific, but I’ve used and owned both so what I’ve spent my $ on has nothing to do with my opinions of how different they are-I’m simply sharing the knowledge I’ve gained through having both and folks can take it for what it’s worth-if low blow back and a cool running can is important to some like it is to me, then they may want to consider the new design.

 

[Elkins45]

A silencer is a heat engine. It reduces sound by converting the kinetic energy of a muzzle blast into heat so that it doesn’t exit the gun as quickly and produces less sound. If a can is not as warm (less mirage) then I confess I don’t understand how the silencer can be doing a very good job. A 100% effective can would convert all of the muzzle blast into heat and would be extremely hot after just the first round.

 

[lovethosesooners]

All I can say is it works very well-I put my $ where my words are and wouldn’t be buying a 2nd when I already have 2 baffle cans and don’t have any rifle set up to run with a can that doesn’t have 1 to run on it.

I imagine I’ll keave some low volume bolt guns set to run the baffle cans on, but anything that’s higher volume and especially semi autos, no brainer on running 1 of the 2 oss cans on those.

IMO, the military channel is as knowledgeable and objective as any of the channels, so you may want to see his for some in depth testing.

 

[mikesmith13807]

A silencer is a heat engine. It reduces sound by converting the kinetic energy of a muzzle blast into heat so that it doesn’t exit the gun as quickly and produces less sound. If a can is not as warm (less mirage) then I confess I don’t understand how the silencer can be doing a very good job. A 100% effective can would convert all of the muzzle blast into heat and would be extremely hot after just the first round.

I found this thread while searching for reviews of OSS products. Since I've been following them for many years I'm pretty familiar with their pitch, so I can answer this question. You are correct that baffle designs heat up quickly because they are containing rapidly expanding gas instead of allowing it to escape. What OSS does instead is to give that gas a route to flow through inside the suppressor. The idea is that it follows a long path that both circles the cylinder and also goes back and forth along the length of the cylinder. I believe the current designs make three trips--first forward, then backward, then forward and out. If you've never seen the interior of their design, there are layers of spiraling channels for the gas to flow through. I think the number I heard back when they were doing the over-the-barrel models was that the gas traveled something like 40+ inches before being allowed to exit. Here's a quick video I took on my kitchen floor trying to show the interior of my older Gen 4 version:



The idea is that during that time it slows down and when it exits there is not as much pressure and rapid expansion to create noise. That also results in much lower exterior temperatures, which they demonstrated here:



The octagonal exterior sleeve is designed to break up the mirage and seems to do that well based on user reports, but they moved away from that in the new design for various reasons.

Of course, the reduction of backpressure is a big deal for the reliable function of the gun. Sure, you can probably improve timing issues with an adjustable gas block, but they claim that doesn't eliminate the extra gas coming back down the barrel:



I personally think it's a bandaid approach that's much less ideal than the comprehensive solution of a design that's invisible to the action of the gun. I'd rather set my gun to work the same with or without the suppressor than to have to do something special to accommodate a suppressor when attached. Everybody can choose for themselves how to deal with that issue, of course. Here's an older video showing the bolt speed variation:



The downside of that design is that yes--they typically measure higher at the traditional testing location 1 meter to the left of the muzzle, although I think that if you use the longer 7.62 versions on 5.56 you can generate pretty competitive muzzle numbers. The upside is that because there is a minimal increase in backpressure you get measurements at the ear that are significantly lower than most baffle designs. If you look at a baffle design that generates low numbers at the muzzle, if the tester also measures at the ear you usually see numbers significantly over 140 db, especially for 7.62. The problem is that because so few testers have measured at the ear until recently, all most people have to consider is the muzzle numbers. So there are a bunch of people shooting suppressed rifles that they think are hearing safe that are most definitely not! Meanwhile the internet is full of people saying OSS products are loud because they don't understand the difference between muzzle levels and ear levels. This is a link to a spreadsheet maintained by the people at NFATalk from testing they have done with quality meters that meet the military specifications. If you review it, you'll see that many popular products are over 140 db at the ear on gas guns. Unfortunately they don't have a lot of data for AR-10 types, but what they do have should be eye-opening for many people:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16j3Nxr_3iKRKnVRTplwyDg5mApxqWhauRwFakB4PSQ0/edit?usp=sharing

It's a lot of data, and you have to pay attention to the details--a lot of the setups were using 7.62 models on 5.56 guns, for example. The ammo is not the same for all tests, and you also have to pay attention to barrel length. A lot of the 5.56 testing was done on a piston 10.5", which seemed to generate significantly lower numbers than a DI 16" which is more common for most buyers. Etc. But if you are interested in this stuff, there's a lot of interesting data to study there!

Anyway, fortunately people like MAC have been looking at the performance at the ear more closely, following the military's lead (many people think the measurement at the muzzle is "mil std", but measurements at the ear have actually been included in military standards for decades). Unfortunately, there's just not a lot of data for OSS products outside of the manufacturer's marketing. The only source I know of for the older models is MAC's videos where he explains and demonstrates the backpressure phenomenon very well. In a recent video he got some very impressive ear numbers on a Tavor with the Helix 556.

We're starting to see reviews with the new QD product line--Pete at The Firearm Blog put out some good numbers last week for the short 5.56 model and he should be doing more sound measurements in the next few weeks. MAC did some testing but he used a bullpup 7.62, which is not really a good indication of what to expect with an AR-type. He said he'll be doing more testing on more platforms in the future--hopefully he does that soon!

 

[lovethosesooners]

thats some really good explanations regards how they operate Mike !

 

[MachIVshooter]

Your link is just for a rimfire test spread sheet.

A lot of the 5.56 testing was done on a piston 10.5", which seemed to generate significantly lower numbers than a DI 16" which is more common for most buyers. Etc.

Then there's a methodology problem. Op rod guns are louder than those with Stoner gas system, and 10.5" has higher uncorking pressure than 16". I have over a dozen ARs with barrels from 7.5" to 22". Shorter is louder.

I found this thread while searching for reviews of OSS products. Since I've been following them for many years

Why are you searching for reviews on a product you're very familiar with and then signing up on a board just to tell us about them?

I thought this was interesting:

Searches related to mikesmith13807
oss suppressor

oss helix 556 for sale

oss helix 556 review

______________________________________________________

And results like this:


OSS supressors? Learn me - AR15.COM
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/OSS-supressors-Learn-me/20-485478/
Jan 11, 2018 - 51 posts - ‎20 authors
Originally Posted By mikesmith13807: OSS really ought to pay me for all the time I spend correcting bad info people put out about them.

______________________________________________________

You should really make your first post an introduction and give people a little to go on, like why they should listen to anything you say. Doubly so when you run around other boards and blogs with the same username and MO. Always fishy.

 

[mikesmith13807]

Your link is just for a rimfire test spread sheet.



Then there's a methodology problem. Op rod guns are louder than those with Stoner gas system, and 10.5" has higher uncorking pressure than 16". I have over a dozen ARs with barrels from 7.5" to 22". Shorter is louder.



Why are you searching for reviews on a product you're very familiar with and then signing up on a board just to tell us about them?

I thought this was interesting:

Searches related to mikesmith13807
oss suppressor

oss helix 556 for sale

oss helix 556 review

______________________________________________________

And results like this:


OSS supressors? Learn me - AR15.COM
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/OSS-supressors-Learn-me/20-485478/
Jan 11, 2018 - 51 posts - ‎20 authors
Originally Posted By mikesmith13807: OSS really ought to pay me for all the time I spend correcting bad info people put out about them.

______________________________________________________

You should really make your first post an introduction and give people a little to go on, like why they should listen to anything you say. Doubly so when you run around other boards and blogs with the same username and MO. Always fishy.

Are you trying to open the spreadsheet on your phone? The rimfire is just the first of many sheets--they have them separated by caliber. Try opening it on a desktop to see everything.

They designate the piston guns with "GP". Basically they are metering whatever people bring to shoot. It's not an attempt to conduct a scientific experiment, it's just a collection of data gathered with good instruments. I wasn't focused on whether pistons are louder or quieter than DI, just pointing out that when looking at the spreadsheet you have to pay attention to the details.

Yes, I intentionally used the same user name so nobody would be wondering if I was the same person. I was searching for reviews that include metering data--I've been following the company for years because I like their design philosophy but it's very difficult to find 3rd party sources of data to corroborate or contradict the manufacturer's claims so I periodically go looking to see if anything new has turned up.

I'm often accused of being a shill, but believe it or not I'm just the kind of person who wants to be helpful, so when I see people repeating bad info I offer what I can to set the record straight to help anybody reading in the future. I'm also very passionate about innovation and improvement so I want to do what I can to help OSS succeed in the marketplace.

 

[lovethosesooners]

but believe it or not I'm just the kind of person who wants to be helpful

Ditto-it was the very same reason I revived this old thread....

It's very common on forums for people to be opposed to something different than what they have, be that a rifle, pistol, suppressor, whatever as a way of justifying their choice of what they have.

To me, that's akin to those in society who are resentful of someone who may have more stuff or more $ than they do-I've always had the thought that what someone else has or doesn't have has no impact whatsoever on what I do or don't have...seems like common sense to me...(the view of the economy as a pie and someone else making more $ means I can't make as much....such a huge misunderstanding of reality in a capitalist economy)....

Anyhow, as stated above, I have no skin in the game here but like you Mike, simply wanted to let others know the benefits the OSS has vs baffle cans-after using both, for most of the uses I have, its simply no contest...whatsoever.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It's very common on forums for people to be opposed to something different than what they have, be that a rifle, pistol, suppressor, whatever as a way of justifying their choice of what they have.

Except that we've articulated exactly why. Conversely, we could say that you vaunt OSS suppressors because you don't want to admit your very expensive cans maybe aren't all that and a bag of chips.

Don't be dismissive & sanctimonious.

I'm familiar with OSS cans, both in design & theory, and in performance. I've also played with TONS of other production cans. Beyond that, I'm a manufacturer, and I've dabbled with more suppressor designs than you can imagine. I have several cans that outperform all or nearly all currently on the market in at least one catagory, and it's usually dB reduction. I've also chased the port noise problem, and have a can I developed specifically for blowback carbines that boasts low back pressure with excellent suppression:



I just finished another prototype that only adds 6-3/4" to the OAL of a rifle and suppresses .243 win full power loads down to the sound of disconnecting a pneumatic tool from the air hose coupler.

In short, don't presume to know what's going on in anyone else's mind.

 

[lovethosesooners]

In short, don't presume to know what's going on in anyone else's mind

I’ll stand by what I stated as I wasn’t singling you out about anything-fact is, some folks do exactly as I said, so perhaps you may being a bit presumptuous on your own.

I’ll also stand by what I’ve seen 1st hand with the suppressors I have and know how they’ve worked.

Having said that, I watched your video and that looks to have some of what I consider significant benefits as well, so kudos to you for that as well as your knowledge on the subject (Which still doesn’t make my own observations any less accurate).

Again, if I have the ones I have and chose to buy another to largely replace the baffle cans, it makes a strong argument against my attempting to justify my purchase of the oss..but I wouldn’t want to be too presumptuous as to what your comment as to what I’m thinking, right?

Anyhow, points made all the way around so enjoy your evening

 

[mikesmith13807]

Except that we've articulated exactly why. Conversely, we could say that you vaunt OSS suppressors because you don't want to admit your very expensive cans maybe aren't all that and a bag of chips.

Don't be dismissive & sanctimonious.

I'm familiar with OSS cans, both in design & theory, and in performance. I've also played with TONS of other production cans. Beyond that, I'm a manufacturer, and I've dabbled with more suppressor designs than you can imagine. I have several cans that outperform all or nearly all currently on the market in at least one catagory, and it's usually dB reduction. I've also chased the port noise problem, and have a can I developed specifically for blowback carbines that boasts low back pressure with excellent suppression:



I just finished another prototype that only adds 6-3/4" to the OAL of a rifle and suppresses .243 win full power loads down to the sound of disconnecting a pneumatic tool from the air hose coupler.

In short, don't presume to know what's going on in anyone else's mind.

I'm not here to argue with anybody, just to share information that might be helpful and learn if there's something new to learn.

I respect your expertise and experience, and I'm glad that you are trying to improve sound levels at the ear--we need everybody in the industry to do more in that area. I genuinely am looking for hard data about OSS products. If you are familiar with OSS products, have you ever done any sound level testing with a quality milspec meter? Are you aware of anybody who has?

 

[lovethosesooners]

Hesitant to stick my head back in here on this subject, but my purpose in saying anything in the 1st place was to share what experience I’ve had with the cans I’ve had...I don’t claim to be an expert just sharing what I’ve seen 1st hand (and per above, understand Mach IV knows much more about it than I and I’m not looking to argue with anyone either ).

So, since your looking for testing information, the military arms channel (Mac) on YouTube has tested them a lot-that’s where I got much of the info I was repeating above...I see him as someone who also is very knowledgeable and I’ve never seen anything from him where he appears to be “selling” anything. I’ve seen others as well but again, I trust his info.

Take it for what it’s worth I’m just passing on an answer to your request for testing info.

 

[mikesmith13807]

Yeah I follow MAC pretty closely, big fan. Going off my memory, he metered a 7.62 Helix on a piston gun, and recently did the new 7.62 QD on an MDR. He also did a 5.56 Helix on a Tavor but only at the ear. I know he's a big fan but I'm hoping he will eventually do some more measuring using a more common setup (AR15/10 with standard gas block) for a better apples to apples comparison with competitors.

 

[MachIVshooter]

If you are familiar with OSS products, have you ever done any sound level testing with a quality milspec meter? Are you aware of anybody who has?

I have not. I'm awaiting the 180 dB 4148 microphone for my Bruhl & Kjaer 2204 40-170 dB meter that will finally allow me to put hard numbers on my cans. Been shopping for some time waiting for a decent deal on what are generally very expensive items. SPL meters can be had cheap, but not the kind which will pick up high level impulse noises like gunshots. The newer digital SPL meters I'd love to have start at about $8k on the used market

At any rate, I don't know anyone around here who actually owns an OSS 1st or 2nd gen, but should the opportunity arise, I'll run side-by-sides with it, some other premium commercial cans and a few of mine for 40" perpendicular and at-the-ear levels.

 

[mikesmith13807]

That's cool, the more people we have putting out solid data, especially at the ear, the better for all of us! I subscribed to your channel and I'll be looking forward to seeing what you put out.

 

[Hoser]

OSS cans are too heavy and too loud. Not a fan.

If you just want to get rid of back pressure, put a flash hider on.

I have about 7-8 of them on the shelf right now. After a live fire demo, people purchase something else.