Thoughts on running "slugs only" in a defensive gun?

[Trebor]

What are the thoughts on running "slugs only" in a defensive pump 12 guage?

I'm interested in using a shotgun for home defense instead of, or in addition to, the pistol I currently use. I'm interested in them because of their increased terminal effect on the target, not for any real or perceived increase in hit probability.

I'm not much of a shotgun guy. I don't hunt or shoot skeet or trap and my experience with shotguns is pretty limited. I have some basic training on them, but not nearly as much as I do with handgun or rifle.

I've looked into getting more training, and one of the things I've noticed is the emphasis on mastering "select a slug" drills and the like and the importance of knowing whether the next round up is buck or a slug and how to change it out if it's the wrong one.

That's a lot of fairly complex weapon manipulations for a system that I really don't know that I want to spend *that* much time to master.

It just seems to me that it would be so much simplier to run "slugs only" in a defensive shotgun. Slugs will have at least the same, if not better, terminal effect on the target and I don't have to worry about somehow getting in a situation where the shot load is *just* out of effective range and I now have to "select a slug" to finish the fight. (Granted, in a house, that is less likely then for say a police officer on patrol, but it's still my thinking).

So, what am I missing here? What disadvantage, if any, would I get by running slugs only instead of 00 buck and have slugs handy for "select a slug" drills?

And, please don't tell me just to "train more" with the shotgun so that selecting a slug won't be a problem. I do plan to train more specifically with the shotgun, but I don't think I have the time, money, or interest to train to the level where I am proficient with it as I am with a handgun. Since I can carry a handgun with me anywhere I go, and I can't do that with a shotgun or rifle, I dedicate most of my training to handguns.

 

[glocksrfugly]

I would rethink using slugs in a home defense environment. 00 or 000 buckshot is a better choice. Buckshot is plenty lethal on Man sized targets and should be effective to 30 yards or so ( most home defense situations would be well within 20 yards). Slugs will penetrate many layers of drywall and even stucco or plywood and the risk of injury to loved ones or neighbors is greater than buckshot. Buckshot will still penetrate walls but it is alot less than a single 1 oz. chunk of lead moving at 1350 feet per second. Also your hit probability is greater with buckshot as you have a pattern of 9 to 12 .35 or .36 caliber balls a few inches across rather than just the one projectile in a slug. In a stress situation it's alot easier to just put the front bead on the perps center mass and shoot. Where as with a slug you have to line up the front bead with whatever rear sight there is and aim (most shotguns have no rear sights unless they are specifically made for shooting slugs).
Methinks that if you ever had to shoot an intruder it would look a lot better to a jury if you used buckshot rater than a massive chunk of lead as big around as a thumb!

 

[Regolith]

The biggest disadvantage would be increased recoil and penetration. Slugs are like energizer bunnies; they keep going and going and going....so if you're in a densely populated area, they probably aren't a good idea.

The recoil can be mitigated if you make a few changes to the gun to make it heavier and/or choose reduce recoil loads.

There are some members here who prefer going slugs only. Its easier than keeping up with what kind of ammo you're running at the moment, as you don't need to change out loads if the distances start getting longer.

I personally don't do slugs only, but I'm in an apartment, and buckshot penetrates almost too much as it is.

 

[Regolith]

Where as with a slug you have to line up the front bead with whatever rear sight there is and aim (most shotguns have no rear sights unless they are specifically made for shooting slugs).

Actually, you can be plenty accurate using a bead sight. You just have to get the hang of using it.

 

[RyanM]

Foster slugs do not penetrate interior walls any better than an average service caliber pistol round, and would be only marginally better against brick or stone. The full power ones also penetrate tissue about as well as your average decent quality pistol JHP. Reduced recoil slugs penetrate more like a pistol FMJ.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Slugs went through 12 layers of drywall, and exited with barely any velocity left.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Oh, look, 9mm and .45 both went through 12 boards, as well. If there had been a water jug behind them for that test, I doubt the pistols would have done worse than one just barely penetrating, and one bouncing off.

Overall, Foster slugs have to be the most overrated things on the planet. The heavy weight and high momentum look great on paper, but you have a very crappy sectional density to contend with. A 1 ounce 12 ga slug is the equivalent to a 167 gr .45, or a 103 gr 9mm.

You should basically consider a shotgun with Foster slugs to be a .73 bore pistol caliber carbine. It'll penetrate about as many walls as a pistol (which is to say a lot), but less than most rifle calibers.

In terms of wounding performance, you can basically consider full power Foster slugs to be on par with a .30-30, but with shorter range and less penetration. The reduced recoil ones do a lot worse, and are sorta like a pre-expanded pistol JHP, with much deeper penetration. In general, at close range, full power Foster slugs destroy more tissue than full power buckshot, but reduced recoil slugs are a bit behind reduced recoil buck.

 

[PJR]

I was in a situation involving a black bear where I would have rather had a slug in the gun but wasn't about to go fumbling around to put one in. The encounter ended peacefully but since then I've gone almost exclusively to slugs. My 870 is loaded with a #4 buck up first, then followed by Brenneke slugs. Most of my needs are to dispatch small vermin and #4 buck is excellent for the purpose. If I need the slug I know that it's next in the tube and can be pumped in quickly.

I am however in a rural environment and want the added range a slug offers.

 

[Trebor]

Ok, there are some good comments and ideas here. I'm still thinking this through.

Let me clarify: My question is based on my needs in my situation. I live in a house and I'm looking at a home defense weapon to back up my pistol.m

I am NOT concerned with hunting or animal control.

I AM concerned with terminal impact on the target, overpenetration and simplicity of use.

Most likely the ranges would be indoors and under 7 to 10 yards. There's a slim change for longer range because of the layout of my house, but it's more unlikely.

What about if I turn this around and consider running "buck only?" I'm not sure if I really need to worry about the bad guy being just out of range of buck or not. This is a surburban area with neighbors close by.

 

[dewage83]

slugs give you the opportunity to engage a target at a further distance. Also if the target is assaulting your girlfriend you would not want to let off a shell of buck shot. These are the two factors that led me to use "slugs only". Im not debating the effectiveness of buck, just stating personal preference.

 

[un_lucky]

For in the house buckshot only would be my choice. If you get to know how your gun patterns you could definitely take the get off her shot.

 

[rcmodel]

IMO: Slugs have no place inside a sheet-rock apartment or home if you have neighbors.
Period!

You are not going to be in a long-range sniping match with a bad guy in your house.

If you go outside and continue blasting, your justifiable shooting will quickly turn into man-slaughter or murder.

If a dose of 00 Buck at room distance doesn't do the trick, a slug won't either.

rcmodel

 

[Girodin]

Methinks that if you ever had to shoot an intruder it would look a lot better to a jury if you used buckshot rater than a massive chunk of lead as big around as a thumb!

I dont think that would be a real big factor. One can just as easily spin the 9-12 projectile angle.

In my mind the biggest issue with slugs would be over penetration. That is one of the reasons I personaly prefer buckshot. Your concerns and risks of over penetration ought to be examined.

In terms of running buckshot only here are concerns and issues I have heard raised

Buckshot has less range. That siad, I live in a decent sized home but the longest lines of sight are not more than 25 yards and most are much less. I dont know the layout of your home but in mine I dont worry too much about taking a shot outside of the Range of buckshot.

I have heard people critique buckshot for the lack of ability to make percision shots. Specificaly they mentioned a hostage situation, ie intruders are holding a member of your family.

That is not a situation I am overly worried about. I also dont think I would be taking that shot with a slug anyways. I have a rifle in my room to and if I need a percision shot it will be handy. I dont invision any real probable (even relatively speaking) scenerios in which I will need percision fire for HD. That is given my home and other security measures and plans of action. You can decide if that is an issue for you.

Buckshot wont penetrate body armor. Again you can decide for your self how much that worries you.

Buckshot may have less ability to stop a vehicle. This is not a huge concern for me for HD. You can evaluate that for yourself.

In all honesty I think being able to make shots with whatever you chose to run is more important than what you chose. Buckshot and slugs are both capable of stopping threats quickly. I like the Saiga 12 and think that a mag of each is sufficient for me. I like the mag in the gun to have OO buck.

 

[Girodin]

BTW I would probably go with my carbine over slugs only but that is another discussion

 

[Dave McCracken]

A couple thoughts....

There's slugs and there's slugs...

I don't have lots of ballistic gel on hand to conduct tests on relative penetration like theboxoftruth folks, but I do have some first hand observations on slug performance on whitetails.

Eastern Shore deer are hunted close and sudden with slugs only in the counties I used to hunt.

With yearlings having a live weight of about 120 lbs and big deer of either gender going close to 200, an apples to apples comparison can be made.

I recall shooting one button buck that another hunter had crippled with a shot to the lower leg. My Rottweil Brenekke slug was fired from the ground at about 10 yards max. It entered near the point of the left shoulder and ended up breaking the right leg high up and stopping there. Call it 30" of penetration through tissue and organs.

Another meat animal was taken at 25 yards with Winchester's 1 oz rifled HP slug. A broadside shot centered on the shoulder had an entrance wound 4 fingers wide. A friend who witnessed this shot thought I was using some super secret LE only exploding ammo. When the animal was recovered,the flattened, silver dollar sized slug was found in the opposite shoulder.

A series of herd control tags were filled on does using the popular KO Brenekke 1 oz slug. This is actually more like the traditional "rifled" slug than the hardcast Brenekke with the attached base wad. More often then not on broadside shots behind the shoulder, the slug exited. Typical ranges ran from 20-35 yards. With all else equal, this kind of slug can be expected to be slightly less penetrative than either sabots or traditionally styled Brenekkes.

In either deer hunting or defense, we want the projectile(s) to remain in the target, expending ALL its energy there.

All in all, IMO, someone using only slugs for defense is not making the best choice under most circumstances.

 

[Defensory]

"For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches.

Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not."

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

 

[jakemccoy]

I'm interested in reading about any case where a homeowner took out a bad guy who was holding a family member hostage.

slugs give you the opportunity to engage a target at a further distance. Also if the target is assaulting your girlfriend you would not want to let off a shell of buck shot. These are the two factors that led me to use "slugs only". Im not debating the effectiveness of buck, just stating personal preference.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where I'd open fire on a bad guy who's assaulting (e.g., wrestling or whatever) with a family member.

 

[jakemccoy]

Why would someone choose to load their shotgun with "slugs only" instead of using a rifle?

The original poster said he's much more experienced with rifles. So, I'm wondering what the slug gun brings him and how any advantage would outweigh lack of training.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Jake, Louis Awerbuck loads his shotgun with slugs only.

 

[jakemccoy]

I'm sure there's some self-defense master out there who has a crossbow as their choice of weaponry. That information alone wouldn't mean I'll be propping up a crossbow next to my bed.

Again, the original poster is way more experienced with rifles. What does a slug gun bring to the table for such a person?

 

[Robert Hairless]

I'm sure there's some self-defense master out there who has a crossbow as their choice of weaponry. That information alone wouldn't mean I'll be propping up a crossbow next to my bed.

You demolished both my point and Louis Awerbuck with one slug. It's a pleasure to watch a master in action or a witness that lacks credibility.

Which self-defense master has a crossbow as their choice of weaponry, by the way? I trust your certainty.

 

[Trebor]

The choice for me is between using a rifle or shotgun to suplement my pistol for home defense.

Right now it's a rifle, either a M-1 Carbine or a Daewoo AR100 in 5.56.

I'm interested in a shotgun for the increased terminal effectiveness. But, I'm a little put off by what I see as the added complexity in the manual of arms.

I have had some shotgun training at LFI 2 and plan to take a dedicated defensive shotgun class either in 2008still or early 2009.

So, while I'm still in the "exploration" stages of using a shotgun for defense I thought I'd ask if there were any drawbacks to running "slugs only." It seems to simplify the operation of the gun quite a bit to me, but I'm not much of a shotgunner so there could be something I haven't considered.

The other reason I'm considering a shotgun over a rifle is to reduce overpentration through exterior walls. This may not work the way I envision it and I need to do a little more research. My thought is that a slug is less likely to overpenetrate an exterior wall then a sold rifle round due to the lower velocity. If I ran with 00 Buck instead, I'm pretty sure that would have less chance to overpenetrate the exterior walls and endanger my neighbors.

In the end I may decide to stick with handgun + rifle. I'll have to see how much more comfortable I am with the shotgun after I take a class with one and then decide.

 

[jakemccoy]

Robert, you're completely right. I'm completely wrong. Now, let's get back to the thread.

Trebor, you highlighted some good points if, in fact, those are differences between a slug gun and a rifle. However, I don't think the original poster is too concerned about overpenetration. Also, I never thought of "less penetration" as a reason for going with slugs. I don't think it is a reason.

For home defense, I'm wondering how a comparison of a slug gun to a rifle pans out. It seems that if one is interested in longer ranges, a rifle capable of holding many rounds would be superior to a slug gun. A slug seems to be more for someone who might want to pop in buck shells. If you're going with "slugs only" or if you may be "taking a bad guy holding a hostage", what's the purpose of going with a shotgun platform anyway?

 

[Trebor]

Jakemccoy

I *am* the original poster.

And yes, overpenetration is one of the factors I'm considering, althought I may not have made that clear in the original post.

 

[JShirley]

In either deer hunting or defense, we want the projectile(s) to remain in the target, expending ALL its energy there.

Dave, you undoubtedly have more, waaaay more shells fired than I. I personally do want complete penetration on game, though.

Mr. Reed,

I run slugs only in my 500. This link shows that 00 buckshot actually penetrated more deeply in gelatin at very close range. It is probably also wise to understand that penetration in tissue will be less than in gel.

Something to understand, is that expanding rifle rounds will not tend to overpenetrate, typically. Ironically enough (considering the Korean War stories, likely caused by misses from M2s), .30 Carbine does penetrate like the dickens, in my experience. (GA Arms SP) Be sure to test whatever you consider using. There are rounds available for both M1 Carbine and .223 that will be highly effective and exhibit penetration you should be comfortable with. Federal American Eagle 50 grain HP .223 was once very inexpensive, functioned reliably in my rifle, and displayed dramatic, explosive fragmentation in water. If you believe in, say, 12" minimum of penetration in gelatin, this or similar rounds will not be for you. There is a thread discussing this in Rifle right now.

Regards,

John

PS: My home defense longarm is a 16" AR carbine.

 

[Jst1mr]

My thoughts...

Assuming you have your shotgun set up for HD (typically short barrel, extended mag, and some means of holding additional shells...) run your magazine one short of capacity, chamber and mag loaded w/ buckshot, with your extra shell holder stocked with slugs. At anytime you can stuff a slug into the mag and be one shot (or eject an unfired) away from a slug, if needed for some situation. Sure, you may sacrifice one shell capacity, but if you haven't gotten the job done with, say, 5 shots of buckshot and 4 or more slugs...well then, it is serious trouble, indeed.

 

[moss590]

ive been running augila mini slugs in my mossberg 590 and im able to have a 13+1 capacity and12 on my side saddle with 4 in the speed feed butstock