Thoughts on running "slugs only" in a defensive gun?

[Mossberg535]

That's exactly what I just ordered 5 days ago! I bought 5 shells of Federal 12 gauge 3" Magnum 000 copper plated buckshot. I am a newb to shotguns (just got my first Mossberg 500 about 2 weeks ago), and am getting some ammo just to test out. I know these are going to kick hard, but I just want to see how it is. I bought 100 shells of 2 3/4" birdshot from Walmart for $20, just for cheap "newb" practice; to break me in, I guess.

Honestly, I hope I never have to use them
I use Remington game loads pretty much exclusively and only plan on shooting these magnums if its to stop an intruder.
I honestly stopped using shotguns to hunt with (I only really hunt squirrel) because of my hearing and the recoil. It was fun when I was a kid...that old TC 30-30 12" pistol was great until I got a bit older.
The game loads are perfect for my kind of target and hunting needs. Those magnums are hopefully going to be of little or no use since I know Im going to be flinching if I do have to shoot an intruder.

Anyway, for home defense, I'd think: when in doubt, load the first shell with buckshot (of your choice), and keep the rest in the tube slugs! If the buckshot doesn't [somehow] stop the criminal, I think the slug will work.

I like the 000s personally. I live in the city and Id like for the neighbors to not die too
I really dont understand the idea of using slugs for HD anyway. Its not like buckshot isnt going to do the trick

 

[ImARugerFan]

Aim. That's why. If you have to act quickly, you're more likely to hit the target with 00 buck than a slug. I can't think of a home defense situation where you would need to shoot over 10 yards, let alone 30 yards.

 

[Shadowangel]

I run 00 buck through most of my 870's tube, with the last two rounds being slugs, just in case.

 

[JShirley]

If you have the option, and have even minimal familiarity with it, a longarm should always be chosen over a sidearm.

The longarm has a stock. This makes presentation faster and more accurate than a handgun. It also aids in control when shots are fired.

And longarms are considerably more powerful. I believe comparing a round ball to a bullet is an apples to oranges comparison: you will not be firing multiple 9x19mm projectiles, but even buckshot is considerably more powerful than any handgun (until you start getting into what are really carbine cartridges, like .460 S&W).

John

 

[Mossberg535]

I found this chart for shot size.
Looks like the 000's are about the same diameter as a 9mm.
that seems pretty large....is the chart accurate ?
The shells I got have 10 pellets in them. I cant imagine anything being hit by that much lead and getting back up.

 

[JShirley]

A solid hit with buckshot or slugs will most likely do the job.

However, I am aware of shots up to 30mm cannon* and 40mm grenade that were not fatal, so I wouldn't bet on it. That's why you shoot twice, if you have the option.

John

*I was in theater for this one, not just something I heard on the 'net.

 

[jakemccoy]

However, I am aware of shots up to 30mm cannon* and 40mm grenade that were not fatal, so I wouldn't bet on it.

That's nuts. In that case, the missing variable is good shot placement, right?

=====

These discussions about ammo to the nth degree seem practically meaningless because shot placement is a huge factor in the equation.

#4 buck, 000 Buck, slug or whatever... A competent shooter will get 'er done. An incompetent shooter won't. Practice.

 

[Bix]

You seem a bit over-worried about learning about the Shotgun. Personally, I don't think it's that hard, really

My experience is somewhat different. Based on my experience in couple shotgun classes and a couple handgun classes, I believe a (pump action) shotgun is comparatively difficult to run under stress. Awerbuck said: "The manipulation will get you." The manipulation got me .

That said, the shotgun is what's kept close at home - because I can get more decisive hits more quickly and more accurately with it. As JShirley said, the long gun has it all over the handgun in that regard.

I just think that if you're going to keep a (pump action) shotgun around, you need to have someone good show you a system for running it and you need to invest some time into mastery and maintainence of that system.

 

[JShirley]

the missing variable is good shot placement, right?

Eh. I doubt the 30mm scored a direct hit, but the 40mm lodged in a VC jaw. I'd personally say that was pretty good placement.

My point being that a single shot from any weapon may not instantly do the job. An acquaintance of staff member and friend Byron Quick took a 20 gauge slug to the chest. He was still alive when EMS arrived (though he did expire shortly afterward).

If he'd had a firearm, I'm pretty sure the guy who tagged him would have been taking rounds. Don't assume a single round of anything will instantly do the job.

John

 

[JeepGeeek]

only advantage I could see would be if you didn't have neighbors or family to worry about the slug hurting after it exited the BG.

They'd be VERY effective on the BG. But I wouldn't want to put money on where they'd finally end up.

 

[JeepGeeek]

in case it hasn't already been mentioned:

BoT tests birdshot/buckshot/slugs in a 20 and a 12 gauge.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

(edit: add the link, stoopit! )

 

[scythefwd]

RyanM,
It's not the overpenetration (geeze, that is only 6 walls worth of plaster board there), its the fact that it's putting quarter sized holes in the target. It is easier to fix someone up that has a 9mm hole through them than someone that has a .54 cal hole through then (for a sabot, the rifled slugs are closer to .65 cal). Also, what is the speed of those rounds he was shooting? The sabots I use are moving 1700 fps (I don't use my non rifled barrel)

 

[RyanM]

It's not the overpenetration (geeze, that is only 6 walls worth of plaster board there), its the fact that it's putting quarter sized holes in the target. It is easier to fix someone up that has a 9mm hole through them than someone that has a .54 cal hole through then (for a sabot, the rifled slugs are closer to .65 cal). Also, what is the speed of those rounds he was shooting? The sabots I use are moving 1700 fps (I don't use my non rifled barrel)

Right, that's why I prefer slugs over shot in most cases. Pistol-like penetration, and terminal performance is a bit better than buckshot. Standard foster slugs, which is what were tested, are 1550 to 1600 fps usually. But like I said, foster slugs, at least in deer, seem to be about the equivalent of a .30-30, maybe a bit better, but with shorter range. There are better choices for home defense out there.

All in all, though, I prefer intermediate caliber rifles, or for the very recoil-shy and/or in situations requiring reduced penetration, pistol caliber carbines.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

My thought is, if you're gonna do that, why not just use a rifle? Less recoil means more shots on target. Higher velocity means more hydrostatic shock effect, and less ricochet concerns.

Shotguns should be shooting birdshot or buckshot to make them worth using, UNLESS you're trying to kill a very large/tough animal with slugs.

 

[JShirley]

I wouldn't hesitate to use my slug-loaded 500 defensively, though the "Beast", my custom 12 ga bolt-action, wouldn't be my first choice.

I would prefer my AR-15, though. More rounds. More practice (with the M4). Though my 500 is great for any bgs running through the brush in my home.

 

[JShirley]

Y'all might want to check out this recent post re point-blank shot w/ Foster slug on a deer. It certainly conflicts with the popular "slugs penetrate like the dickens!" idea...

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Another report of slug performance at close range on a deer:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=150073

Summary: Guy shot whitetail doe at about 15 yards and the slug came apart, without exiting.

 

[JShirley]

So, typical performance from full-power Fosters on deer-sized game seems to be effective but NOT overly penetrative.

J

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

So, typical performance from full-power Fosters on deer-sized game seems to be effective but NOT overly penetrative.

That's exactly how I would put it.

 

[Zip7]

I've shot probably 10 deer with 3" #1 buckshot at distances from 10-40 yards, and only one left his tracks. He ran 10 yards further and fell. The rest of them looked like they got hit with a giant hammer. Seldom if ever get exit wounds.

I patterned the gun I use with different buckshot sizes at 30 yards and # 1 was the best, and that is why I used it. I wouldn't shoot at a deer at more than 40 with it, though - slugs are definitely the way to go for range.

But, at HD distances, if you shoot a guy with anything bigger than lead BB shot, I'd guess he would cease to exist. At close range, a shotgun with buckshot is all but certain death with one shot. I guess a person could survive it, but I'd be surprised if he would still be a threat after taking a load of buckshot to the chest.

 

[Gordon]

Remington "Tactical" slugs are reduced power (1200fps) one once BUTTER soft flatnose forster slugs that flatten in about 3" of flesh (I've shot steers with them) to over an inch in diameter and penetrate about 15" total if a major bone is not hit. . Such performance is about optimum in humans and that is why so many very progressive PDs issue them. The 30% reduction in recoil and attenuated blast allows quick follow up shots. They drop less than a foot at 100 meters (about 10") when sighted in at 25 yards and are VERY accurate in my 870's, Benelli and every gun I've seen them shot in.. I don't reccomend them in apartments or close in dwellings where you don't know what the back stop is. I DO reccomend them in MY living room if somebody has a gun to the head of my wife .

 

[Geronimo45]

I don't know. I see slugs as useful for longer ranges and bigger critters (bears, Bigfoot, etc). Shotguns tend to be smoothbore 'cause they're made to throw shot.
If I was just wanting to throw a big chunk of lead downrange, I'd go with a Marlin in .45/70 instead.
Just my opinion. Worth everything you paid for it.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Zip - shootin deer with #1 buck - are these neck shots or vitals? I was considering using triple ought buck on deer for neck shots out to 35 or 40 yards (x-full choke, 12 ga), instead of a rifle this year.

The slugs-not-exiting on deer thing doesn't suprise me that much (a little bit though). The foster slugs are soft lead - no tin/antimony, and so expand like the dickens. Let's not miss the point that in so expanding, they're *excellent* deer killers. Might have to re-think using Rem 602 gr Buckhammers on large hogs however, as I'd planned - they might not penetrate enough.

 

[Fred Fuller]

So, typical performance from full-power Fosters on deer-sized game seems to be effective but NOT overly penetrative.

John,

For the typical soft lead, hollow base American offerings, yes- that's a pretty safe statement. For hard lead alloy, solid body, sharp-shouldered slugs like Brennekes though, it's a different deal.

IMHO any load to be used in a defensive shotgun needs to be tested pretty thoroughly by the shooter who will be using it. That includes slugs. I was surprised at how relatively easy it was to stop soft lead shuttlecock design slugs with hard cover- or even flesh and bone (my experience with deer mimics the results above).

But the reason I have slugs on board the gun is to be able to shoot through cover on demand, or to reach further than the effective range of buckshot. I don't want a slug that's easy to stop- I use buckshot for that job. I want to be able to shoot through the refrigerator or the kitchen counter, if I have to.

Of course, OPMMV...

lpl/nc

 

[Mossberg535]

maybe Im stuck in rifle land here, but I thought the idea was to only penetrate so much then have as much expansion as possible so that all of the energy causes as much internal shock as possible to the deer, etc ?