bukijin
Member
I know you guys have a lot more experience and knowledge than me but I have to say that I am 100% confident in using 00Buck in my shotgun for defense.
Thoughts on running "slugs only" in a defensive gun?
- Thread starter Trebor
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Both - have had several neck shots - not really on purpose, but it kills instantly. I just use the regular full choke tube, because that's what patterned best.
I shot an 8 point that was moving at a fast trot at about 25 yards... held on the tip of his nose and most of the load hit him in the neck. He cut a complete flip and died instantly. I mounted the antlers on a plaque, and there is a flattened out buckshot pellet embedded in the base of the right antler.
The only one that went anywhere after shooting was 40 yards away in a thicket and I had a small window to shoot in - and I was shooting at his neck/head because he was at a fast walk - pellets hit him all over because they had spread out quite a bit. He went about 10 yards out into a slough and keeled over.
I've taken a good many deer with a rifle and been on many hunts where deer where taken with rifles - 270, 30-06, 7mm... lots of adequate calibers that would produce plenty of penetration, and I find it's rare that I rifle shot to the vitals won't pass through and the deer go at least a little ways after the shot. Buckshot is a much, much more deadly round to deer at its proper range than most high powered rifles.
In defense of the rifle though, I watched a friend of mine shoot an 8 point that was running wide open and quartering away through the woods, and on the third shot with a lever 30-30 at about 50 yards, he hit it in the neck and it cut about 4 flips before coming to a stop.
Just based on what I've seen while deer hunting, I think it would be incredibly unlikely for a person to survive being shot at close range with #1 buckshot - never mind the larger stuff. In fact, the larger buckshot is probably overkill IMO.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
John,
KOs are similar in shape and composition (i.e., hard lead alloy, solid body) to the traditional Brenneke slug, but their base wad is plastic and snaps into a recess in the base of the slug. The base wad on the traditional Brenneke is a felt wad, and is held in place with a screw. It's the light weight base wad which stabilizes Brenneke slugs in flight, much like the fletching on an arrow.
Traditional Foster type slugs are usually soft lead, and are hollow based designs, like a lead cup. They are stabilized like badminton shuttlecocks, because most of their weight is forward in the nose and in flight, airflow over the 'skirt' helps keep it stable.
I started using KOs because of the price, was impressed by their accuracy, and then tested their penetration, which was also good. Only problem now is finding them on sale cheap 8^).
lpl/nc
KOs are similar in shape and composition (i.e., hard lead alloy, solid body) to the traditional Brenneke slug, but their base wad is plastic and snaps into a recess in the base of the slug. The base wad on the traditional Brenneke is a felt wad, and is held in place with a screw. It's the light weight base wad which stabilizes Brenneke slugs in flight, much like the fletching on an arrow.
Traditional Foster type slugs are usually soft lead, and are hollow based designs, like a lead cup. They are stabilized like badminton shuttlecocks, because most of their weight is forward in the nose and in flight, airflow over the 'skirt' helps keep it stable.
I started using KOs because of the price, was impressed by their accuracy, and then tested their penetration, which was also good. Only problem now is finding them on sale cheap 8^).
lpl/nc
mgkdrgn
Member
Slugs .... way way overkill, no pattern, and over penetration to endanger the neighbors.
Go with buckshot ... 000 or 00 will more than get the job done.
Go with buckshot ... 000 or 00 will more than get the job done.
I can see why some would want to run slugs only in their shotgun.
Anyone who's ever launched one of those pumpkin sized projectiles into wood or metal HAS TO have been somewhat impressed by the hole it created. Plus there are now alternatives to the Foster and the Brenekee slugs that provide even more stopping power and that will create an even bigger hole.
Personally I'd rather have #4 Buckshot for the first few shells and then load the rest of the tube with slugs (possibly to shoot through light cover since if it's gone on that long everyone will more than likely have taken some kind of cover), but to each their own.
If you do decide to go with slugs check out the Quik-Shok 12 Gauge Sabot Slug.
http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/quik-shok-sabot-slugs/
Since they're a sabot slug and slightly smaller (.68) you maximize velocity and since it's pre-fragmented you don't have to worry about it penetrating through alot of hard house materials and it expands and then fragments which helps greatly with stopping power (not like you'd have much of a problem there no matter what slug you used).
Anyone who's ever launched one of those pumpkin sized projectiles into wood or metal HAS TO have been somewhat impressed by the hole it created. Plus there are now alternatives to the Foster and the Brenekee slugs that provide even more stopping power and that will create an even bigger hole.
Personally I'd rather have #4 Buckshot for the first few shells and then load the rest of the tube with slugs (possibly to shoot through light cover since if it's gone on that long everyone will more than likely have taken some kind of cover), but to each their own.
If you do decide to go with slugs check out the Quik-Shok 12 Gauge Sabot Slug.
http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/quik-shok-sabot-slugs/
Since they're a sabot slug and slightly smaller (.68) you maximize velocity and since it's pre-fragmented you don't have to worry about it penetrating through alot of hard house materials and it expands and then fragments which helps greatly with stopping power (not like you'd have much of a problem there no matter what slug you used).
My opinion only. I live in a rural environment. Hitting neighbors with a round that over penetrates isn't a problem. Shot doesn't spread enough at home defense ranges for the contention that "you're more likely to hit with shot" to be pure crap. If you're gonna miss with the slug you're gonna miss with shot. In my situation I don't load anything but slugs. I'm not planning to miss and I'm not planning to confuse the nice officer by him having to listen to two stories about what happened. Mine and the perps. Keep it simple, one story. Makes their paperwork easier. If I lived in suburbia I'd load #4's. Your call.
John
John
give
Member
i think slugs are great for deer hunting,but for me personally i want buck shot,dont get me wrong ,you hit someone or something with a slug its going down,but you have to aim ,and that takes time,now say double or triple oo,its more like putting it in the general direction,but hell,all you really need is something in high brass and it should do the job
Sergeant Sabre
Member
Didn't we just show that this was not quite true? Slugs look impressive, but they are butter-soft and have very poor sectional density. They don't penetrate like you would think.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Browning,
MV of the Polywad Quik-Shok slug is stated to be 1500FPS.
MV of the Brenneke KOs I like is 1600FPS.
Cost of the Quik-Shok is listed at $13 for a box of ten.
Last KOs I bought were $1.95 per box of 5 in case lots. I don't expect to see them that cheap again anytime soon, however.
If you want to hunt with slugs, the Quik-Shoks ahould do fine. I keep slugs handy for an HD shotgun in order to 1) convert cover to concealment- that is, shoot through stuff, and 2) extend the range of the shotgun beyond the effective range of buckshot. On 2), the Quik-Shok should do fine. On 1), probably not so much, since they are prefragmented and would likely break up rather than penetrate.
It isn't my purpose or intent to try and tell anyone else here what they should want their shotgun to do. IMHO it's better to decide what jobs you want your HD gun to do for yourself, and then work out the most effective ways to get those jobs done. I want my shotgun to be 1) effective against soft (unprotected) targets at close range (out to 25 yards), 2) to penetrate reasonably substantial cover- walls, furniture, appliances, car doors etc.- sufficiently to turn what is cover for buckshot into mere concealment, and 3) extend the reach of the HD gun out to 100 yards or so.
1) is assigned to tight patterning 00 buckshot. Out of the 18" CYL bore barrel on the shotgun I am most likely to pick up, the Federal LE-127 00 loads I am using will put all nine pellets into a 4" pattern at 25 yards. That should cover job 1.
2) and 3) are assigned to Brenneke KO slugs. I've used a good many of them in the past few years. They'll do fine as long as I do my part.
One other thing is that I like to use ammo that is inexpensive enough to train and practice with. Both the loads above meet that definition.
IMHO shotguns are useful for HD because 1) they are the largest caliber shoulder fired firearm most people can handle, 2) they fire heavier projectiles than any other firearm likely to be used for HD, and 3) the variety of ammunition available makes them very versatile. Even so, my advice to anyone is that they should use whatever weapon for HD they are most confident and capable with.
Oh, and about mixing different loads in the magazine- I'm again' it. I want to know what will be coming out of the muzzle every time I pull the trigger. Under pressure, it's too easy to lose track of how many rounds of what have been fired. YMMV of course- with all of the above.
lpl/nc
MV of the Polywad Quik-Shok slug is stated to be 1500FPS.
MV of the Brenneke KOs I like is 1600FPS.
Cost of the Quik-Shok is listed at $13 for a box of ten.
Last KOs I bought were $1.95 per box of 5 in case lots. I don't expect to see them that cheap again anytime soon, however.
If you want to hunt with slugs, the Quik-Shoks ahould do fine. I keep slugs handy for an HD shotgun in order to 1) convert cover to concealment- that is, shoot through stuff, and 2) extend the range of the shotgun beyond the effective range of buckshot. On 2), the Quik-Shok should do fine. On 1), probably not so much, since they are prefragmented and would likely break up rather than penetrate.
It isn't my purpose or intent to try and tell anyone else here what they should want their shotgun to do. IMHO it's better to decide what jobs you want your HD gun to do for yourself, and then work out the most effective ways to get those jobs done. I want my shotgun to be 1) effective against soft (unprotected) targets at close range (out to 25 yards), 2) to penetrate reasonably substantial cover- walls, furniture, appliances, car doors etc.- sufficiently to turn what is cover for buckshot into mere concealment, and 3) extend the reach of the HD gun out to 100 yards or so.
1) is assigned to tight patterning 00 buckshot. Out of the 18" CYL bore barrel on the shotgun I am most likely to pick up, the Federal LE-127 00 loads I am using will put all nine pellets into a 4" pattern at 25 yards. That should cover job 1.
2) and 3) are assigned to Brenneke KO slugs. I've used a good many of them in the past few years. They'll do fine as long as I do my part.
One other thing is that I like to use ammo that is inexpensive enough to train and practice with. Both the loads above meet that definition.
IMHO shotguns are useful for HD because 1) they are the largest caliber shoulder fired firearm most people can handle, 2) they fire heavier projectiles than any other firearm likely to be used for HD, and 3) the variety of ammunition available makes them very versatile. Even so, my advice to anyone is that they should use whatever weapon for HD they are most confident and capable with.
Oh, and about mixing different loads in the magazine- I'm again' it. I want to know what will be coming out of the muzzle every time I pull the trigger. Under pressure, it's too easy to lose track of how many rounds of what have been fired. YMMV of course- with all of the above.
lpl/nc
Jeff F
Member
I'm just the opposite, the shotgun is my go to weapon of choice, the pistol is secondary unless theres just no time to grab the long gun
rantingredneck
Member
Indeed. I stocked up when they were 2.50 a box. Now they're more like 4.50. I'm slowly working through my stockpile at the range.
To the OP, let me echo some other posters who have pointed out the old saw "software, not hardware". If you're better at running the rifle/handgun combo that may be your answer.
The bulk of my experience has been shotguns due to growing up hunting and shooting mostly shotguns. Therefore, that is what I'd primarily go to for HD.
Sounds like you're situation is exactly opposite.
Other than a few practice rounds here and there (just to stay current), I don't shoot slugs a whole lot anyway.
I'd be using them because they break up quickly and fragment into several different large wound channels (which gives me a better chance of stopping an attacker/intruder). Besides I think that they'd go through a couch or drywall okay (that's the only real cover in my house besides the bookcase).
I'm kind of new here, but I've been walking the earth a pretty long time... so let me clear up a couple of possible misconceptions...
1: Buckshot does not eliminate the need to aim. I know they call it a scattergun, but at home defense range it's not scattering much.
2: If you hit a BG in the chest with a load of any size buckshot, the BG is going to die horribly - and almost immediately, unless he's more than 40 yards away from you in which case you probably wouldn't be shooting him. It doesn't much matter whether you use #4 buck or 000. Maybe it does in the lab, but in real life, the guy can only get so dead. Now if you don't hit him in the chest or head, he's still likely to die - just might take longer - but certainly he won't be bothering you anymore.
Buckshot = death. I can't speak for slugs - I wouldn't want to get shot with one, but if you are worrying whether you should use slugs because you want to make sure you stop the guy, well... reread above. If buckshot won't stop him, you've got yourself an immortal BG.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I'd be using them because they break up quickly and fragment into several different large wound channels (which gives me a better chance of stopping an attacker/intruder).
Which is precisely the reason I (and lots of law enforcement agencies, I might add) use a tight-patterning load of full velocity 00 buck. As I said in an earlier post, the Federal LE127 00 load patterns into 4" at 25 yards for me. Closer up it's the equivalent of a slug- and it has nine separate projectiles, not just three.
It fully satisfies the criteria I established for myself, defining the job I wanted buckshot to do in a defensive shotgun. Of course, that doesn't mean anyone else has to like it- or use it.
lpl
Which is precisely the reason I (and lots of law enforcement agencies, I might add) use a tight-patterning load of full velocity 00 buck. As I said in an earlier post, the Federal LE127 00 load patterns into 4" at 25 yards for me. Closer up it's the equivalent of a slug- and it has nine separate projectiles, not just three.
It fully satisfies the criteria I established for myself, defining the job I wanted buckshot to do in a defensive shotgun. Of course, that doesn't mean anyone else has to like it- or use it.
lpl
Well like I said earlier, whenever I load a shotgun for HD I usually have the first two rounds of #4 buck and then the rest of the tube is filled up with slugs. I'm kind of interested in making sure they get hit with something at the outset (wider pattern).
Yes sir, but those nine seperate projectiles are all smaller and they don't start out at .69 cal.
The three separate wound channels are made after a .69 caliber slug penetrates approximately 5 or 6 inches and then each breaks off into almost 200 grain chunks which will continue 13 to 15 inches.
Really it just boils down to preference (one very big squid shaped entrance and exit wound or a whole bunch of medium sized holes). I don't think that it would really make much of a difference what the intruder/attacker got tagged with in this case (either a slug or buckshot) just so long as the shot placement was there. It's 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another.
Either way they'd be stopped.
I don't sweat terminal effects too much, anymore. My biggest concerns are reliability and accuracy, with terminal ballistics a distant third.
That said, half the reason I exclusively use slugs for defense is simplicity and versatility. There are shots I haven't taken on deer because range was too great for ethical shots with buck. If I face a bad guy at close range, I'd still have to aim with buckshot, so I don't lose anything by going with slug. If I face a farther target, I can hit it without changing ammunition. During high stress situations, simple is good.
I do pay some attention to terminal ballistics, though, and have seen some results from buck that lead me to believe that slugs are a better choice for me. YMMV.
John
That said, half the reason I exclusively use slugs for defense is simplicity and versatility. There are shots I haven't taken on deer because range was too great for ethical shots with buck. If I face a bad guy at close range, I'd still have to aim with buckshot, so I don't lose anything by going with slug. If I face a farther target, I can hit it without changing ammunition. During high stress situations, simple is good.
I do pay some attention to terminal ballistics, though, and have seen some results from buck that lead me to believe that slugs are a better choice for me. YMMV.
John
mgkdrgn
Member
12 layers of wallboard? Oh yes I have.
Quote:
Slugs....over penetration to endanger the neighbors.
mgk, tell the truth- you haven't actually been reading this thread, have you?
Quote:
Slugs....over penetration to endanger the neighbors.
mgk, tell the truth- you haven't actually been reading this thread, have you?
rantingredneck
Member
Technically the term "over-penetration" assumes you have hit your target and the projectile overpenetrated and kept on going. 12 layers of wallboard in the "boxotruth" tests is without it first going through the BG. Handgun rounds do about the same thing in their tests, buckshot not much less.
Worry about missing the BG, not the slug overpenetrating
Any round that can be counted on to be effective against hostiles will also be effective against multiple layers of drywall. No free lunch.
Worry about missing the BG, not the slug overpenetrating
Any round that can be counted on to be effective against hostiles will also be effective against multiple layers of drywall. No free lunch.
You have mentioned a few times that you have a Daewoo in 5.56. I would look no farther for my primary defensive firearm. It will outperform any handgun round, and while it may not have as much "stopping power" with one shot as your 12 gauge, you have 29 mroe rounds that you can send downrange as quickly as you can pull the trigger. With a 12 gauge, you can pump them out pretty quick, but if you get in a hurry, you can also short stroke it and suddenly you arent firing.
There is a lot to be said for not having to do anything but squeeze the trigger during a time of stress.
Furthermore, based upon my own real-life experience (some intentional and some not) I would expect that the 5.56 rounds would be less dangerous to nearby suburban occupants after exiting your house. Those little projectiles are moving fast and when they hit something they tend to shatter. This is very nice for creating wound damage, and it is the same reason why the 5.56 sucks for shooting through barriers.
There is a lot to be said for not having to do anything but squeeze the trigger during a time of stress.
Furthermore, based upon my own real-life experience (some intentional and some not) I would expect that the 5.56 rounds would be less dangerous to nearby suburban occupants after exiting your house. Those little projectiles are moving fast and when they hit something they tend to shatter. This is very nice for creating wound damage, and it is the same reason why the 5.56 sucks for shooting through barriers.
JeepGeeek
member
you want to talk about overpenetration, the 5.56 is a great example!
JeepGeeek
member
I have shot stuff with it.
And it wasn't any cockamammie ballistic gel, or any other supposed "analog" for people.
It was people, in the performance of my duties as an Infantry soldier, using military ball.
No, I'm not proud of it, nor am I trying to be some sort of keyboard cowboy. Just saying that my first-hand experience with the round, at close range, says different than some of the supposed experts.
YMMV, price does not include recappable tire, etc. Don't believe the jello tests are some sort of gospel is all I'm saying.
Sorry, for my use, it's pistol and shotgun, with hollowpoints and #4,1,00 buck in that order. No slugs, but then I live in close proximity to other houses. If I lived in the country then yes, I'd have a slug available.
This said, I will still have slugs available, on the stock, for that one-in-a-million shot I might need to take. But I stress once again, it is my sincerest wish that I NEVER have to use any of my firearms. If I do, I'll be having a Very Bad Day.
And it wasn't any cockamammie ballistic gel, or any other supposed "analog" for people.
It was people, in the performance of my duties as an Infantry soldier, using military ball.
No, I'm not proud of it, nor am I trying to be some sort of keyboard cowboy. Just saying that my first-hand experience with the round, at close range, says different than some of the supposed experts.
YMMV, price does not include recappable tire, etc. Don't believe the jello tests are some sort of gospel is all I'm saying.
Sorry, for my use, it's pistol and shotgun, with hollowpoints and #4,1,00 buck in that order. No slugs, but then I live in close proximity to other houses. If I lived in the country then yes, I'd have a slug available.
This said, I will still have slugs available, on the stock, for that one-in-a-million shot I might need to take. But I stress once again, it is my sincerest wish that I NEVER have to use any of my firearms. If I do, I'll be having a Very Bad Day.
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