Thoughts on these new Sig military rifles?

[Bcwitt]

I think the whole concept is rediculus. What does it do that the 762n cannot? Every minor "benefit" of it eats up the safety margine of limiting the pressure threshold. Engineers @ Sig should read a few reloading manuels. The strength of the case is relative to the rigidity of the action. Steel cased ammo has been around a long time. I do not see the advantage vs the trades involved.

 

[CapnMac]

I think for a civilian today, it’s easy to assume that because my Amazon order gets here quick and accurately, that logistically in the 21st century, surely an extra caliber wouldn’t be THAT challenging to distribute where it’s needed through the existing supply chain.

And, that's a cogent observation.

And, as an individual consumer, it's easy to see things without perceiving the "pyramid" it represents. If I get an Amazon order, there are thousands of employees all working to get my one, singular order, to just my front door, which is a relatively fixed address. That's on a street, in a city, naer a highwya connecting to a cargo airline hub.

Unfix the address, and things are complicated. When it's some portion of the 150-200 in a Company, all the Companies in a Battalion, the Battalions in a Regiment, and so on. And, the logistics supply train requires logistics of its own, too.

 

[12Bravo20]

And to add on to what CapnMac stated. Each division has between 10,000 to 15,000 troops assigned to it. And each division is broke down into brigade combat teams which consist of companies from different battalions. And each Brigade will usually have 3-5 combat teams. Each company in a BCT must answer to the BCT and their individual battalions too.

I don't remember how the armor and infantry battalions were broke up for each BTC. I know back in the early 90's each Brigade assigned to the 1st Armor Div had 3 Brigade Combat Teams assigned to it. We had two infantry battalions, 1 armored battalion and one combat engineer battalion assigned to 2nd Brigade, 1ST AD.

I was in the combat engineer battalion and we had 3 line companies along with headquarters company. Each line company supported a single combined combat team. Each line company was further broke down to platoons supporting a separate combat team with the HQ platoon staying with the BCT HQ. The engineer battalion had to provide ammo and other supplies to each line company and then to each platoon with all of them spread out in different locations.

As you can see, logistics can be a real nightmare to get supplies down to the individual soldiers.

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

Besides, how would any of this further the inclusion of gender-fluid soldiers and drag queens into the military culture, which seems to be the chief mission these days

*climbs down from his soap box*

What information do you from the US Military that supports your statement in bold.

 

[entropy]

The US Army has the Army Diversity Office,
https://www.armydiversity.army.mil/ ,
and the Army Equity and Inclusion Agency,
https://www.army.mil/,
which are working toward such things, instead of concentrating on preparing for the next conflict, which should be the primary mission in between wars.
I'm sure the Dept. of the Navy and the Air Force have similar agencies.

 

[Hunter 08]

I think the whole concept is rediculus. What does it do that the 762n cannot? Every minor "benefit" of it eats up the safety margine of limiting the pressure threshold. Engineers @ Sig should read a few reloading manuels. The strength of the case is relative to the rigidity of the action. Steel cased ammo has been around a long time. I do not see the advantage vs the trades involved.

What 6.8x51mm does over the 7.62x51mm is have higher muzzle velocity out of a similar case length which can be beneficial, especially if penetrating body armor was their main goal. My main worry is, this ammo and 7.62x51mm share the same magazine, which was a main goal especially probably to help out with logistics. That whoever loads the magazines, could accidentally load the wrong round causing a catastrophic failure.

 

[Mosin77]

What 6.8x51mm does over the 7.62x51mm is have higher muzzle velocity out of a similar case length which can be beneficial, especially if penetrating body armor was their main goal. My main worry is, this ammo and 7.62x51mm share the same magazine, which was a main goal especially probably to help out with logistics. That whoever loads the magazines, could accidentally load the wrong round causing a catastrophic failure.

Would they, though?

I’m not generally a proponent of firing ammo in a gun that it’s not designed for, but (assuming they chamber and don’t just cause a jam, which might be more probable) a 7.62x51 in a robust gun designed for dramatically higher chamber pressure “might” be ok forcing itself down the 6.8mm barrel. At any rate 8mm Austrian rounds were fired from 7.62mm Mosins with no ill effects. But this is a problem for sure. That’s a lot of swaging. I hope the case was designed to make it impossible.

A hot 6.8 fired in a 7.62 barrel…. would probably just careen down the barrel at very low pressure with very poor accuracy.

Very interesting point. One hopes the hybrid case is so distinctive that this isn’t likely to happen.

 

[CapnMac]

And, to be fair to the title of this thread, I find the construction of the SIG SPEAR to be first rate.

I have few doubts that it's as good as similar milspec weapons. The ergonomics are decent, if not as handy as, say, a FAL. Mind the example I got to handle was not fitted with the milspec can on it, which might improve the balance a touch. The scope made me want an ACOG instead--the options and controls were as non-obvious as those on a VCR bought in a Lahore street market.

 

[21H40]

... The scope made me want an ACOG instead--the options and controls were as non-obvious as those on a VCR bought in a Lahore street market.

I have no doubt that both the weapons and the ammunition will be well made.

I'm not convinced that this solves a problem - though it might have been nice to have it in my vehicle's MG instead of the 50 cal. The M2 was great for a lot of things, but the ROE made us hesitant to use it outside of 100m.

 

[Hunter 08]

Would they, though?

I’m not generally a proponent of firing ammo in a gun that it’s not designed for, but (assuming they chamber and don’t just cause a jam, which might be more probable) a 7.62x51 in a robust gun designed for dramatically higher chamber pressure “might” be ok forcing itself down the 6.8mm barrel. At any rate 8mm Austrian rounds were fired from 7.62mm Mosins with no ill effects. But this is a problem for sure. That’s a lot of swaging. I hope the case was designed to make it impossible.

A hot 6.8 fired in a 7.62 barrel…. would probably just careen down the barrel at very low pressure with very poor accuracy.

Very interesting point. One hopes the hybrid case is so distinctive that this isn’t likely to happen.

I'd be more concerned with 7.62 being chambered in a 6.8 rifle. Bolt might not close all the way but could happen. Similar stuff happens when people chamber .300BLK in a 5.56 rifle. I'd hope the Armorer or whoever loads the magazines would be paying attention to make sure it doesn't happen. But mistakes can and do happen.

 

[Bcwitt]

What 6.8x51mm does over the 7.62x51mm is have higher muzzle velocity out of a similar case length which can be beneficial, especially if penetrating body armor was their main goal. My main worry is, this ammo and 7.62x51mm share the same magazine, which was a main goal especially probably to help out with logistics. That whoever loads the magazines, could accidentally load the wrong round causing a catastrophic failure.

How hard would it be to make a 762 loading that does effectively the same thing? I cant believe its worth it. One could easily come up w a 3000+ 762n @ a safe pressure.

 

[NUBIG10]

They look pretty BA to me, I saw Garand Thumb running them and looked fun.

 

[Hunter 08]

How hard would it be to make a 762 loading that does effectively the same thing? I cant believe its worth it. One could easily come up w a 3000+ 762n @ a safe pressure.

I'm sure it's possible using the existing brass dimensions (internal and external) without compromising safety. Someone should look in a few handloading books and see what can be realistically done.

 

[CapnMac]

I'd be more concerned with 7.62 being chambered in a 6.8 rifle

Dunno, the reverse is likely to be worse, getting a 80K 6.8x51 in a 7.62x51 chamber could be bad.