Titegroup and Power Pistol

[WrongHanded]

I read the OP yesterday, and thought about it for a while.

I'd use it. With Titegroup data. Though I might work my loads back up, and I'd try and mix the powder in the jug as best I could.

 

[ThomasT]

If you are so sure doing such thing is OK, why not try it yourself and get back to us?

And if you are unwilling to do it yourself, why would you suggest it to another member?

OK so here ya go. I had a small amount of AA #7 left over but not enough for more than about 20~25 rounds of 357 magnum loads. I poured the remaining #7 into a 3/4 pound of AA #5 and have loaded and fired several boxes of 357 light loads from it using data for AA #5 powder. So there ya go. Been there and done it. Satisfied?

 

[SCC]

I think the real problem was alluded to in Walkalong's last post: You can't predict the results.

Each powder, as it burns produces a unique set of combustion products. We don't know exactly what they are. One or more of the combustion products of powder A may act as an accelerant for powder B. This may even go both ways simultaneously. Or possibly a retardant effect may occur. The effects may be nonlinear and magnified by pressure, add .1 gr and boom. We simply have no way of knowing in advance. Yes, manufacturers blend powder for consistent burn rates across lot #s, but they are blending the SAME powder from different manufacturing runs keeping the chemistry constant.

 

[LiveLife]

I had a small amount of AA #7 left over but not enough for more than about 20~25 rounds of 357 magnum loads. I poured the remaining #7 into a 3/4 pound of AA #5 and have loaded and fired several boxes of 357 light loads from it using data for AA #5 powder. So there ya go. Been there and done it. Satisfied?

I don't think most of THR members would take that as acceptable as OP is asking about Power Pistol mixed with Titegroup.

If you have not mixed Power Pistol with Titegroup, I do not believe you can advise another member to do it.


And Walkalong posted this indicating we may not know what the result of mixing powders can produce

I had some leftover HS-6 and AA#5 (Much closer in burn rate to each other than TG & PP) and I mixed them in even proportions. I used starting data and the velocities I got were eye opening . I tossed it out and never again.

 

[ElGuero]

He mixed a tiny amount of a slower burning powder in a large container of faster burning powder and I suggested only using the data for the faster powder and starting low. And I offered to even buy the powder if he is just going to pour it out. Anyway no matter to me. I have said all I know to say to the OP.

Very gracious offer, Ratshooter, thank you.

I’m going to keep the contaminated Titegroup, and proceed cautiously. I’m an adult, and understand the subtleties of answering this type of question.

I appreciate all of the cautionary advice and assertions. I’m a biochemist by trade, but don’t know the specifics of gunpowder chemistry. So I understand the scientific method, but also feel inclined to color outside the lines, as it were. I’ll post any results.

To any new reloader that’s read this far, by far the best advice is to NOT use mixed powder, whether accidental or not. If you do, any results are yours to own, and any who encouraged you are not culpable.

 

[ThomasT]

One or more of the combustion products of powder A may act as an accelerant for powder B.

That was the purpose behind the duplex loads some were experimenting with some time back. I never read of a problem but then that was pre internet days so who knows. If the OP is not an experienced reloader then maybe using the powder is not for him. No matter to me.

 

[ElGuero]

That was the purpose behind the duplex loads some were experimenting with some time back. I never read of a problem but then that was pre internet days so who knows. If the OP is not an experienced reloader then maybe using the powder is not for him. No matter to me.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been loading for 10 years, jacketed, plated, cast, semi-auto, revolver, and rifle, in excess of 100k rounds. Never had a squib, a freakish over-pressure load, or any other anomaly.

As I said, I appreciate all of the feedback.

 

[ThomasT]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been loading for 10 years, jacketed, plated, cast, semi-auto, revolver, and rifle, in excess of 100k rounds. Never had a squib, a freakish over-pressure load, or any other anomaly.

Sounds to me like you know what you doing and what to watch for. If you load some rounds with this powder please post back your findings. I am sure everyone would like to know the results. If you don't post back I guess we will assume you blew yourself all to pieces and we will hear about it on the news.

 

[LiveLife]

To any new reloader that’s read this far, by far the best advice is to NOT use mixed powder, whether accidental or not. If you do, any results are yours to own, and any who encouraged you are not culpable.

Titegroup is known to burn hot and violent and many match shooters don't use it due to these qualities.

I was a Chemistry/BioChem major in college and I won't even attempt to make any educated guesses as to how Titegroup will burn in the presence of another powder type. If you choose to test Titegroup mixed with Power Pistol, I would definitely suggest using caution (You may even want to contact Hodgdon and get their opinion before testing)

If I were you, I would try vacuuming like the top one inch or so of powder from the container to remove Power Pistol and closely inspect to ensure no Power Pistol granules were left as they look different - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10094185

Picture shows Power Pistol to be small thin flakes (similar in size with Bullseye) with flat non-reflective surface

Titegroup has slightly larger irregular shape from flattening of ball powder base (like W231/HP-38/WSF) and has coated shiny surface

 

[ThomasT]

LiveLife thanks for posting those pictures. I tried to find online a picture of Power Pistol to see what size the flakes were. I wondered if he might be able to screen the powder and remove the PP from the TG. I looked at the TG I have on hand and its small. If the PP were as big as the Clays in the picture it might have worked. But it looks like PP and TG are about the same size.

 

[LiveLife]

I wondered if he might be able to screen the powder and remove the PP from the TG ... But it looks like PP and TG are about the same size.

Yes, Titegroup and Power Pistol are too close in size so screening won't work.

If Power Pistol was just poured on top of Titegroup, careful vacuuming could remove all the Power Pistol and some Titegroup to ensure all the Power Pistol granules were removed from Titegroup container.

 

[whughett]

Hypothetically, would you use it if it was Bullseye instead of Power Pistol, mixed in the same proportion to Titegroup?

I personally would not use any powder that was accidentally contaminated by mixing in another powder, regardless of the burn rate. I also won’t buy powder at gun shows or other sources that isn’t in a sealed original container. I even go so far as to double check , then check again that the powder measure is empty before adding powder to it when changing powders.

 

[ThomasT]

If Power Pistol was just poured on top of Titegroup, careful vacuuming could remove all the Power Pistol and some Titegroup to ensure all the Power Pistol granules were removed from Titegroup container.

You know whats funny? IIRC its in the Speer #10 manual that says if you spill powder on the floor DO NOT use a vacuum to get it up. Just goes to show there are many different opinions as there are people.

 

[LiveLife]

You know whats funny? IIRC its in the Speer #10 manual that says if you spill powder on the floor DO NOT use a vacuum to get it up.

Use shop vac type that places powder granules straight into the collection bin to avoid powder granules going through fan/motor mechanism.

If concerned about static electricity using shop vac type, suck up some water before vacuuming powder.

 

[ThomasT]

Use shop vac type that places powder granules straight into the collection bin to avoid powder granules going through fan/motor mechanism.

That sounds like the safe way to it to me. Especially if you have the filter paper tightly in place. It shouldn't take but a second or two to remove the top layer of powder. Hopefully he didn't shake the jug up.

 

[LiveLife]

added 3-4 ounces of Power Pistol to the wrong canister, which had 6+ pounds of Titegroup.

If most of 6 lbs of Titegroup could be saved, I will be happy.

 

[ElGuero]

Forgot to include: I messaged Hodgdon and asked for their guidance. No response yet.

 

[ThomasT]

Forgot to include: I messaged Hodgdon and asked for their guidance. No response yet.

They will tell you to dump the powder. There is no way they would ever say anything that might make them in any way liable if you had a blow up.

 

[frankmako]

hodgdon will tell you to not use any of it.

 

[sequins]

7lb of powder is a lot to toss but I'm far too anal to use contaminated powder. I take all sorts of notes on my loads and the powder is probably the most crucial component in a load. Half of the fun to me is generating data, and 7lb is thousands of "useless" rounds with no usable data resultant. My time is sufficiently valuable that I'd rather take the monetary hit than work up a load for a "powder" I'll never use again, god willing.

You may be able to work it and load some minimum rounds, but do you really want this in the back of your mind when you pull the trigger the next 5,000 times? I wouldn't.

What a bummer though all the same! Be safe, and if you load it try shooting with a chronograph and a string on the trigger

 

[Walkalong]

I had most of an 8 pounder of N-130 go bad at around the ten year mark, really sucked to toss it out. The N-133 I bought at the same time is 20+ years old now and just fine, go figure.

Mistakes happen, and sometimes they are costly. Been there done that, paid the piper.

Only the OP can decide how he wants to proceed.

 

[Jim Watson]

OP says 3-4 oz Power Pistol in 6-7 lb Titegroup. That is 3-4% of a slower powder contaminant.
I'd mix well and load it up. In .38s to be shot in a magnum revolver.

Mysterious chemical interaction? They are both smokeless powders composed of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. I don't see much scope for potentiation.