Titegroup powder in 9mm - Too hot?

[jell-dog]

Hi1
Looking for some guidance in using or not using Titegroup powder for my applications.

I have some Titegroup I am planning on using in 9mm.
The gun to be used is a Sig M11-A1 9mm, 4" barrel, standard recoil spring.
The bullets I have available are 124gr/125gr plated and jacketed and 147gr plated.
I will be shooting mostly target at the range, 150-200 rounds per visit.
I have a lot of manufacturer data for loads to reference and some of my own proven data for most of the powders that I have on hand.

So, I have researched using Titegroup in 9mm and have come across several comments that the "high flame temperature" of Tightgroup is hot, causing a heating up of the barrel and slide after 30 or so rounds in competition shooting where the stage requires 30 or more rounds to complete.

Also, have read comments that TG should not be used with lead or coated bullets because of the "high flame temperature" which causes leading in the barrel.

These concerns were not brought up in loading TG for 45acp using plated/jacket bullets anywhere from 185gr to 230gr.
I assume this is because the 45acp is a lower pressure cartridge than the 9mm?

So my question is, should I use TG for target pinking 9mm rounds or use another powder?


I have Fast burning pistol powders: (PER bds in THR Group Project - PISTOL - Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions Post #145)
Competition - AA#2 - Bullseye - TiteGroup - AA#5 - HP-38 (for 124gr/125gr plated and jacketed?)

I have Slow burning pistol powders: (PER bds in THR Group Project - PISTOL - Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions Post #145)
BE-86 - Power Pistol- CFE Pistol - Long Shot (for 147gr plated?)

Thank you!
JD

 

[Walkalong]

Some people love it in 9MM, and other things. I am not a fan. It is very dense and the small charges are hard to see in deep cases (Not an issue in 9MM). It has a high nitro content and burns hot. Ever hear the phrase "Titegroup stain"? It tends to scorch cases. The fans don't care and it tumbles clean, even though it takes longer to clean up. I prefer the bulky fast powders.

 

[ATLDave]

I know a lot of USPSA shooters who use it for their 9mm minor loads. Because it's a fast powder well suited to moderate-to-light recoil/PF loads, and because it is cheap. Often a little cheaper than AA#2 or ZIP, and quite a bit cheaper than VV N320.

If you're chasing velocity or "full power" 9mm, I don't see the appeal (versus the risks). If you're trying to shoot thousands of gamer-type rounds per month and on a tight budget... there you go.

 

[jell-dog]

Walkalong,
Thank you for your reply!
I am on the fence about using TG, I use a Lee Classic Turret with a Lee Autodrum powder measure and have a led light that shines down into the case.

I check every charge for 5 charges, then after there has been constant charges I check every 5th then every 10th.

I have used your advice to great advantage in the past, and I have enough faster powders to try without locking into TG.

Looking forward to all discussion on this subject

JD

 

[jell-dog]

I know a lot of USPSA shooters who use it for their 9mm minor loads. Because it's a fast powder well suited to moderate-to-light recoil/PF loads, and because it is cheap. Often a little cheaper than AA#2 or ZIP, and quite a bit cheaper than VV N320.

If you're chasing velocity or "full power" 9mm, I don't see the appeal (versus the risks). If you're trying to shoot thousands of gamer-type rounds per month and on a tight budget... there you go.

Thank you ATLDave for your comments!
I am looking for a moderate to light recoil round using 147gr plated bullets, punching paper for fun.
JD

 

[ATLDave]

I have seen many, many thousands of 147 grain plated (and/or polycoated) 9mm bullets go downrange over a charge of TG. Not from me; I use ZIP for light 9mm loads, and think that would serve you well and lack some of TG's alleged twitchiness, as well as being pretty easy to see in the case. But I've RO'ed a lot of shooters running just the combination you describe. Some of whom are the kind of shooters who literally wear guns out through use.

 

[redbullitt]

I would shoot it. If it makes you feel any better I have used faster powder for my 9mm plinkers...

It should do a fine job, but do some testing, and if you have to you can get a lighter recoil spring. THAT opens up new worlds for plinking loads lol.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I have used a lot of titegroup in 9mm 40sw and 45acp. Always mid or low end loads. It's versatile, economical and meters well. I can't say it is my favorite for any one cartridge.

 

[25-5]

I started using TG for .45 colt and .44 special. Also .45 ACP, .38 special, and .38 S&W, though I prefer W231 for these.
It does not damage brass and tumbles all shiny. I buy 8lbs at a crack. Liked it for years.
I use a Dillon and when the powder bar moves, you've got powder, so I don't have a need to inspect each case for powder.
Use some and see for yourself is the best advice.

 

[hdwhit]

If you look at Hodgdon's website, you will see that with 124/125 grain and 147 grain bullets, the spread between starting load and maximum load can be as narrow as 0.3 grains. That's a little bit less "wiggle room" than I am comfortable with.

If you've already bought the Titegroup, then by all means proceed with it - carefully. If you haven't bought the powder, I would suggest something like HS-6 or CFE Pistol which deliver comparable performance with a little bit more "wiggle room".

 

[earplug]

I'm working on a keg of Titegroup launching homemade 9mm powder coated bullets. Its been a fine propellent.

 

[thomas15]

As others have said, I know a lot of USPSA/Steel Challenge and IDPA shooters that use TG. It is my powder of choice for the kinds of loads the OP speaks of.

I have in my powder bunker at least 2 pounds of almost every shotgun or pistol powder (except Bullseye) from e3 to Autocomp/CFE Pistol. I use TG the most by far. I'm on track to shoot 8k through my handguns this year btw.

 

[otisrush]

I started loading pistol in the deep dark days of the powder shortages a few years ago. After many weeks of consistent searching the very first pistol powder I ever saw on the shelf ever was Titegroup. So I bought it.

It was after that when I started reading about the various concerns. My loading log shows I loaded 2,200 rounds of 9mm with Titegroup. These were almost exclusively 124gr FMJs.

I never had any issues with it whatsoever. But I abandoned its use before I used it all - simply because of the small min/max range as well as small case fill. I figured I had enough other things to worry about than that.

So from a pure performance standpoint it was just fine. I simply wanted to calm my brain down and not get too wigged out worrying about having that small of an acceptable load level.

OR

 

[vaalpens]

jell-dog, I have never used Titegroup, but found the premise of your thread interesting. So I thought this is an interesting topic and started looking at some load data. It has already been mentioned that Titegroup has a small range, but then I found some interesting Sierra load data.

For their 115gr loads they showed the velocity range from 1000fps to 1250fps, with Titegroup starting at 3.7gr and ending at 4.5gr reaching 1150fps. In their recap they listed Titegroup as the accuracy load of all the powders, using 4.2gr.

Under the 124/125gr loads, the data was interesting. The velocity range was from 900fps to 1150fps, but Titegroup was only listed from 1000fps to 1150fps with a min load of 3.7gr and a max load of 4.4gr.

So it is interesting that the starting 124gr load did not show a load for 900fps, and did not go lower than the starting 3.7gr in both 115gr and 124gr loads. The 115gr and 124gr range and loads were nearly the same. What that means, I have no idea but there is probably a reason for it.

Good luck with the new powder and be safe.

 

[Walkalong]

So it is interesting that the starting 124gr load did not show a load for 900fps,

My guess is 900 FPS jacketed load is getting close to not being able to guarantee the bullet always leaving the barrel, where a 1000 FPS load is more certain.

 

[Dudedog]

I would say try it if you have it. I used a lb I bought when not much else was available. It seemed to shoot ok for me in 9mm better in .45 but other powders shot better in both for me. I have heard it is spikey on the high side but never pushed it.
I used it with MBC uncoated lead bullets in 9mm (which is what I had at the time) I was using a Pro disk at the time and I recall using the .32 disk which gave me about 3.8 gr with a 125 lead cone. After I got something else I had 1/2 a jar sitting around for a while I used most of the rest up in .38 and .45.
I tried a load with 100gr Xtreme plated in 9mm 4.8gr.
Here are the vels
Xtreme 100 4.8 TITERGROUP 9MM
Velocity
1219
1234
1222
1226
1179
Note was shoots ok but CFE-P much better.

 

[vaalpens]

My guess is 900 FPS jacketed load is getting close to not being able to guarantee the bullet always leaving the barrel, where a 1000 FPS load is more certain.

Walkalong, that was my guess also, but there are other fast powders listed with 900fps and 950fps loads. This is a capture from the Sierra load data with Titegroup starting at 1000fps. This made me wonder if it is a velocity issue, or a powder charge below 3.7gr issue since all these loads are for the same bullets.

 

[9mmepiphany]

When I first started shooting 9mm in IDPA I tried Titegroup because it was what "everyone " was using...I bought an 8lb jug. I think everyone was using 4.0grs under a 124gr plated bullet to make about 1050fps.

While it metered very nicely, it's darker color reduced visibility in the case compared to WST/WSF. It did seem to burn "hotter", was snappy, and left scorching on the ejected cases. The thing that made me shy away from it was the narrow range of usability.

I loaded 600-800 rounds before selling it to another competitor, who was happy to get it.

Im currently pretty happy using WST, BE-86 and 231 when I load 9mm.

 

[gonoles_1980]

I use titegroup in my wife's 9mm and her 44spl loads to shoot from my 44 mag. For the 9mm I use 3.9gr titegroup, xtreme copper plated FP, 124gr, 1.084 OAL. My wife hasn't complained about the recoils. She shoots a Ruger LC9

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong, that was my guess also, but there are other fast powders listed with 900fps and 950fps loads. This is a capture from the Sierra load data with Titegroup starting at 1000fps. This made me wonder if it is a velocity issue, or a powder charge below 3.7gr issue since all these loads are for the same bullets.

Dunno, but when they leave it out at that FPS while others are listed, it's even more of a red light for me. Perhaps it was too erratic at that power level Big ES) with that weight bullet to be reliable. (Get out of the barrel all the time)

 

[boom boom]

I have used Titegroup for 9mm and been fairly happy with it but I stick to starting loads without pushing it. Like most versatile powders, Titegroup has its advantages and disadvantages--don't like its apparent non-linearity on the pressure curve (hence the narrow range) in some applications but in its groove--it burns clean, is pretty cheap, and has wide applicability to various pistol rounds. I've had pretty good luck with it for mild .357 loads for example and have not had a problem with 9mm applications using FMJ bullets.

 

[sbwaters]

Started with TiteGroup for my 124-125 gr. and switched to Ramshot Silhouette. Very happy with accuracy, meters sweetly, and happier to have the case easier to visually check.

 

[tcoz]

Like many others, I used Titegroup for awhile when powders were scarce and it was all I could find but I was never comfortable with it because of the narrow range between min and max loads.
As soon as HP38 became available I bought a bunch and haven't looked back.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

Concerns over the narrow range for charge weight are valid. To it's advantage, tite group meters extremely well. Some flake powders have a wider range and they need it because they meter poorly.
A little off topic; the VihtaVouri powders I've used are the best of everything, except for the cost.

 

[Walkalong]

Some flake powders have a wider range and they need it because they meter poorly.

Some do, true, but some are smaller flakes and meter well. Then there are the two near twins, W-231 & Zip, flattened ball powders that meter well and have a wide working range. Bullseye is another fast powder that meters great. 700 X is one of the big flake powders, and it is true it doesn't meter great, but it doesn't show on target.