To All Vegetarians.......

[Speedo66]

Np doubt early man was an omnivore, but I wonder how successful they were in daily hunting? I have a feeling they ate lots more vegetation than meat, although they could process both.

We know there are a lot more deer in the US today than there were when Christopher arrived.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I had a lot of the same problems as @Buzznrose I’m not vegetarian or vegan. Probably paleo is the closest I am to a fad diet.

What lowered my blood pressure and triglycerides and cholesterol and eased the pain in my joints was weight lifting. I eat tons of eggs and dairy and meat. Tons of whole foods and tons of vegetables. Not many fruits though. Really only apples, bananas and blueberries. I strength train 3-4 days a week and do HIIT cardio as well as steady state in the same week.

My BP went from 141 to 122. Triglycerides and HDL went way down. No more back and shoulder pain or plantar fasciitis.

This is just another way to get healthy.

 

[George P]

Let's put it this way: very, very few people in the whole history of mankind have become obese or even fat by eating meat. Sugars, especially processed ones, are a whole different story.

+1!
The sugar industry is a powerful one and that one item is responsible for more health ills in this country than any other single item.

 

[Slamfire]

That said, I bet more people get sick from eating at a salad bar than from eating fried meats.

Damn near died from spinach off a salad bar. At a high end restaurant. They must have purchased this expensive, organic spinach. Vomiting, diarrhea, very bad dehydration because I could not keep water down. The statistics say 3 died and 31 lost their kidneys, I will say that is probably low. I did not specifically know what got me till reading about it weeks later. And I am not one of the people in the statistics because I did not call the CDC. There were probably a bunch of people who died and no one had any idea it was due to contaminated spinach.

Fresh greens and vegetables are a risk. There is a good reason cave man cooked his food, including meats. Heat kills pathogens. Cook your veggy's, cook your meat.

You don't want predators to get sick after eating, do you?

 

[entropy]

I had a lot of the same problems as @Buzznrose I’m not vegetarian or vegan. Probably paleo is the closest I am to a fad diet.

What lowered my blood pressure and triglycerides and cholesterol and eased the pain in my joints was weight lifting. I eat tons of eggs and dairy and meat. Tons of whole foods and tons of vegetables. Not many fruits though. Really only apples, bananas and blueberries. I strength train 3-4 days a week and do HIIT cardio as well as steady state in the same week.

My BP went from 141 to 122. Triglycerides and HDL went way down. No more back and shoulder pain or plantar fasciitis.

This is just another way to get healthy.

I did the same for two years, then SWMBO started complaining about the time I spent at the gym. So I've spent the last two years sitting at the computer posting on THR.... Seriously, I missed the workouts, (still use dumbbells at home,but not the same) and found out I could get a gym membership through work for her and I for what mine was alone before. Signed us both up, she said she'd be interested, we'll see how that goes....

 

[Arkansas Paul]

There was a guy who thought it very funny to say "vegetarian" was an old Indian word for bad hunter. That was before he found out how much stuff I killed.

I've never heard of a vegetarian hunter before. I just never thought about it. I don't know why it surprised me. lol

My wife could be a vegetarian. She almost never eats red meat and only chicken and turkey a couple times a week probably. She could very easily give it up and not miss it much.
While I love meat, I do need to tweak my diet and get it more balanced.

 

[whughett]

This is misinformation. There’s not much debate in the scientific community about whether humans are omnivores. We are.

Individual diets are another matter. Because humans are omnivores we can subsist on a range of foods. Some are healthier than others. Blanket statements that “meat is bad for you” is unscientific at best.

Bears, Pigs and Man. Any connection.

Edit: And I think chickens also.

 

[hq]

I have a feeling they ate lots more vegetation than meat, although they could process both.

Vegetables are easily accessible, more often than not abundant hence a great means of survival. Meat is high-nutrient food. A mammal that can digest both has a substantial evolutionary advantage over herbivores and carnivores.

 

[whughett]

From what little I remember from school, it was the last century after all, Humans were hunters and gatherers and there fore nomadic, it was only after they learned to domesticate animals and plant crops that they became stationary.

Crops are seasonal and difficult to store, animals are food in their own spoil proof containers ready to use year round.

Vegans and Vegetarians are a modern concept made possible by high speed transportation and storage of food stuffs from around the world. They would have a had a hard go generations past.

 

[Buzznrose]

This is misinformation. There’s not much debate in the scientific community about whether humans are omnivores. We are.

Individual diets are another matter. Because humans are omnivores we can subsist on a range of foods. Some are healthier than others. Blanket statements that “meat is bad for you” is unscientific at best.

Don’t confuse preference with facts.

Humans are omnivores by choice. But we are plant eaters by our anatomical design.

Your teeth are much more like a cow or horse than a dog or cat.

your brain runs on glucose, which is by far more readily available from plants than meat.

you can actually die on a diet of just meat. Without vitamin C, you will develop scurvy. You won’t develop any real health issues on a diet of just plants.

Your digestive system is 15 times your body length and designed to process vegetable materials. Without enough fiber, eating a diet high in animal protein and fats, you will likely develop problems like colon cancer, leaky gut, and other issues due to the length of your digestive track. True carnivores have digestive tracks 5 times their body length.

 

[hq]

Humans are omnivores by choice. But we are plant eaters by our anatomical design.
Your teeth are much more like a cow or horse than a dog or cat.
your brain runs on glucose, which is by far more readily available from plants than meat.

Not trying to start a debate, because there really is none, but neither cow, horse or any other herbivore has canine teeth human has, and metabolism converts energy content of any food to glucose, eventually. In terms of stabilizing blood sugar (glucose) level, ie. preventing spikes that result in fat buildup and rapid falls that induce anxiety, animal proteins are by far the best single food substance. Pure glucose and fructose are the worst.

I still don't know why I spent several months of my college years just completing the courses on nutritional sciences because I couldn't really care less at the time, but now that vegetables vs. meat discussion has been saturated with oversimplified beliefs, it has come surprisingly handy.

 

[Buzznrose]

From what little I remember from school, it was the last century after all, Humans were hunters and gatherers and there fore nomadic, it was only after they learned to domesticate animals and plant crops that they became stationary.

true, our early ancestors ate both plants and animals, but they also had much stronger immune systems and gut acid and bacteria than most people have today.

Archeological investigations historically revealed a lot of animal bones and primitive tools associated with eating meat. This is true, and largely formed the hypothesis that early humans were mainly meat eaters.

But advances in technology used to examine dig sites are finding a lot of microscopic evidence of plant matter residue. The fact that there wasn’t much plant residue makes sense, as plants break down much faster and leave little residue since they are mostly consumed, unlike animal hides and bones that are not.

Plants were much more widely available than meat, for even hunter gatherers, until domestic animal farming came about.

Again, eat whatever you want. But if you have or are worried about heart disease, ED, dementia, chronic gut issues, etc, and you want the best chance to reduce and eliminate them and heal your body, you eliminate animal products and processed foods and eat a whole food, plant based diet.

This is proven.

Got high cholesterol or triglycerides? You don’t need to take my word for this. Stop eating animal products for a week and get tested. You will see your numbers change a lot if you are sincere and eat just plants.

 

[hq]

But if you have or are worried about[SNIP]

Please. Really. I don't have anything against people choosing their own diets or even encouraging others to follow suit, but misinformation derived from intentionally misinterpreted, decades old studies that have been proven to have blatantly thrown causality out the window is a bit much, now. Fibers are great and useful to human digestion, but otherwise my professional opinion is to mainly refrain from a plant-biased diet, for health reasons. Fructose being the proven main culprit, not to mention the utter inefficiency of human metabolism to digest plant-based aminoacids.

The best option, given the choice? Strict cannibalism. But officially and ethically that's obviously way out of line.

 

[Buzznrose]

Not trying to start a debate, because there really is none, but neither cow, horse or any other herbivore has canine teeth human has, and metabolism converts energy content of any food to glucose, eventually. In terms of stabilizing blood sugar (glucose) level, ie. preventing spikes that result in fat buildup and rapid falls that induce anxiety, animal proteins are by far the best single food substance. Pure glucose and fructose are the worst.

You have 4 minor canine teeth. Gorillas have some big canine teeth they use to fight other gorillas and whatever else. Every other tooth in your head is designed to bite into a piece of fruit or grind plant matter to mush.

as far as sugar in your blood, the reason people develop diabetes and have high concentrations of sugar is because the endothelial cells that line the artery walls are damaged and/or covered with cholesterol and the glucose cannot get through the arterial walls and into the body for energy as designed, which concentrates the sugar in your blood.

Look, I’m out. I’m not going to argue every false fact. If folks want info on this, check out the documentaries I mentioned earlier or, I’d really serious, read The China Study.

Or PM me. I’ll be glad to point you to where I learned how to greatly improve my health and eliminate the medications I was taking.

I know this is for real. And I LOVE eating meat. But I love feeling and being healthy more. But honestly, that Way of thinking took a long time and didn’t come easy!

 

[wankerjake]

Don’t confuse preference with facts.

Humans are omnivores by choice. But we are plant eaters by our anatomical design.

Your teeth are much more like a cow or horse than a dog or cat.

your brain runs on glucose, which is by far more readily available from plants than meat.

you can actually die on a diet of just meat. Without vitamin C, you will develop scurvy. You won’t develop any real health issues on a diet of just plants.

Your digestive system is 15 times your body length and designed to process vegetable materials. Without enough fiber, eating a diet high in animal protein and fats, you will likely develop problems like colon cancer, leaky gut, and other issues due to the length of your digestive track. True carnivores have digestive tracks 5 times their body length.

Actually this is all backwards. Humans are omnivores be design; a specific diet is a choice. The anatomy of humans allows the species to successfully eat a variety of foods, and go long periods of time without eating certain foods. For humans (and other omnivores) plants AND animals are acceptable sources of macro-nutrients and micro-nutrients.We can handle both. Our anatomy AND physiology allows for this.This is what makes humans omnivorous, not the conscious choice of deciding to follow a certain diet that cuts out one or the other.

Regarding the rest of that, vitamins, glucose, carnivores... I don't think anyone here is arguing that humans are carnivores. There is clear evidence to the contrary. We are omnivores. Very different definition.

Also carnivores don't just eat meat, they eat the whole animal which is much more complete nutrition than just muscle. The anatomy and physiology of a carnivore allows them to do this. I'm not sure anything can live on just consuming muscle, even carnivores. Arguing that humans are strict carnivores by design would be just as faulty as saying we are strict herbivores by design. This is clearly not the case anatomically, physiologically, historically or culturally.

 

[hq]

Or PM me. I’ll be glad to point you to where I learned how to greatly improve my health and eliminate the medications I was taking.

Thank you for the offer. Unless there are a sufficient sample size plus a control group in a clinically controlled environment, unfortunately I'm under oath and ACCET/BBS guidelines to adhere strictly to objective, verifiable and repeatable findings and exercise prejudice to subjective statements. Not that I wouldn't believe that you actually think your subjective experiences are real, and if you actually feel they've helped you, congratulations and all the best.

 

[wankerjake]

I know this is for real. And I LOVE eating meat. But I love feeling and being healthy more. But honestly, that Way of thinking took a long time and didn’t come easy!

Gotta say, then it's a damn shame you've misinterpreted the overwhelming evidence that suggests humans can and have subsisted and sustained healthy populations on omnivorous diets that include meat. You can both have your health AND eat some meat big guy. I respect your freedom not to of course.

 

[mustanger98]

Np doubt early man was an omnivore, but I wonder how successful they were in daily hunting? I have a feeling they ate lots more vegetation than meat, although they could process both.

We know there are a lot more deer in the US today than there were when Christopher arrived.

Hence the term hunter-gatherer, as the precursor to agrarians who raised livestock and hunted.

 

[whughett]

In pre modern arctic zones how much plant material would the natives in those regions have available.

 

[hq]

In pre modern arctic zones how much plant material would the natives in those regions have available.

Well... back in 1900's and 1910's when my dad experienced the imperial Russian unrest first hand, my grandparents resorted to making bread out of pine bark. Hidous, I've been told, but they survived. It's nothing short of amazing what can be used as food in an emergency.

 

[wankerjake]

In pre modern arctic zones how much plant material would the natives in those regions have available.

Whatever was in the stomach content of the animals they hunted, was one place. Plains Indians did this. Eating raw organs and intestines stomach and stomach content helped combat things like scurvy, which they didn’t have. Subsisting greatly (but not only) on animals

 

[Buzznrose]

Gotta say, then it's a damn shame you've misinterpreted the overwhelming evidence that suggests humans can and have subsisted and sustained healthy populations on omnivorous diets that include meat.

Current health trends are NOT good for populations who have recently transitioned to a “western style” (lots of meat and dairy) diet. China and many Asian countries are prime examples of skyrocketing numbers of people with heart disease and cancers that were unheard of 60 years ago when meat was a flavoring and meals were mostly starches and vegetables.

we as a Nation are not getting healthier in spite of the billions of dollars spent annually on health care and research. I believe the dirty secret is that big pharma wants to keep us all sick and buying chems that ease symptoms while the causes and disease continues.

I agree it’s not JUST food. Exercise plays a part for sure, as does sleep, meditation/prayer, and social interaction. Research ‘Blue Zones’ which are pockets of populations where folks live 10-15 years longer than average with much less chronic illness. We even have one in the US, Lima Linda, CA

https://www.nextavenue.org/oldest-people-americas-blue-zone-make-their-money-last/

“Technically, Loma Linda itself isn’t the real Blue Zone. It gets that label because about a third of its 24,196 residents are part of a close-knit community that values physical and mental habits helping them live long, healthy, vibrant lives. They are Seventh Day Adventists; more than 250 members of its church on the Loma Linda University campus are 90 or older; another 425 are 80 to 89. Members of that Protestant denomination typically don’t drink alcohol or smoke; they’re frequently vegan and favor nuts and they’re often energetic, upbeat and social.”

I was listening to a podcast on brain health (dementia is a problem near and dear to me) and the neurologist on the show used to practice and do research in that town in CA. Loma Linda has a large vegan population, but after having 3000 patients, he found that less than 10 individuals were vegan. In fact, upon studying populations of people dealing with dementia and Alzheimer’s, he discovered less than 3% of people who eat plant based develop these disorders, and the ones who do have a rare gene that triggers it.

The occurrence of these diseases on our poorer populations that consume a diet high in meats, fat, sugar, and processed foods are having up to 50% of their aging population showing signs of dementia and brain deterioration.

Our western diet is not creating a healthy population...

 

[Buzznrose]

Thank you for the offer. Unless there are a sufficient sample size plus a control group in a clinically controlled environment, unfortunately I'm under oath and ACCET/BBS guidelines to adhere strictly to objective, verifiable and repeatable findings and exercise prejudice to subjective statements. Not that I wouldn't believe that you actually think your subjective experiences are real, and if you actually feel they've helped you, congratulations and all the best.

How about the largest study of nutrition on a population by a Cornell University research scientist and doctor:

https://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660

Now there are a lot of folks who have attacked this book, but none that I know have anywhere near the credentials of the author, Dr. Colin Campbell (who grew up on a dairy farm in NY) and since switching to a plant based diet after his research (1990) in China over many years, is still very much alive and active at 85.

Just like the “scientific data” that told us smoking cigarettes didn’t harm us in the 1950’s, I don’t believe the current studies funded by the meat, dairy, and egg producers or big pharma that profits greatly from keeping us demanding their products.

okay...best wishes to you all. I’m done boring you...

 

[readyeddy]

Well, since this is the hunting forum, I'll say that there are three popular diets that agree that wild game are healthy to eat.

Lectin free, paleo and keto diets mostly say the same thing, and wild game and wild caught fish are recommended.

 

[wankerjake]

Saying the average American’s diet, which is generally a caloric surplus laden with refined sugar and starch and fat is not the healthiest diet in existence, will be debated by nobody.

The fact that humans can sustain a breeding population on this perverse diet is literal proof that we are biologically omnivorous.

I'm not debating the merits of different types of diets. There are actually quite a lot of healthy ways to eat that range in animal content from low to high.

Th scientific evidence that human anatomy, physiology, biology, history and culture supports an omnivorous diet is solid. Saying that the average American diet is unhealthy as a rule and as compared to other diets is sound. Blaming the ill effects of that diet solely on meat consumption while not addressing sugar and refined and processed foods and caloric surplus and sedentary living and a whole host of other things is base.