To correct or not to correct?

[outdoorsman1]

I totally agree with that 4 rules shoould be discussed, and as you have already made the decision what to say, I will leave that alone but...

Based on his responce to your using humor to make a point, if given another oppoertunity by his responce, I would let him know in no uncertain terms (not humor), that the ONLY time a finger should be on the trigger is seconds before the firearm is actually fired. Pictures, videos, whatever, the finger has no reason to be on the trigger. As far as his reply of the empty clip (Mag.), I do not own that type of firearm (yet) so please forgive my ignorance, but as in a semi-auto handgun, could not the Mag. be empty with a round still in the chamber...??? If yes, then that would be a good comeback to his next responce.... Bottom line, firearm handling is a SERIOUS business and any part of it taken lightly could get someone killed....

Outdoorsman1

Edited to add:...

Skribs said...

Snip..

There's a difference between holding a weapon like that for everyday use and holding a weapon like that for a photo.

I disagree, any weapon should "be held" in an identical way no matter why the weapon is being held....

Just Sayin....

 

[ErikO]

When the bolt is in the receiver, the gun is loaded.

 

[Ringolevio]

Proper nomenclature

My dad and uncles, when speaking of their experiences in WW2, seemed to always refer to their sidearms as loading with a "clip". But then they also referred to the sidearm itself as a ".45 Automatic".

Nowadays, however, we make the distinction between "automatic" and "semi-automatic", and we refer to that particular handgun design as a 1911. Similarly, we distinguish between a magazine and a clip, just as we distinguish between bullets and cartridges.

Using proper nomenclature is one more way of exhibiting one's mastery of a subject or a skillset. So, among the ways that serious pistoleros and fusileros can be distinguished from the tyros are: calling a magazine a magazine, indexing and observing muzzle discipline.

I've all but given up on correcting others' sloppiness in spoken and written English (except of course in my role as a proofreader and editor), even though I often find such errors extremely irksome. But, unlike with firearms, carelessness and ignorance in speech and writing are not matters of life and death.

 

[Ranger30-06]

Besides that, unloaded guns are the most dangerous ones. People slip into a sense of relaxation and this is when the ND's strike most.

 

[mljdeckard]

When my friends post shooting pics, I pretty much always either remind them of which of the four rules they are breaking or thank them for being safe.

 

[Skribs]

I disagree, any weapon should "be held" in an identical way no matter why the weapon is being held....

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.

 

[Ranger30-06]

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.

"I checked" isn't an excuse for stupidity, especially around other people.

Hollywood is Hollywood, and we all know that 3/4 of them know next to nothing about gun safety to begin with. That also is no excuse for something as simple as keeping your finger off of the trigger.

 

[outdoorsman1]

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.

Oh.. you mean like this

www.thecrow.info/accident.htm

Outdoorsman1

 

[mortablunt]

Definitely correct him on three things.

#1: Watch where that gun is pointing...
#2: Fingers away from triggers.
#3: It's called a magazine!

 

[StrutStopper]

You could post a video clip of the famous "I'm the only one qualified" video of the DEA agent shooting himself with an unloaded gun in front of a class full of kids...

 

[BullfrogKen]

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.

Yes, I do. I think Hollywood is a destructive force in many different ways, and when I see poor, sloppy, unsafe, or stupid gun handling in a movie I notice it. My wife does, too. And depending on the context I probably won't like it.


But I don't care what pop culture thinks, and the whole image thing.


Want to impress me? Take a picture holding the rifle in a safe manner, displaying some safe gun handling. Unless you're doing some marketing work that requires pointing guns at people with fingers on the trigger, I have no tolerance for it in photographs. It doesn't look bad-ass. It doesn't look cool.



The coolest pictures I saw were of a couple SEAL teams taken over the years, hanging on the walls of a bed-and-breakfast in the middle of Nowhere, central Virginia. The Teams rented the property and outbuildings, stayed there and did land nav and E&E in the mountains for a few weeks. The group pictures had the guys holding all manner of exotic weaponry. No magazines in the weapons. No fingers on triggers. Everything pointed in a safe direction.


Those were cool pictures.


Guys posturing and posting that stuff on their Facebook pages. I'm not impressed. I've seen plenty of firearms, and bragging to show me what you spent your money on does nothing for me. While I don't go looking for an argument if you direct my attention to it, I'll comment on the gun handling you decided to show off, good or bad.

Impress me with pictures of your targets, your match results, and showing some safe gun handling when you snap a picture showing what you used to post some good scores.

 

[Skribs]

"I checked" isn't an excuse for stupidity, especially around other people.

If the gun actually was loaded, it's stupid. If the gun is not loaded, it is temporarily suspending one of the redundant safety rules for the sake of art.

Yes, I do. I think Hollywood is a destructive force in many different ways, and when I see poor, sloppy, unsafe, or stupid gun handling in a movie I notice it.

I'm not even referring to this. What I am referring to is a suspenseful shot where the bad guy puts a gun up to the good guy's head. In the context of reality, these guys probably get along, and so in no way would the actor playing the bad guy point a gun at the other actor in any other environment. However, for the sake of the action shot, he has to. Other safety precautions are followed, but he is still pointing a firearm at his buddy.

The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?

 

[The-Reaver]

Yeah go ahead and correct him.
You should treat every firearm as if it where loaded no matter what.
And finger off the trigger until your ready to engage.

 

[outdoorsman1]

If the gun actually was loaded, it's stupid. If the gun is not loaded, it is temporarily suspending one of the redundant safety rules for the sake of art.



I'm not even referring to this. What I am referring to is a suspenseful shot where the bad guy puts a gun up to the good guy's head. In the context of reality, these guys probably get along, and so in no way would the actor playing the bad guy point a gun at the other actor in any other environment. However, for the sake of the action shot, he has to. Other safety precautions are followed, but he is still pointing a firearm at his buddy.

The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?

Snip..

If the gun actually was loaded, it's stupid. If the gun is not loaded, it is temporarily suspending one of the redundant safety rules for the sake of art.

WOW... how do I say this nicely....your thoughts on this is really scary.. If you feel this way then maybe you should re-think handling firearms around other people...

Snip

The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?

A single tragedy is still a tragedy.. and by insinuating that it is ok to handle a firearm in an unsafe manner simply because a "tragedy does not "happen" "often" just reinforce's my feeling above + 1000....

Like I said... WOW...

Ok, I have said what I needed to say, so I will finish by also saying...

Just Sayin...

Outdoorsman1

 

[BullfrogKen]

The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?

How often does it need to happen?

Negligent discharges do happen. I've seen them with happen with my own eyes. Sometimes no one gets hurt. Occasionally an injury occurs. And rarely someone dies.

But negligent discharges are too damn common. Suggesting that, well, you know, since deaths don't happen all that often , it's ok to do stupid things once in a while . . . that's a very reckless mindset to have.

for the sake of art

Pictures on Facebook and social media are now art? Get serious.


Actors using guns on television are not using live guns. Those are stage guns. Prop guns.

Besides, what do I care about the images Hollywood portrays with guns? I've found very few movies that portray gun ownership in a positive light, anyway. I care more about that than whether their movies portray safe gun handling in them.


I do care about what real people do with real guns. Especially when I or anyone I care about is nearby.

If I see someone I know goofing around and post a stupid "posture-picture" up on his Facebook page, you better believe when I see him out on the range I'll be paying extra attention to how he handles his guns while he's there. And we've got no problem kicking someone out of a match who can't seem to apply the Four Rules.

 

[Skribs]

Some movies use stage guns, some use live guns with stage ammo. That is what happened in The Crow - the gun had real bullets instead of blanks. What matters to me is that in thousands of movies where guns are used, pointed at other people, and have the trigger pulled (either with blanks, or just an empty chamber and CGI reports added in after), there is only one occurance to my knowledge of this happening, where an AD occured and the person was shot. However, in those movies, the ACTORS were using "unsafe" methods to portray what you would really do - point the weapon at your enemy.

If you have read about The Crow tragedy, as I have, you will read how strict the guidelines are for securing firearms that are being used in movies, and how inconceviable it is that the actor was shot. So yes, you can still be safe while ignoring 1 rule. That's because gun safety isn't about the rules, it's about using your brain to prevent an ND. The reason there is a rule against putting your finger in the trigger guard is to prevent a twitch, fall, etc. from pulling the trigger. However, if the gun is empty (which could have been verified seconds ago), and you are standing still - then an accidently pull is unlikely, and an AD in that scenario is impossible.

Pictures on Facebook and social media are now art? Get serious.

It may not be picasso or de vinci, but it is art in the way a painted portrait of yourself in 1780 was art. It is a moment of your life frozen in time, and the person wants to add the drama of the finger on the trigger. It is a statement that he has a weapon and is willing to pull the trigger.

If you feel this way then maybe you should re-think handling firearms around other people...

I have never had an AD/ND. I make sure I know whether a firearm is loaded when it is handed to me, and treat it accordingly. Since all my firearms are always loaded, it's pretty easy for me. However, after unloading a firearm and verifying that it is unloaded, I do understand that no fairies or leprachauns snuck a bullet into the chamber while it was still in my hand.

I understand the rules, and I know why they exist. I'm also smart enough to know when I'm being safe and when I'm being paranoid.

 

[outdoorsman1]

Skribs said...

That's because gun safety isn't about the rules, it's about using your brain to prevent an ND. The reason there is a rule against putting your finger in the trigger guard is to prevent a twitch, fall, etc. from pulling the trigger.

So yes, you can still be safe while ignoring 1 rule.

Also said..

I understand the rules, and I know why they exist.

Seems kinda contradicting to me....

Also said...

I'm also smart enough to know when I'm being safe and when I'm being paranoid.

Ok... good for you... but... If being "paranoid" keeps me "safe" (ALIVE) then I guess I will go with "paranoid"...

I can see that we disagree on these issues aand no matter what either one of us says, neither are going to change there minds so I guess all I have left to say is... Good Luck with your way of thinking... and...don't take just my word for it.. maybe read some of the other posts regarding your past statements... I know, I know, you have already read them....

Finally, GUN SAFTEY IS ABOUT THE RULES.....

Nuff said...

Outdoorsman1

 

[Skribs]

Gun safety is about preventing ADs/NDs, and preventing those shots which are taken from hitting targets you did not intend to hit. How many people will say "get a good holster if you're going to carry a handgun"? Guess what - it's NOT a rule, but the #1 reason I see reported as being the cause of an AD/ND is a lack of a holster, or problems with the shirt/strap when holstering a gun.

So, if "gun safety is about the rules" is true, then how do you explain people who follow the "4 rules" but have NDs for other reasons?

Similarly, one of the recommended methods of practicing on a revolver is to put in snap caps and dry fire in your home. Not only do you put your finger in the trigger guard without intending to fire, you pull the trigger! How is assuming there is a snap cap any different from assuming the chamber is empty? It isn't. And yes - people have had NDs assuming they have snap caps in their gun.

So, I intend to not fire my revolver with snap caps in, but I do put my finger in the guard. Am I breaking a rule? No, because I expect there to be a plastic dud. Similarly, while posing for a picture, someone may have just done a chamber check and KNOW that the chamber is empty. Therefore, even if they are not preparing to fire - they are ready for the hammer to fall on an empty chamber.

Note that I am not advocating walking around every day with your finger in the guard. I am just saying that for the sake of a picture, with an empty gun, you can easily put your finger in the guard for 3 seconds, snap the photo, and go about your day safely.

Back to the OP, you have a snapshot of what the person did. You do not know whether or not he checked the weapon, or how he normally holds it when is not POSING. You pose for pictures differently than you would actually hold yourself in most situations. If you start asking questions, he's going to get defensive and upset. If you attack him, seriously or smart-alecky, he's going to get upset. You might feel high and mighty about your safety smarts, but the real goal, if you want to make sure he follows your safety rules, isn't going to be accomplished. If you do this publicly, it also makes you look like a jerk, and makes gun nuts look like "rule nazis".

If you really think he's being unsafe and want to see what he's like with a gun outside of a picture, spend some time with him and see. At that point, you can bring up your concerns. But a fight on facebook isn't going to win you any friends, and it's going to make you look like an elitist. People aren't going to want to talk guns with you for fear of being overcorrected ("OMG its a magazine, not a clip"), and RKBA suffers.

Yes, preventing AD/ND is good for RKBA, because it presents us as aware of the dangers of firearms and firearms as having the potential to be safe in the right hands. But it's bad for RKBA if you don't do it with tact - because then you just push people away.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Master of the Rules vs. Mastered by the Rules

Look, there are times when we will knowingly break the rules. And when it is appropriate I am OK with that.


There is a difference between being Mastered by the Rules and being a Master of the Rules.


During Force on Force training, we use guns with Simunitions rounds. There is a risk, and people have died when someone thought a gun still had Sim rounds and used it. But good FoF controls have a protocol that will make the risk negligible. When you decide to knowingly break the Rules, you do it for a good damn reason. In fact, when we've done it, we had protocols that were almost ceremonial in the ridigity of the process.


I think I'm just going to have to disagree over when it's OK to break a rule, and when it's not. Odds are, I'd wager the guy in the OP's photo doesn't have Rule 3 ingrained as a habit anyway. But either way I'm not into doing nonsense like that just for a MyFace picture.

I can see that we disagree on these issues and no matter what either one of us says, neither are going to change there minds

I'm in agreement.

I guess someone can do whatever he wants in his own home, when I'm not nearby. But I have no tolerance for displaying a lackadaisical regard towards safe gun handling in my presence. And if someone horses around with a gun in his hand he can either put it away, or take his gun and both of them can go away.

I'm still not going to budge on thinking unsafe pose-pics on social media is an appropriate time to break the Four Rules. Call me a Curmudgeon. Oh well.

 

[orionengnr]

Forget the magazine vs. clip issue and focus on the 4 safety rules.

Bingo.
Show him some pics of GIs and note that their trigger fingers are always extended straight forward. Tactfully find a way to get the point across that professionals do it one way...the right way...every time.

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies?

No, because I quit giving those stinking Socialist Hollywood @#$%s my money years ago. Last movie I watched was Forest Gump. I don't even watch movies on TV.

 

[EvilGenius]

I treat firearms like many older cultures treated swords.

They were to be respected and used in an honorable fashion, always.

Putting your finger on the trigger when you're not ready to pull it shows a lack of respect and discipline. Both of which are not honorable, especially when done intentionally for bravado's sake.

To each their own, but if you choose to behave in such a manner dont expect to be taken seriously.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree that safety should be pushed, even on the internet. Else the next DumbTube video might be somebody ELSE shooting himself.

But I sure wish I had a database that would tell me every time somebody who feels compelled to explain the difference between "clip" and "magazine" had made some other and possibly more significant technical gaffe. For some reason I am particularly annoyed by people with .308" "bores" in their 7.62xwhatthehellever rifles.

 

[Skribs]

I think I'm just going to have to disagree over when it's OK to break a rule, and when it's not.

I can agree with that.

There is a difference between being Mastered by the Rules and being a Master of the Rules.

I can especially agree with this, and this is the point I was trying to make. I keep my finger off the trigger because I understand that if my finger is inside the trigger guard, and I should twitch, make a fist, trip, have an earthquake hit, etc, that my finger may potentially pull the trigger, hence the Rule about it.
I do not keep my finger off the trigger guard because "it's a rule".

I agree that safety should be pushed, even on the internet.

It depends on how its done. If you do it in a holier-than-thou manner, then it may turn people OFF to listening to you, and thus hurt safety. "RULES RULES RULES RULES RULES!" won't help anyone if nobody listens because you shove them down their throats.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Really? Hmm... anybody if knowledge of history would know that clip and magazine are really synonymous....

http://www.nraila.org/issues/firearmsglossary/

"CLIP
A device for holding a group of cartridges. Semantic wars have been fought over the word, with some insisting it is not a synonym for "detachable magazine." For 80 years, however, it has been so used by manufacturers and the military. There is no argument that it can also mean a separate device for holding and transferring a group of cartridges to a fixed or detachable magazine or as a device inserted with cartridges into the mechanism of a firearm becoming, in effect, part of that mechanism."

http://www.remington.com/products/accessories/gun-parts/magazine-clips/model-504-magazine-clip.aspx

"Model 504™ Magazine Clip"

For the record, I used to say the same thing, until I educated myself...

While magazine and clip are not complete synonyms, in reference to the detachable ammunition feeding device used in AR-15 and other similar firearms, either word is appropriate.

Generally, a clip holds things together, such as paper clips, hair clips, ect. In the specific usage, an ammo clip holds cartridges together for loading a firearm.

A magazine is something in which munitions are stored. They can be ammunition feeding devices in which munitions may be kept, buildings used to store munitions, or even rooms or closets where munitions are kept.

With respect to safety, a gentle reminder that one's trigger finger belongs beside the frame of an AR until one's muzzle is on target and one has decided that it is appropriate to shoot.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Generally, a clip holds things together, such as...

...an M1 Garand en-bloc "clip", which is inserted into the "magazine" of the rifle: