Total round count death match - M1 Garand and AK

[High Planes Drifter]

This argument is based on semi automatic firearms only. Please , no discussion of full auto rifles. Thank You.

I was having a friendly debate with a good friend of mine. He's a gun enthiusiast also. To the best of my knowledge he doesnt post here. The debate was of the following- Is the M1 Garand as reliable as the AK rifle? Tacticality aside, firepower aside, mag capacity aside, all things aside but weapon reliability.

Would a GI M1 rifle keep up with the AK rifle in in total round count before catastrophic failure? I argued that I think it would. I used the weapon's legendary track record in combat as the basis of my argument. I did not insult the AK rifle, as that was /is not my goal. My argument is that a GI M1 rifle can keep up with an AK rifle in total round count before catastrophic failure puts the rifle out of commision, making it unable to fire.

What says THR?

edited for spelling.

 

[kyrifleman0714]

I've never fired either one but let me say this, the AK was made after the M1 Garand which means AK probably had a chance to look at the M1 Garand's blueprints before he designed the AK.

 

[30Cal]

What are your assumptions? The M1 will go for a long long long time without cleaning (assuming you're not downright stupid with it).

 

[Hoppy590]

also consider individual build qualities.

an M1 will be better made than any of the imported AK's available now.

a real honest Russian AK would be ideal to compare against a real honest American M1

 

[Onmilo]

M1 Garands are still around dating from 1939.
They have been rebuilt and rebuilt again many, many times and keep shooting.

Take a look at how many AKM rifles are actually around that date from the 1960s that are still in use and not displayed in a museum, you will find the number to be quite small.
I have not ever seen an AKM rifle that displayed marks or evidence of complete rebuild, except those that were being used as familiarization weapons with the United States Military.

The US military is the only one I am aware of that continued to repair stocked training AKM rifles to ensure an adequate stock and since relations with the former East Bloc are now friendly and formal this is no longer necessary since we can direct purchase adequate stocks now.

Like the PPsH submachinegun, AKM rifles were designed to be disposable combat weapons.
They are the Bic lighter of combat rifles.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

I think its unquestionable that the AK-47, AKM or AK-74 would outlast the M1 Garand.

First, consider the forces at work. A .30-06 cartridge produces greater pressures, more friction, and more heat then a 7.62x39mm cartridge. Further, the AK has a chrome lined bore... which resists heat and erosion better then bare steel, which was the only way the M1 Garand was ever produced. Now, factor in corrosive ammunition... which to be fair was the primary diet of the M1 garand throughout its service life.
Also, consider the number of smaller, spindly moving parts in the M1 Garand's action. M1 Garand's gas pistons bend on occasion as a result of not being greased, rendering the rifle unserviceable. I've never heard of an AK being rendered unserviceable by not being greased. Arsenal claims that a chrome lined AK-47 barrel can withstand 30000 rounds on full auto before it needs to be replaced. Reduced heat of semi-auto only firing would certainly prolong this barrel life. I doubt the Garand could withstand the same...

 

[gcrookston]

My vote would be for the AK winning this one. Simply, the tolerances are not so great, it was designed as a fully automatic weapon. However, when do you call the weapon failed? when a part breaks or the barrel is shot out? Catastrophic failures are unlikely and rare in either weapon. I believe the Garand will foul out before the AK, based only upon my experience with both weapons.

 

[Geronimo45]

I think the AK might have the edge. Not just for the chrome-line bore, but also the lower-powered cartridge. Less stress. I recall a story of someone who won a Bronze/Silver Star or the Medal of Honor - in the Pacific somewhere, a Japanese assault was launched on entrenched Marines. One Marine had his pals beside him go down. He fired several hundred (or thousand) rounds, from what I heard. He kept firing away till the M1 jammed - then he picked up another, then another. They finally hauled him away wounded... but then he (IIRC) rolled off the stretcher and shot at least two more Japanese folk before he got to the doctor.
I hear that M1s are prone to overheating when fired very quickly for sustained periods (and having jams when overheated). AKs, now, were designed to withstand fully-automatic fire. They also overheat, but don't seem to have issues with reliability then so much as issues with the handguards catching fire.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

I think its unquestionable that the AK-47, AKM or AK-74 would outlast the M1 Garand.

First, consider the forces at work. A .30-06 cartridge produces greater pressures, more friction, and more heat then a 7.62x39mm cartridge. Further, the AK has a chrome lined bore... which resists heat and erosion better then bare steel, which was the only way the M1 Garand was ever produced. Now, factor in corrosive ammunition... which to be fair was the primary diet of the M1 garand throughout its service life.
Also, consider the number of smaller, spindly moving parts in the M1 Garand's action. M1 Garand's gas pistons bend on occasion as a result of not being greased, rendering the rifle unserviceable. I've never heard of an AK being rendered unserviceable by not being greased. Arsenal claims that a chrome lined AK-47 barrel can withstand 30000 rounds on full auto before it needs to be replaced. Reduced heat of semi-auto only firing would certainly prolong this barrel life. I doubt the Garand could withstand the same...

Yet, as Onmilo said, there are very few AKM rifles still around from the 60's or 70's. they just dont seem to last. A GI issue M1 Rifle was like a damn anvil. They were designed to take a beating. They were made of better materials than the ruskies used on thier AKM's. And the non-chrome lining of the barrel does not result in a catastrophic failure.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

May be close but if we are talking no cleaning and down right abuse, the AK's simplicity is a clear advantage. Combine that with the 7.62X39's sloped cartridge, and therefore sloped chamber dimensions, the X39 AK will have an advantage with extraction too. Just my uninformed opinions...

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[MechAg94]

I think you would have to convert one rifle to the other's cartridge before it would be a good test.

 

[General Geoff]

Properly maintained, I think either weapon will be so close to 100% reliable that it won't matter.

Ill-maintained, the AK might have a slight edge.

Overall longevity I'm gonna go with the Garand here. It has a forged steel receiver, and parts made to higher, tighter standards than an AKM. With standard wearable parts being replaced as needed, I think the Garand's receiver will last far longer than an AKM's.

 

[Andrewsky]

The Garand's receiver would probably crack at around 400,000 rounds.

 

[Logan5]

Then again, Haiti still has Garands we MAP'd to them in the 50's, and I think I saw some in the papers when they ousted Aristide.
Non corrosive ammo from an integral box seems to produce significantly less wear and tear than corrosive ammo fired full auto from 30 round detatchables when both weapons are in the hands of the non-maintenance inclined.

Probably because you do a lot less of it... In theory, the AK rocks, but observed reality would seem to indicate that the Garand lasts better.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Then again, Haiti still has Garands we MAP'd to them in the 50's, and I think I saw some in the papers when they ousted Aristide.
Non corrosive ammo from an integral box seems to produce significantly less wear and tear than corrosive ammo fired full auto from 30 round detatchables when both weapons are in the hands of the non-maintenance inclined.

Probably because you do a lot less of it... In theory, the AK rocks, but observed reality would seem to indicate that the Garand lasts better.

Thats pretty much the point I was getting at. The Garand was made to last and last and last.


Like an anvil that a blacksmith beats on.

 

[Hoppy590]

there are very few AKM rifles still around from the 60's or 70's. they just dont seem to last.

why keep them that long. they are cheaper to make new ones than replace the barrel when they get shot out. or rerivit everythign to a new reciever

 

[High Planes Drifter]

why keep them that long. they are cheaper to make new ones than replace the barrel when they get shot out. or rerivit everythign to a new reciever

The arguement was, what rifle would last longer. Please dont sidetrack the arguement. We're not talking about which rifle is cheaper to replace. We're talking about which rifle will last longer. One example each. Please. No arguements about cheaper to replace, repair, or re-equip.


Only which rifle will be able to aquire a greater total round before catastrophic failure.

 

[General Geoff]

are you including replacement of wearable parts or not? Barrel replacement being key. And depending on your answer to that, does accuracy matter?

I'm pretty sure that, all else being equal, an AKM's barrel will last longer (at least remain accurate longer) than a Garand's simply due to the cartridge's lower power. This assuming both weapons are fired in moderation (no rapid fire).

 

[jpwilly]

Lacking proper maintanance the M1 would crap out before an AKM...IMO Standard field maint and they will both run quite well for a long time.

 

[Hoppy590]

The arguement was, what rifle would last longer. Please dont sidetrack the arguement. We're not talking about which rifle is cheaper to replace. We're talking about which rifle will last longer. One example each. Please. No arguements about cheaper to replace, repair, or re-equip.

i didnt side track it, you did, you and Onmilo relate an items existance with its reliability. falacy of numbers. the fact that there arnt many AK's from the 60's still around, isnt longevity, but reason. that being there isnt any reason to rebuild and repair when you can make a new one cheaper.

 

[RecoilRob]

I think the key qualifier here is 'keeping up in round count' and that would depend on who is keeping up with whom.

If the AK guy is keeping pace with the M1, well, they would be out there a LONG time. Properly maintained, the M1 will put out a lot of rounds before something breaks or wears out, and the AK would easily match it round for round.

Now, on the other hand, if the M1 guy was trying to keep pace with the AK, it wouldn't last long as the sustained fire rate of the AK would burn down the M1 in fairly short order. And that is even allowing for the Garand shooter being able to load clips fast enough to keep pace with the AK.

So, I'd say the definitive answer is "It depends".

 

[GunTech]

The M1 definitely influenced the the AK, and Kalishnikov made no secret of the fact. He's stated on many occasions that he admired the rifle, and borrowed from the Garand, particularly in the trigger group.

The AK has some advantages, not the least being the low pressure tapered M43 round, which only runs at around 45,000 PSI vs 60,000 for the 30-06.

I expect that the AK would be more reliable under adverse conditions, as the M1 has a couple of well known issues. But as noted, the AK follows the later WWII German philosophy of a simple, disposable weapon. The AK is designed to be replaced when worn out. The Garand comes from an earlier age when great attention was lavished on weapons that were expected to last and last, to be serviced an repaired as necessary. It's 1920/1930s design philosophy.

I suspect that in round count, and allowing for regular service, the Garand would outlast several AKs. It makes sense, considering if you compare the cost to manufacture each rifle.

YMMV

 

[zinj]

The AK has some advantages, not the least being the low pressure tapered M43 round, which only runs at around 45,000 PSI vs 60,000 for the 30-06.

IIRC the .30-06 only runs at around 50K-55K PSI.

 

[gcrookston]

What do you suppose the round count is out of those 60 year old Haiti garands? can the country even afford to buy bullets? How about those 40 year old AK's floating around places like Somalia and Afghanistan? What's the round count through those, do you suppose? 50x, 100x, 1000x those garands? As I read the topic, it is which one would be king of the hill on total round count... not which one would last longest leaning in the corner of the constable's office.

 

[GunTech]

The 30-06 runs about 50,000 CUP per SAAMI. That's about 60,000 PSI.