Toward a better .410 pistol load.

[Texan Scott]

This is just a thought experiment for now, and possibly that's all it'll ever be... I'm in no hurry to blow fingers off or anything. Buuut...

I'm obsessing over ammo choices for my Bond Arms C2K .45/.410. Effective SD .410 shells are hard to come by, and possibly not all they're cracked up to be. There simply isn't a lot of well thought out testing or reliable, applicable empirical data out there.

One thing I *DO* think can be said for sure is that the biggest problems plaguing .410 loads for handguns are a) poor velocity yields from short barrels and b) inadequate penetration due to small shot sizes, light weights, overly soft (malleable) shot, and the aforementioned low velocity.

The second problem might be readily ameliorated by using large buckshot... perhaps antimony hardened ("magnum") 0000 ("quad aught"). At 6/oz, three pellets would make a perfect half oz load. I'm thinking, however, that since short barrel velocities are a problem, lightening the shot load to two (1/3 oz) might make sense.

That's only part of the velocity problem, though. Powder burn rate in a short barrel would need to be higher, wouldn't it? All things being equal, the faster burn should yield higher pressure before the shot and wad leave the barrel, yes?

Here's where I don't have NEARLY enough experience reloading to say with certainty. I've read that Lil'gun is good for .410 but also for .357 pistol; the peak pressures do look higher in published load data. Would that be a good powder to use for short barrel applications, or is there a pistol powder that y'all think would be better?

Thoughts?

 

[rcmodel]

Powder burn rate in a short barrel would need to be higher, wouldn't it?

No.
Shotgun powder is selected for burn rate to keep chamber pressure from going off the chart while the shot load is getting time to move out of the way of the expanding gasses.

Larger bore guns use faster powder then smaller ones due to them having a higher bore volume for expansion to take place.

Then there is the fact that whatever powder gives the highest velocity in a long barrel will also give the highest velocity in a short barrel.

And when you reload shotgun, you need to follow the published pressure tested data.

Max SAAMI pressure for the .410 is 12,500 PSI.

That's lower then most any handgun caliber, except one of the old black-powder calibers, .38 Colt.

Faster powder then recommended in a .410 is sure to exceed the pressure limits.

rc

 

[Texan Scott]

Thanks, RC. This is why I ask. Better to learn by listening than flash burning my eyebrows off.

In that case, I'll stick to ogling Lil'gun and H110 load data.

This requires more research into shot cups, now ...

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Might I also suggest doing some quantative testing of various factory rounds first before assuming they'll be inadequate for SD use.

Unless someone else has already done so, and published the tangible results which people can do comparative analysis with, then this would be my first step.

Making your own ballistics gelatin doesn't look to be too difficult...and even if you don't "calibrate" it (which also doesn't look to be too difficult), you can still do qualitative analysis by comparing the results against something else as a standard. For example, a .357 Magnum load with a known bullet/velocity (that perhaps also has ballistics gelatin testing available elsewhere) that you've fired into the same batch of gelatin.

THEN you could post the results here...with pictures...so all the THR members can eat it up. 'Cause we like that kinda stuff!

 

[Hondo 60]

I for one, would NOT want to be hit with any .410 load.
I have a .410 shotgun & have seen what they do to paper targets, a box of wet newspaper, plastic water bottles, empty gun powder bottles, etc.

The thought of getting shot like that makes me shiver.

 

[Texan Scott]

True... but your shotgun probably has 2ft more barrel than my derringer, and maybe gets nearly twice the velocity. That's one of those little problems ...

 

[suemarkp]

I'm not sure what barrel length your Bond arms has, but I'm sure it is short. The Federal OOO buckshot load for the Taurus Judge seems to be the most effective factory round. It has 4 hard copper plated pellets. It seems to have sufficient penetration.

As far as possible improvements:
Suggest using 444 Marlin brass, as its easy to come by and can use your metallic reloader instead of learning how to do 410 shells.

Soft pellets can be good, as they expand in the barrel to a larger diameter (up to .450 or so) and will make a larger hole in the target. But that will reduce penetration. So you could try three .375 lead balls to get additional weight and better the penetration. And they will make a hole of at least .375 instead of .36 like OOO shot. Should probably be a touch faster too since it will weigh less than 4 OOO shot.

The only other load that gets you a decent pellet count that still has some hope of penetrating is using BB or BBB lead shot. These will fit in a triangle of 3 pellets in each layer of the shell. Can probably do 5 or 6 layers and up the velocity. BB is going to need some speed to get decent penetration, but with a short barrel that could be tough. But patterns with BB tend to open up very quickly if the barrel is rifled, and high velocity makes it worse. At just 5 yards, you'll probably have a 20" pattern or larger.

If you're not worried about bullets going too far, I'd just use a 45 Colt load. Either a full wadcutter or maybe a 185 or 200gr hollow point if you can get the velocity to make it expand. Soft swaged lead would be better for these, but so many cast bullets are rather hard from the factory.

 

[Texan Scott]

Cowboy 45 Colts are of course fun and offer all the penetration I could need

I need to start loading those with black powder.

Actually, while I'm at it, I might have to get a roll crimp tool and see what a pressed dram or dram and a half of Fffg under two .375s with a paper shell and fiber wad does...

And if I do that, I'll be in a perfect position to get a .36 c&b revolver.

 

[blackhawk44]

Pattern density is the problem, not projectile momentum. For human defense, buy the factory buck loads and stand close. For snake loads, buy the smallest shot size available. #9's would be good, #12's perfect, especially since your effective range will be measured in feet, not yards. .410 velocity is only about 1100fps to start with, but even in your short barrel, with the .410's small charges, you won't lose nearly as much velocity as you might suppose.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Pattern density is the problem, not projectile momentum. For human defense, buy the factory buck loads and stand close. For snake loads, buy the smallest shot size available. #9's would be good, #12's perfect, especially since your effective range will be measured in feet, not yards. .410 velocity is only about 1100fps to start with, but even in your short barrel, with the .410's small charges, you won't lose nearly as much velocity as you might suppose.

Ummm...not quite.

The problem is that each pellet has its own ballistics characteristics, and they don't add up to the ballistics characteristic of a single large slug with the equivalent mass.

220 grains in a single 1/2 ounce slug is far more formidible than 220 grains worth of pellets.