Trying to decide 6.5 CM or 308 Win

[Varminterror]

I travel to hunt often so I try to pick cartridges that are common worldwide. The 308 is available everywhere. I doubt that the 6.5mm internet sensation will have that advantage for a while but it just may get there someday. Not many fellows need to consider ammunition buying ammunition in foreign places, but it is a consideration for me.

What ACTUAL sales data do you have to back this up? Or are you simply speculating and making up sales and availability factoids to support your dislike for a new-ish cartridge?

 

[Gtscotty]

I travel to hunt often so I try to pick cartridges that are common worldwide. The 308 is available everywhere. I doubt that the 6.5mm internet sensation will have that advantage for a while but it just may get there someday. Not many fellows need to consider ammunition buying ammunition in foreign places, but it is a consideration for me.

I'm guessing that the constraints of world-wide hunting vacations are not really a concern for the OP looking to buy a Savage Axis, or for the vast majority of people who will read this thread for that matter.

The internet sure is doing a bang-up job of keeping an enormous variety of 6.5 ammo on the shelves at all the stores around here. I guess all those Creedmoor Corp. advertising campaigns I keep hearing about are really working!

 

[<*(((><]

I'm guessing that the constraints of world-wide hunting vacations are not really a concern for the OP looking to buy a Savage Axis, or for the vast majority of people who will read this thread for that matter.

The internet sure is doing a bang-up job of keeping a vast variety of 6.5 ammo on the shelves at all the stores around here. I guess all those Creedmoor Corp. advertising campaigns I keep hearing about are really working!

Agreed. I don't think that 6.5 Creedmoor ammo availability should be a concern for anyone considering one, there is PLENTY of variety of 6.5 CM ammo on the shelves around here.

 

[Seamaster31]

"What ACTUAL sales data do you have to back this up? Or are you simply speculating and making up sales and availability factoids to support your dislike for a new-ish cartridge?

Varminterror, Today at 10:33 AM"

I did not say I have sales data and I never said I dislike the 6.5. You are reaching too far. Relax a bit.

I hunt in Africa fairly frequently and I know what ammo is available in the camps where I have stayed, and in some of the (rare) shops. I speak from my personal experience.

 

[MCMXI]

I have to wonder how stable that 175 LRX really is in a 1:10 twist.

That'll depend on a number of variables including muzzle velocity, altitude and air temperature. I hunt at a minimum elevation of 3,000 ft so a 1:10 twist barrel would be good for me down to 15°F assuming a muzzle velocity of 2,650 fps which is not hard to achieve with a 24" barrel and suppressor. Hornady doesn't provide the length of the 140gr GMX so I don't know if it would be stable in a 1:8 twist barrel.

 

[Seamaster31]

What ACTUAL sales data do you have to back this up? Or are you simply speculating and making up sales and availability factoids to support your dislike for a new-ish cartridge?

I initially took your comment seriously and did not see that it was written with a keen sense of humor to get a rise. You got me to post a serious answer (above). Well done, I have been had.

 

[TonyAngel]

Man, I really thought I remembered the 6.5 utilizing the same bolt as a .308. My mistake. I don’t build em, I just shoot em.

eh, out to 300 yards, I don’t think it makes much difference in terms of accuracy. The .308 is plenty good for that distance. For just shooting pleasure, I had really good luck with Sierra bullets and reloader 15 or varget powder.

I can’t speak of knock down power and the like. I don’t hunt anymore, but I like the .30 caliber.

 

[Swampman]

Man, I really thought I remembered the 6.5 utilizing the same bolt as a .308. My mistake. I don’t build em, I just shoot em.

eh, out to 300 yards, I don’t think it makes much difference in terms of accuracy. The .308 is plenty good for that distance. For just shooting pleasure, I had really good luck with Sierra bullets and reloader 15 or varget powder.

I can’t speak of knock down power and the like. I don’t hunt anymore, but I like the .30 caliber.

If you're talking about the 6.5 Creed, it does use the same bolt as .308 and is derived from it, but it's not just a necked down .308, that'd be the. 260 Remington.

 

[rayatphonix]

The parent case for the 6.5 Creedmoor is the 30 TC. The 30 TC was developed by Hornady for Thompson Center. The base diameter of both of these match the 308 and 30-06 family which means the bolt face diameters are the same.

 

[Varminterror]

Man, I really thought I remembered the 6.5 utilizing the same bolt as a .308.

A lot of rounds use the same bolt faces, but it doesn’t mean anything for parentage. The 204 Ruger uses the same boltface as the 223. The 300WSM uses the same bolt face as 7RM. The 6.5 creed uses the same boltface as 30-06. None of these cartridges are respective parents for the other.

 

[TonyAngel]

I have a distinct recollection of forming 6.5cm from .308 brass. We only did it because it was faster than ordering it and waiting. Eh, at the time, we were clowning around. Our local matches topped out at 600 yards for .308 and we were just looking for something better when we did get to shoot farther. You know, just looking for something else to shoot.

Like I said, it shoots flatter. A lot less dialing, but at the time, I just had a new Krieger barrel put on my 700 and I was setup for .308, I had my load down and didn't feel like pursuing it any further.

 

[LoonWulf]

I have a distinct recollection of forming 6.5cm from .308 brass. We only did it because it was faster than ordering it and waiting. Eh, at the time, we were clowning around. Our local matches topped out at 600 yards for .308 and we were just looking for something better when we did get to shoot farther. You know, just looking for something else to shoot.

Like I said, it shoots flatter. A lot less dialing, but at the time, I just had a new Krieger barrel put on my 700 and I was setup for .308, I had my load down and didn't feel like pursuing it any further.

you can form 6.5cm from any of the .308 basses cartridges. I made a couple from .243.

It's shorter, has less tapper, and a sharper shoulder, and not based directly on the .308
It's directly based on the 30tc from what I understand, which looks an awful lot like a .300 Savage.

 

[gotboostvr]

308 has cheap surplus ammo, but be prepared for poor accuracy with it. I wouldn't use it for "practice" as it's hard to know if your fundamentals are causing 3moa groups or the ammo itself.

It's ok for plinking and banging short range steel, that's about it.

I'd go 6.5 creed all the way, and I'm already heavily invested in 308 myself. If I ever swap barrels on my R700, I'll be making the change to either 260AI or 6.5 creed.

 

[Newtosavage]

Split the difference and go with the best-balanced cartridge out there, the 7mm-08.

Especially if you hand load. If not, then the .308 will be your cheapest option and will do more than the 6.5 CM in my opinion, but the 6.5 CM is a good round too, and it's getting more affordable to shoot every day.

 

[Gtscotty]

Split the difference and go with the best-balanced cartridge out there, the 7mm-08.

Especially if you hand load. If not, then the .308 will be your cheapest option and will do more than the 6.5 CM in my opinion, but the 6.5 CM is a good round too, and it's getting more affordable to shoot every day.

What do you feel the .308 will do that the 6.5 won't?

 

[Newtosavage]

What do you feel the .308 will do that the 6.5 won't?

Heavier bullets for larger critters. That's all. Just my preference.

I'd take the range of bullet weights the .308 offers over that of the 6.5 CM for what I do.

.308's handle 125 NBT's and 180 Accubonds with ease. Not much you can't do with those two and everything in-between.

 

[horsey300]

Split the difference and go with the best-balanced cartridge out there, the 7mm-08.

Especially if you hand load. If not, then the .308 will be your cheapest option and will do more than the 6.5 CM in my opinion, but the 6.5 CM is a good round too, and it's getting more affordable to shoot every day.

Heavier bullets for larger critters. That's all. Just my preference.

I'd take the range of bullet weights the .308 offers over that of the 6.5 CM for what I do.

.308's handle 125 NBT's and 180 Accubonds with ease. Not much you can't do with those two and everything in-between.

What weight bullets do you run in the 7-08?

 

[Gtscotty]

Heavier bullets for larger critters. That's all. Just my preference.

I'd take the range of bullet weights the .308 offers over that of the 6.5 CM for what I do.

.308's handle 125 NBT's and 180 Accubonds with ease. Not much you can't do with those two and everything in-between.

Interesting, personally there is nothing I would use the .308 for that I wouldn't use the 6.5 Creedmoor for. If I'm after elk and smaller either will work fine, and the 6.5 will have a better trajectory, windage, and likely penetration. If I'm after animals bigger than elk, I'm probably not taking either. For target shooting I'll take the 6.5 every time (between the two), especially since 20 mph is an average to light wind here, the .308 just can't keep up at range. I'm all for folks using what they want though.

 

[MCMXI]

personally there is nothing I would use the .308 for that I wouldn't use the 6.5 Creedmoor for. If I'm after elk and smaller either will work fine, and the 6.5 will have a better trajectory and windage, if I'm after animals bigger than that, I'm probably not taking either.

If you shoot solid copper bullets then the .308 Win might be a better choice for some. I'd rather shoot a solid copper .30 cal bullet than a solid copper .264 cal bullet. That's not to say that a .264 cal 120gr to 140gr won't be effective on various animals. A coworker went to Africa last year and used Federal's 6.5CM 120gr Trophy Copper load and was very pleased with the performance on most animals that they shot with only a couple of exceptions.

The thing that annoys me about all of these fan boy 6.5CM threads is the prevailing attitude that if you don't choose the 6.5CM for everything you're making wrong choice or not the best choice. I have rifles chambered in .375 H&H Mag, .338 Lapua Mag, .300 Win Mag, 300 WSM, .308 Win/7.62 NATO, 6.5CM, 6.5x47 Lapua, .45-70 Govt, .223 Rem/5.56 NATO, 300 BLK, and probably more that I'm not remembering. I shoot them all, and shoot them pretty darn well too.

 

[Old Stumpy]

I just don’t understand why some people refuse to give it the credit it deserves its good at what it does maybe that’s why it’s hated

What confuses 6.5 CM aficianados is that it is NOT that anyone hates the cartridge, but that they hate the B.S. that is often attributed to it.
The 6.5 CM is as good a cartridge as the 6.5 Swedish because it duplicates its ballistics.
However, the 6.5 Swedish has been around for over a century and is not the begin-all and end-all of cartridge development, and so neither is the 6.5 CM as its short action clone.
There is nothing about the 6.5 CM cartridge that is really new or noteworthy, other than possessing a shorter cartridge case than the 6.5 Swedish, and this at the expense of increased chamber pressure.
The same is true of the .308 Winchester with regards to the .30-06.
The fact that a number of rifles are chambered for 6.5 CM and that there are a number of different loadings available for it merely proves that it IS popular, but not necessarily why.
After all, the .30-30 remains very popular, and yet nobody would claim that that is because it is superior to some other hunting cartridges which are less popular.

 

[horsemen61]

What confuses 6.5 CM aficianados is that it is NOT that anyone hates the cartridge, but that they hate the B.S. that is often attributed to it.
The 6.5 CM is as good a cartridge as the 6.5 Swedish because it duplicates its ballistics.
However, the 6.5 Swedish has been around for over a century and is not the begin-all and end-all of cartridge development, and so neither is the 6.5 CM as its short action clone.
There is nothing about the 6.5 CM cartridge that is really new or noteworthy, other than possessing a shorter cartridge case than the 6.5 Swedish, and this at the expense of increased chamber pressure.
The same is true of the .308 Winchester with regards to the .30-06.
The fact that a number of rifles are chambered for 6.5 CM and that there are a number of different loadings available for it merely proves that it IS popular, but not necessarily why.
After all, the .30-30 remains very popular, and yet nobody would claim that that is because it is superior to some other hunting cartridges which are less popular.

I highly doubt it’s popular just for the sake of being popular it obviously does something to make folks pick it up over the other cartridges at most shops

it must be something otherwise it wouldn’t have Rose to such Meteoric Fame in such a short time especially in this day and age when everyone has a chronograph and manufacturer’s can’t fib on the velocity

for me it offers more punch than a .243
And less recoil than a .308 that is worth it to me plus them High SD bullets with great BC’s doesn’t hurt it one bit

 

[Newtosavage]

Interesting, personally there is nothing I would use the .308 for that I wouldn't use the 6.5 Creedmoor for. If I'm after elk and smaller either will work fine, and the 6.5 will have a better trajectory, windage, and likely penetration. If I'm after animals bigger than elk, I'm probably not taking either. For target shooting I'll take the 6.5 every time (between the two), especially since 20 mph is an average to light wind here, the .308 just can't keep up at range. I'm all for folks using what they want though.

Yea, it's mostly just personal preference. I was thinking if a guy had one rifle and wanted to hunt everything from antelope to moose, the .308 would be my pick, of the two. On paper, there is no question the 6.5 CM has an edge. But I always think hunting first and I have a habit of picking slower, heavier bullets due to cutting my teeth on a 30-30.

 

[Gtscotty]

If you shoot solid copper bullets then the .308 Win might be a better choice for some. I'd rather shoot a solid copper .30 cal bullet than a solid copper .264 cal bullet. That's not to say that a .264 cal 120gr to 140gr won't be effective on various animals. A coworker went to Africa last year and used Federal's 6.5CM 120gr Trophy Copper load and was very pleased with the performance on most animals that they shot with only a couple of exceptions.

The thing that annoys me about all of these fan boy 6.5CM threads is the prevailing attitude that if you don't choose the 6.5CM for everything you're making wrong choice or not the best choice. I have rifles chambered in .375 H&H Mag, .338 Lapua Mag, .300 Win Mag, 300 WSM, .308 Win/7.62 NATO, 6.5CM, 6.5x47 Lapua, .45-70 Govt, .223 Rem/5.56 NATO, 300 BLK, and probably more that I'm not remembering. I shoot them all, and shoot them pretty darn well too.

It's not a fanboy position to state that I don't agree that .308 "does more" than the 6.5 Creedmoor and explain why, surely that's not what you're suggesting?

I've had more .308s than any other rifle caliber (except .223), it's a fine chambering, I just think it's a bit oversold on the forums. It never really was great at anything, but it is a good generalist. I don't think it's the best generalist out there anymore all things considered, and therefore don't recommend it as such. Is it still good? Sure. Is it my go to in "what rifle should I buy" threads? Not really, because I don't think it offers the best balance of capability, recoil, trajectory, wind resistance, factory ammo value, reloading value and ubiquity for most US shooters. Other people can have other opinions, and as adults we can discuss our opinions without accusing each other of being "fanboys".

I also don't restrict myself to monolithic bullets, I prefer bonded bullets, and don't think there's meaningful lead consumption danger for hunters and their families eating the meat they kill. All the studies I was able find are pretty shakey so I started having my family all take periodic lead tests. We all eat a lot of elk, deer and antelope killed with lead core bullets, and I reload and shoot (outdoors) a lot, and none of us have breached the minimum detectable limit of the test. So I like playing with mono bullets, but they are not a hard requirement for me at all. The situation might be different if I was stuck behind the iron curtain in California.

Edit: Lol, I guess this forum has a filter that automatically changes Commie.fornia to California.

 

[horsey300]

I highly doubt it’s popular just for the sake of being popular it obviously does something to make folks pick it up over the other cartridges at most shops

it must be something otherwise it wouldn’t have Rose to such Meteoric Fame in such a short time especially in this day and age when everyone has a chronograph and manufacturer’s can’t fib on the velocity

for me it offers more punch than a .243
And less recoil than a .308 that is worth it to me plus them High SD bullets with great BC’s doesn’t hurt it one bit

But can you imagine a high bc bullet with an s.d. of .32 and only weighing 132 gr flying out around 26-2700?......sign me up!

The biggest thing any of the .30s fight is efficiency, they have variety aplenty, kinda like my kids have toys. In a debate over x amount of bullets available vs y.......it's painful to admit that most folks ever really NEED 2 or 3 options, on the extreme side of course there are some who experiment plenty (guilty) and as a former .30 advocate who grew up running .30-30, .300 sav, .303 Brit, and .30-40 krag (and many rounds no less) before ever firing a .243 (ultimately giving up the .300 wm for a metric speed demon) I would be shocked to EVER meet a person who had tried EVERY bullet available for the .30, I'd suspect at best the average .30 user has tried a few target bullets, a few hunting bullets, a few plinkers and has come up with a small handful of each that they consistently use. I also believe that to be similar for the other calibers, tendencies will favor the tools to be utilized and the excess will fall by the wayside.

 

[MCMXI]

It's not a fanboy position to state that I don't agree that .308 "does more" than the 6.5 Creedmoor and explain why, surely that's not what you're suggesting?

I think you know me better than that. You're stating that it's a better choice for you and giving reasons, just as I've stated many times that the .308 Win is a better choice for me and I've given my reasons. There are others on many forums including this one that don't use their 6.5CM for anything other than paper punching, and many don't shoot beyond 100 yards a couple of times a year. It's those folks that annoy me since they regurgitate the same stuff they've read trying to get everyone else to pat them on the back for the perfect choice that they made. Those are the "fanboys" of which I speak.

There are no absolutes here. It's nothing more than an opinion that the 6.5CM has "changed shooting forever" or that it's the best "do it all" cartridge. For me the .308 Win is the best all-around cartridge but that's simply my opinion based on my uses.

Other people can have other opinions, and as adults we can discuss our opinions without accusing each other of being "fanboys".

I didn't accuse you of being a fanboy. A fanboy would try to make the point that the success they achieved on paper or out in the field wouldn't have been possible with any cartridge other than the 6.5CM.

It's ironic that I've been shooting the 6.5CM for over three years, and have a 6.5x47 Lapua as well and always seem to argue against the 6.5CM. The 6.5CM will never be my favorite cartridge and that's ok with me, but it doesn't seem to be ok with some others.