Trying to decide 6.5 CM or 308 Win

[Gtscotty]

I think you know me better than that. You're stating that it's a better choice for you and giving reasons, just as I've stated many times that the .308 Win is a better choice for me and I've given my reasons. There are others on many forums including this one that don't use their 6.5CM for anything other than paper punching, and many don't shoot beyond 100 yards a couple of times a year. It's those folks that annoy me since they regurgitate the same stuff they've read trying to get everyone else to pat them on the back for the perfect choice that they made. Those are the "fanboys" of which I speak.

There are no absolutes here. It's nothing more than an opinion that the 6.5CM has "changed shooting forever" or that it's the best "do it all" cartridge. For me the .308 Win is the best all-around cartridge but that's simply my opinion based on my uses.



I didn't accuse you of being a fanboy. A fanboy would try to make the point that the success they achieved on paper or out in the field wouldn't have been possible with any cartridge other than the 6.5CM.

It's ironic that I've been shooting the 6.5CM for over three years, and have a 6.5x47 Lapua as well and always seem to argue against the 6.5CM. The 6.5CM will never be my favorite cartridge and that's ok with me, but it doesn't seem to be ok with some others.

My apologies. We all have our favorites, but in reality, it would be hard to make a truly bad choice amongst the popular medium game cartridges of today.

 

[Old Stumpy]

it must be something otherwise it wouldn’t have Rose to such Meteoric Fame in such a short time especially in this day and age when everyone has a chronograph and manufacturer’s can’t fib on the velocity

And that chronograph tells them that its ballistics are no different than the 6.5 Swedish, which never achieved any real popularity in North America.
And those century old ballistics never inspired U.S. rifle makers to chamber more than a few new rifles for the 6.5 Swede.
So, while the 6.5 CM is certainly popular, whatever that certain "something" is that is a reason for its popularity, it is NOT because of new cutting edge ballistics.
Rather, it is simply an old cartridge in a new package.

 

[Buckeye63]

And that chronograph tells them that its ballistics are no different than the 6.5 Swedish, which never achieved any real popularity in North America.
And those century old ballistics never inspired U.S. rifle makers to chamber more than a few new rifles for the 6.5 Swede.
So, while the 6.5 CM is certainly popular, whatever that certain "something" is that is a reason for its popularity, it is NOT because of new cutting edge ballistics.
Rather, it is simply an old cartridge in a new package.

Timing is everything... Seems like the rangeshooters are out numbering hunters and seems like more hunters are at the range more ...
Those long sleek bullets that are made
for the Creedmoor, will do the same in the Old Swede

 

[Llama Bob]

And that chronograph tells them that its ballistics are no different than the 6.5 Swedish, which never achieved any real popularity in North America.

This junk again?

The 6.5CM is not popular because it's fast. It's not fast. It's acceptably fast for the size action it's in, but 6.5WSM or 6.5PRC/RCM or whatever is faster. The goal was never to be fast. The goal was to get a number of things right that affected accuracy, bullet selection, reloadability, and efficicncy/recoil:

• Fits in a short action (affects accuracy)
  
• Shoulder and neck to OAL distances suitable for VLD bullets (affects bullet selection)
  
• Steep shoulder (affects accuracy, reloadability, and efficiency/recoil)
  
• Fast twist rate (affects bullet selection)
• Low taper (affects accuracy and efficiency/recoil)

The 6.5CM is popular because it's the first SAAMI-approved round in its class to get all those things right. It outdid the competition on technical merit and spread by word of mouth as the people who built the first ones saw how thoroughly they outperformed competing rounds.

 

[someguy2800]

Timing is everything... Seems like the rangeshooters are out numbering hunters and seems like more hunters are at the range more ...
Those long sleek bullets that are made
for the Creedmoor, will do the same in the Old Swede

Unfortunately there are next to no rifles being offered in 6.5x55 and practically no ammo. That’s why 6.5 creedmoor is successful. They made it the correct length so that it fits in any short action rifle, so every manufacturer could chamber for it, and they released really good affordable factory ammo for it. Put yourself in the shoes of a new shooter getting into long range shooting. Why on earth would they buy a 6.5x55 that there is very little factory ammo for when there a cartridge that they can buy factory ammo loaded with hornady bthp match bullets for $1 a round that they can get ammo for anywhere.

That’s what makes the 6.5 creedmoor an apealing and sensible choice. It’s not that it does anything particularly special ballistically. Its just that you can get it in any rifle you want, you can get any type of ammo you want, and it’s not expensive. It has perfectly slotted itself in among the standard us cartridges that you can buy anywhere.

As I see it, the standard cartridges right now that are basically universally availible now are,

.223, .243, 6.5cm, 270, 308, 30/06, 300 win

Those cartridges can be found everywhere and you can have them in nearly every variety. If you take the 6.5cm out of that list there is a big gap between .243 and 270. That was the market need that was unfilled. 260 rem should have filled that gap but it failed because the case is too long for the high BC bullets and they gave it the wrong twist rate. Plus remington marketed it which never helps.

So along comes 6.5cm, and because of all the reasons above and the rising popularity of long range shooting, people find it to be a very easy cartridge to live with and it just perfectly slotted into the gap that the 260 and 6.5x55 left for it to fill.

 

[TonyAngel]

I feel I should qualify what I've said. I don't hunt anymore and haven't in the last 20 years or so. It became apparent to me long ago that shooting was more fun to me than bagging game. All I'm worried about is being able to punch tight groups in paper and banging steel. I can't make any comments regarding either's effectiveness as a hunting round. The only reason I played around with it at all is because a friend of mine is a fairly prominent rifle builder and he mentioned it to me.

My interest in the .308 was that it was easy to shoot, easy to load for and I was already invested in it. Heck, at the time, I was doing about 1000 rounds a month and I was just grateful that .308 didn't burn barrels or throats like some other cartridges did. I just remember that the 6.5CM required a lot less dialing. The .308 could really test the limits of a scope with 100 moa adjustment built in and the 40 moa mount it was on. But I guess that was the fun part.

 

[Old Stumpy]

• Fits in a short action (affects accuracy)
  
• Shoulder and neck to OAL distances suitable for VLD bullets (affects bullet selection)
  
• Steep shoulder (affects accuracy, reloadability, and efficiency/recoil)
  
• Fast twist rate (affects bullet selection)
• Low taper (affects accuracy and efficiency/recoil)

The 6.5CM is popular because it's the first SAAMI-approved round in its class to get all those things right.

The facts are that any modern 6.5 Swedish rifle can be manufactured to equal or exceed any 6.5 CM in accuracy and performance.

And, if a 6.5 CM can be made with a fast twist rate then so can any 6.5 Swedish rifle barrel and so accept the same wide range of bullets, or bullets tailored for 6.5 Swedish.

And despite all of the techno-babble, any perceived differences in cartridge reloadability and recoil are miniscule at best.

The smaller casing does increase chamber pressures substantially, and so a 6.5 CM cartridge does require a lesser powder charge, which is more economical/efficient with powder. However, considering the amount of money spent on rifles, target scopes, and aftermarket add-ons, I hardly think that it is significant.

The downside of course is that the short case and increased chamber pressure limits the velocity that can be achieved compared to the 6.5 Swedish, which can be loaded to higher velocities.

 

[LoonWulf]

Out of curiosity, anyone on this side of the pond shoot a 6.5 Swede in competition? I don't pay much attention, but in the graphs I've seen guys post on here I don't think I've seen one.

 

[rayatphonix]

The facts are that any modern 6.5 Swedish rifle can be manufactured to equal or exceed any 6.5 CM in accuracy and performance.

And, if a 6.5 CM can be made with a fast twist rate then so can any 6.5 Swedish rifle barrel and so accept the same wide range of bullets, or bullets tailored for 6.5 Swedish.

And despite all of the techno-babble, any perceived differences in cartridge reloadability and recoil are miniscule at best.

The smaller casing does increase chamber pressures substantially, and so a 6.5 CM cartridge does require a lesser powder charge, which is more economical/efficient with powder. However, considering the amount of money spent on rifles, target scopes, and aftermarket add-ons, I hardly think that it is significant.

The downside of course is that the short case and increased chamber pressure limits the velocity that can be achieved compared to the 6.5 Swedish, which can be loaded to higher velocities.

Few manufacturers see the need to build a “better” Swede because it’s already been built.

 

[Picher]

Almost nobody talks about the 7mm-08 these days. It actually is a really great cartridge for medium range deer hunting, with lots of one-shot kills. It's also very accurate, more accurate than almost anyone needs, but also has better killing power than a 6mm,. with less recoil than a .308, .270 or 30-06.

A neighbor bought a used Remington 7mm-08 and the front stock screw of the plastic stock had been over-torqued and split the stock. I pillar-bedded and free-floated it and when we shot it with factory ammo, shot groups under 3/8" at 100 yards! She killed a great buck with it recently and really loves that rifle/cartridge combination. If I didn't have two .270's, I'd think about a rifle in that chambering.

JP

 

[Llama Bob]

Out of curiosity, anyone on this side of the pond shoot a 6.5 Swede in competition? I don't pay much attention, but in the graphs I've seen guys post on here I don't think I've seen one.

I've never seen it since the Creedmoor took off. Why would anyone? It's less accurate, reloads worse, and has nothing to offer in return.

6.5x55AI or similar wildcats make an occasional appearance as they correct the majority of the technical issues - maybe one in several hundred top shooters. If you could get modern actions sized to it, they might show up a bit more.

 

[Newtosavage]

BTW, 125 NBT's out of a .308 are just pure fun to shoot, and from my .308's - super accurate too. And, 180 NAB's out of my .308's were starti

Almost nobody talks about the 7mm-08 these days. It actually is a really great cartridge for medium range deer hunting, with lots of one-shot kills. It's also very accurate, more accurate than almost anyone needs, but also has better killing power than a 6mm,. with less recoil than a .308, .270 or 30-06.

A neighbor bought a used Remington 7mm-08 and the front stock screw of the plastic stock had been over-torqued and split the stock. I pillar-bedded and free-floated it and when we shot it with factory ammo, shot groups under 3/8" at 100 yards! She killed a great buck with it recently and really loves that rifle/cartridge combination. If I didn't have two .270's, I'd think about a rifle in that chambering.

JP

JP, I'm with ya. I own two 7mm-08's now as my primary hunting rifles. I have been through a ton of hunting rifles from 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 up to '06's and everything in-between (including the 6.5 CM and multiple .308's). The 7mm-08, like the 7x57 it replicates, is the most balanced hunting caliber ever developed IMO. It's really sad that it never became more popular, but anytime I run into another 7mm-08 user, I know they have given their caliber choice some thought and they are likely an experienced shooter.

Regarding the .270, the 7mm-08 is essentially a short-action .270 with the ballistics being so close it's not worth mentioning. Only real difference is the 7mm-08 handles 160 class bullets a little better.

I also owned a .280 Rem for a while, and it too was a great caliber but I can't say it did a whole lot that my 7mm-08 can't do except produce more felt recoil.

 

[HankC]

The only reason I would choose 308 over 6.5 would be access to surplus ammunition and an intention to fire a lot of it.

I add barrel life. For folks don't shoot competition or long range, 308 will do just fine and cheaper to shoot. 6.5 CM is nice but like it too much and shoot a lot, will need a new barrel much sooner and drain your wallet faster. I decided to stay with 308. 308 is forgiving to load also, plenty of brass and bullet choices.

 

[Picher]

BTW, 125 NBT's out of a .308 are just pure fun to shoot, and from my .308's - super accurate too. And, 180 NAB's out of my .308's were starti

JP, I'm with ya. I own two 7mm-08's now as my primary hunting rifles. I have been through a ton of hunting rifles from 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 up to '06's and everything in-between (including the 6.5 CM and multiple .308's). The 7mm-08, like the 7x57 it replicates, is the most balanced hunting caliber ever developed IMO. It's really sad that it never became more popular, but anytime I run into another 7mm-08 user, I know they have given their caliber choice some thought and they are likely an experienced shooter.

Regarding the .270, the 7mm-08 is essentially a short-action .270 with the ballistics being so close it's not worth mentioning. Only real difference is the 7mm-08 handles 160 class bullets a little better.

I also owned a .280 Rem for a while, and it too was a great caliber but I can't say it did a whole lot that my 7mm-08 can't do except produce more felt recoil.

The .270 Win is great when loaded hot with 130 grain bullets for hunting deer where I do, which is a 470 yard long, straight woods road that used to be a town road. I don't have to make as many corrections out to 300 yards or so, than most other moderate-recoil cartridges, especially when zeroed 1.5" high at 100 yards.
JP

 

[Nature Boy]

Out of curiosity, anyone on this side of the pond shoot a 6.5 Swede in competition?

I know a fella that does. Shoots it in 1,000 yard F Class matches. He’s competitive with it, but the .284 Win and .300 WSM are what rule that endeavor.

 

[Old Stumpy]

I've never seen it since the Creedmoor took off. Why would anyone? It's less accurate, reloads worse, and has nothing to offer in return.

Despite your unfounded claims, the 6.5 Swedish cartridge possesses the same accuracy as the 6.5 CM, reloads just as easy and as well, and offers the same performance with lower chamber pressures.
All that the 6.5 X 48.8 CM offers is case which is less than 1/4" shorter, which seems pointlessly insignificant.
I mean seriously, a measly 1/4", and this is described as a making any real difference?
Give me a break.
The .308 (7.62X51.2) Winchester is 8.8 mm shorter than its' parent cartridge, the .30-06 (7.62X60).
The 6.5 CM is just the 6.5 Swedish shoe-horned into a very slightly shorter package.

Sort of reminds me of the story of "The Emporers' New Clothes".

 

[LoonWulf]

Despite your unfounded claims, the 6.5 Swedish cartridge possesses the same accuracy as the 6.5 CM, reloads just as easy and as well, and offers the same performance with lower chamber pressures.
All that the 6.5 X 48.8 CM offers is case which is less than 1/4" shorter, which seems pointlessly insignificant.
I mean seriously, a measly 1/4", and this is described as a making any real difference?
Give me a break.
The .308 (7.62X51.2) Winchester is 8.8 mm shorter than its' parent cartridge, the .30-06 (7.62X60).
The 6.5 CM is just the 6.5 Swedish shoe-horned into a very slightly shorter package.

Sort of reminds me of the story of "The Emporers' New Clothes".

I don't necessarily disagree, but that 1/4" means the x55 and other Mauser derived rounds don't fit well in American short actions.
None of them are very common as standard chamberings anymore. With as well as most perform, I can only attribute that to the fact that they are stuck going into long actions, and if your gonna go long, might as well for .270 or 30-06.

Honestly I don't think the 6.5x55 offers the 6.5cm any competition in today's market, and not due to poor performance or any true short coming. The .308 is honestly the closest in terms of availability, cost, and performance. Even the 7-08 which I personally like the idea of better than either, except it's also a little long for the actions I want it in, dosent really compete with the CM in terms of cost and availability.

 

[MarshallDodge]

A lightly used 308 is going to be dirt cheap in this market. Still a very viable caliber that will do all the things it ever did well, but the 6.5CM will do almost all of them better.

 

[Buckeye63]

Just ordered my rifle .. I was looking for a lesser expensive , lightweight rifle corrosion resistant ... They are alot of budget boltguns ...
I went with a
Mossberg Patriot Predator TrueTimber Strata in 6.5 Creedmoor

 

[LoonWulf]

Just ordered my rifle .. I was looking for a lesser expensive , lightweight rifle corrosion resistant ... They are alot of budget boltguns ...
I went with a
Mossberg Patriot Predator TrueTimber Strata in 6.5 Creedmoor
View attachment 890534

very cool rifle, looking forward to a range report!

 

[Old Stumpy]

I don't necessarily disagree, but that 1/4" means the x55 and other Mauser derived rounds don't fit well in American short actions.

If you are building a hunting rifle a short action might matter. If you are building a target rifle with a large scope, bipod, target stock, etc. then it doesn't.

 

[LoonWulf]

If you are building a hunting rifle a short action might matter. If you are building a target rifle with a large scope, bipod, target stock, etc. then it doesn't.

Again, not necessarily disagreeing, just looking at it from a slightly different angle...I could also be way off base, as ive never competed or even really paid much attention to whats going on besides the graphs folks post about whats in use.....
My take tho, is that until you start getting into the ELR game, the vast majority of competitive rifles are built on short actions, with short "efficient" cartridges.
This isnt to say that I dont also think that you COULDNT build a completely competitive rifle in any number of chamberings including the Mauser family, Its just not whats currently available as turnkey, or semi custom options.
Id also bet that the Mauser derived cartridges have a target following elsewhere in the world.
Again total supposition, but i THINK here in the us we pretty much went from the 06 to the .308. With wildcats and specialty cartridges being based on those, or at least being shoehorned into those action lengths.
I know that the big magnums were also popular for a while, but it dosent look like they are all that popular anymore either.

 

[TonyAngel]

Wow, this whole thing between the 6.5 Swede and the 6.5CM is turning into a debate.

If the 6.5CM is to the 6.5 Swede what the .308 is to the .30-06, then I can see the benefits of the 6.5CM over the other. For hunters, they don't mind long actions because most hunters that I know aren't shooters. They might go through two boxes of ammo a season and many of the guys I know buy their ammunition by the case so that they can get the same lot numbers. For hunters, shooting a rifle is a means to an end. For shooters, shooting is the end. The only hunter I've ever known that wore out a barrel was my grandfather who shot his double barrel Winchester 12 gauge so much that the ends of the barrels started to split and he had to saw it off.

For a shooter...a guy that puts 500 to 1000 rounds or more a month through his rifle, there are things to contemplate when choosing between a long action cartridge and a short action cartridge.

To use the .308 and .30-06 as an example, the .30-06 isn't much longer than a .308 and only produces about 200 fps more velocity for any given (shared) bullet weight at a particular barrel length. On it's face, 200 fps isn't much, but a knee jerk reaction, all things being equal, would be to take the velocity; but all things aren't equal. A shooter that shoots a lot has to consider other things. First, a short action is just plain easier to manipulate and is faster. The .30-06 also burns throats and barrels much more quickly than a .308. To me choosing .308 over .30-06 meant getting 5000 rounds, and at that point, the barrel was still good, just the throat was toast. All I had to do was take it to my gunsmith and have him cut an inch off of the chamber end and recut the chamber, versus having to have the entire barrel replaced, and barrels like those from Krieger are not cheap nor are they readily available.

Going with a short action round can save you more than just a little powder while still getting the job done.

 

[WisBorn]

I was planning on picking up a Savage AXIS II in 6.5 CM .. Actually went to pick it up... Then I started second guessing....
Im mostly going to do some range shooting, maybe some hawg , Whitetail ...maybe Black Bear hunting.
Why I was looking at the 6.5 CM was because I used to own a Swede Sporter in 6.5x55 .. it was a fine carbine.. I handloaded 140gr SP and 160gr RNSP

But .... Im also considering a 308 Winchester .... I don't have much experience with the 308 Win , I only had one rifle in 308 Win ... I shot a stump and milk jugs ...
But I have owned several 30-06 .. and I really liked the 165gr bullet weight ... And I feel I would have very similar results with the 308win
with less recoil ...

I like the long 140gr 6.5 bullet ,

But I like the larger frontal area of the 308 ... Im in a quandary.

I have never owned the 6.5 CM, but have owned the 308 win. Being a bench rifle the 6.5 would be fun to see what it will do. If hunting is the primary reason for the rifle the 308 is the way to go. Good luck and safe shooting!!!

 

[Varminterror]

If you are building a hunting rifle a short action might matter. If you are building a target rifle with a large scope, bipod, target stock, etc. then it doesn't.

As someone who has enjoyed target shooting competition for a couple decades, and as an engineer who can’t help but geek out over gear, the above statement doesn’t hold water.

Target shooters, at least serious ones, are even more picky about staying with short actions than any hunter would ever need to be. Frankly, that’s a driving force for why the 6.5 creed was invented - target shooters asked for a short action cartridge...