TSA and my checked firearms in St. Louis

[Babbalanja]

Wonder if anyone would like to give me a little advice on an "incident" I had yesterday while transporting a Remington 870 and German Makarov. With Delta Airlines' policy printed from their website in hand, I told the ticketing agent that I had firearms in my checked bag. Her eyes went wide, she muttered something and left. She reappeared and told me to put it on the cart for TSA agents to examine. At their command, I produced the key to my hard Samsonite bag and they examined the contents while I stood 15 feet away. The 870 had the stock removed so that it would fit and was in a sack up sleeve. The Makarov was in a sack up within a soft case. A lot of packing in the bag stabilized them and the other contents.

The ticketing agent called me over and showed me an orange checklist tag like the ones I've signed several times before. She pointed out that the checklist shows that the firearm must meet four requirements 1. unloaded 2. in a crush-proof/hard-sided container/suitcase 3. in a locked container 4. passenger retains key/combination (see attached).

I told her that I'd traveled several times before and that my suitcase was a lockable hard-sided container/suitcase. I had a printout of their web policy that does not mention the "locked container" from the card (see below). She refused to look at my printout and once again counseled with about 4 TSA agents, growing noticibly alarmed.

15 minutes of fretting and the lead TSA agent called me over and said: "You're splitting hairs!" to which I said nothing. He continued, "Let me give you some advice, put these in a case within your case, one of those, you know, this big, that lock. You're splitting hairs. I'll let you go this time, understand?" I nodded and thanked him, accepting the key thrust into my palm.

My question to you is, it appears to me that their website policy and this 'Firearm(s) Unloaded' card do not jibe in that the card mentions a locked container that the web policy does not. Were the TSA agents the last three times I transported guns incorrect and yesterday's agents wrong, or visa-versa? I am contemplating a letter to Delta over the confusion. If this agent decided NOT to let me go this time, would I have been arrested?

Thanks for your advice, but if I may be brash, please, no lectures about how stupid I was/am.

Website policy

"When checking a firearm, you must:
Declare to the Delta representative that you are checking a firearm (If a Security Checkpoint is prior to the Delta ticket counter, you must declare the existence of a firearm to security personnel.)
All firearms must be declared by the passenger to a Delta agent at the main ticket counter
Present firearm(s) unloaded and sign a "Firearms Unloaded" declaration
Firearms must be packed in a hard side case with a key or combination lock in possession of the passenger only
Maintain entry permits in your possession for the country or countries of destination or transit
Ensure small arms ammunition is packed in the manufacturer's original package or securely packed in fiber, wood or metal boxes

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Locked case technically means an FAA approved gun case. (not a suitcase)

He was right...you were splitting hairs. (and they need to reword their little tag)

I wouldn't make the TSA guys mad...its not worth the hassle.

 

[GunsAmerica Fan]

Yea it is so not worth the hassle. But they are also wildly inconsistent. I had to take a bunch of cowboy guns out to End of the Trail and I couldn't get a straight answer out of anyone at the airline, including TSA, as to how many guns could go in one case. You would think enough people do it that they'd know how to handle it, but it is not so.

 

[wishin]

On a different thread where someone was taking a gun on a plane, I posted that the gun toting traveler take a lawyer with him to the airport for this very reason. Even had you called and spoken to a Delta or TSA agent, you would still stand the chance of encountering someone else that has a different spin on the policy. Frankly, I don't know what the answer is, except to say that I'm glad to no longer fly on business like I did in my job. If you were to get a confirming e-mail, or letter from the airline in anticipation of future travels that might help. However, even then you're at their mercy, unless it's signed by someone in authority.

I definately recommend a letter to the carrier. There's a good chance they'll send you a travel voucher. Which would at least be some consolation for the hassle.

 

[divemedic]

From the TSA website:

The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

* You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
* The firearm must be unloaded.
* The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
* The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you. Cases that can be pulled open with little effort do not meet this criterion. The pictures provided here illustrate the difference between a properly packaged and an improperly packaged firearm.


It appears as if you were in compliance.

 

[Babbalanja]

Still nebulous

"The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you."

My bullet-proof Samsonite with its two locking latches completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than me. I guess we could argue the meaning of "completely" or "access," but the TSA language still doesn't seem to preclude my Samsonite from being a locked container. Maybe the TSA expert who admonished me for "splitting hairs" is better educated and informed than I give him credit for?

 

[John Parker]

I've never had issues transporting guns through the airport. I use a hard-sided, locking container that goes inside my suitcase, but I do understand where you are coming from and how frustrating it can be dealing with airline people. Combine them with entry level government employees, and well...
If your Samsonite locks, isn't it keyed to those special TSA keys? I wouldn't want the TSA being able to open my case (because frankly I think they are a bunch of idiots and I don't trust them) and I've never used those locks to lock one of my gun cases.

 

[Gryffydd]

I think the problem comes in with the differing requirements for firearms vs. regular luggage. Regular luggage MUST be accessible by the TSA... That's why they make those special TSA locks. On the other hand, firearms must be locked so that no one, including the TSA has access to it.

 

[Babbalanja]

Good point, but

The TSA agents knew I had a Samsonite lock key as I gave it to them to open the case. They never said anything about having locks that they couldn't open. I also doubt that there exists many common locks that they could not open. But I see your point, however, this was never articulated to me as an issue.

Thanks.

 

[Gryffydd]

I also doubt that there exists many common locks that they could not open.

If they encounter a non-TSA lock on a bag they need to inspect they simply cut the lock and throw it away. However, this does not apply to something containing a firearm--which is probably why they don't like you having your guns mixed in with the rest of your luggage.

hey never said anything about having locks that they couldn't open.

I'm not surprised they didn't say anything--they may not even know the rules very well themselves, but that part is included in their instructions that divemedic just posted:
"The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you."

 

[gunnutery]

I don't remember which companies I've flown with, but based on either the same TSA policy above or previous TSA regs I've always had a lockable case inside my suitcase for my firearms. I've only had one check-in employee go "wide eyed" when I was going through the process. She then said "COOL." I haven't had a problem yet (although I haven't flown since late 2006.

To answer your other question; no you wouldn't have been arrested. You or your luggage wouldn't have been allowed to make the flight.

 

[ny32182]

The process that has always worked hassle-free for me (for pistols) is to have the firearm in its own lockable container, with nothing else in it, and have that case (locked after TSA looks at it) placed inside my regular non-locking suitcase, with the orange tag attached to the exterior of the lockable box.

I lent a hardside/lockable case to a friend of mine recently so he could transport a shotgun... I am 99% sure that case would have had only the shotgun in it, locked, and not be inside of any other suitcase. The rest of his stuff would have been separate in a regular suitcase. I will have to ask him where they placed the orange tag (i.e., if it was attached to the exterior of the case, visible to anyone).

 

[acdodd]

bullet-proof Samsonite with its two locking latches

Those can be open in less than 10 seconds by an experienced TSA screener.
I have seen them do it a number of times.
If they can't open it they will pry it off with a screwdriver.
Also seen that numerous times.
If the TSA can get in the ramp rats would have no trouble.
Alaska Airlines had gang graffiti painted in the baggage hole on several of their planes in Seattle. Would you trust them?

 

[Gun Geezer]

I guess I still do not understand.

How does one transport a shotgun? A locked case inside a locked case? You have to be kidding me. Really? I've never even seen a long gun case big enough to hold another long gun case.

 

[DFW1911]

How does one transport a shotgun? A locked case inside a locked case?

On our yearly trip to Alaska I simply put mine in a hard case that locks and haven't had any hassles. Keep in mind that this is Alaska Airlines, so they're used to seeing firearms from what I can tell.

It gets very confusing trying to follow all the rules and regulations re: flying with a firearm. Even though Alaska Air has been great, some years ago their website gave contradictory instructions on how many firearms could be transported and how they had to be stored.

 

[divemedic]

It gets very confusing trying to follow all the rules and regulations re: flying with a firearm.

The rules and regulations are fairly straightforward; it is the TSA and Airline employees that do not know the rules that are the problem.

 

[fireman 9731]

I got the full body pat-down and my shoes scanned for explosives last week.... Be glad that you didn't get hassled any more than you did...

 

[Babbalanja]

My letter

I went ahead and wrote a letter to Delta, the text of which appears below:

Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Customer Service
P.O. Box 20706
Atlanta, Georgia 30320-6001
1-4-2010

Dear Customer Service:

I write you to recount an incident I had while checking in for Delta Flight 4703 from St. Louis to Salt Lake City yesterday. This was the return leg of my vacation, scheduled to depart at 1:55 PM but delayed until 2:48 PM.

Because of the nature of my business, I regularly travel with checked firearms and have checked them in similar manner several times with Delta, reviewing each time the firearms policy from delta.com, and though there have been times when employees appeared confused, eventually I was cleared and experienced no difficulty. Because of past experience, I always carry a printout of the “Shooting Equipment” policy with me to assist or clarify for ticketing agents as needed and this gives me some measure of reassurance.

Yesterday as I checked my hard-sided locking Samsonite case, I declared to the agent that it contained two firearms. She walked away without explanation and several minutes later returned and told me to place my bag on a cart, which I did. Transportation Security Administration personnel then asked for my key, unlocked the case, and proceeded to inspect and test its contents. After several minutes the ticket agent, who had initialed my boarding pass with a “JW,” showed me a Firearm(s) Unloaded ticket like others I have signed before and pointed out that my firearms needed to be in a “locked container” according to the reverse side of the card’s Checklist. I told her that my case was a locked container and a hard-sided container. She seemed confused and I told her that the policy from the website stated “Firearms must be packed in a hard side case with a key or combination lock in possession of the passenger only” and offered to show her my printout, which she refused to read. She left and once more consulted the TSA agents, who called me over and told me to stand at a spot 15 feet away.

After much consultation and discussion, one of the agents called me over and said, “You’re splitting hairs!” to which I did not respond. He proceeded, “Let me give you some advice, get another container, you know, about this size, and use that inside your case. You’re splitting hairs here, understand? We’re going to let you go this time.” I did not understand what hairs I was splitting as I was simply trying my best to comply with the regulations as posted on the website but was nervous about saying any more as the agitated agent seemed to suggest that if he wanted to “not let me go this time” he could have detained me further or perhaps had me arrested. Keeping my emotions in check, I thanked him, and departed, shaken.

My question to Customer Support would be, why does the website policy not mention the Firearm(s) Unloaded checklist, which according to the latest ticket agent’s interpretation differs from website policy? Or does it, as my suitcase satisfies the “in a locked container” requirement on the checklist? Why was my locked suitcase acceptable the last two times I flew on Delta but not this time if policy has not changed? How does a passenger know he is not in compliance if he follows written policy and does what he believes is right and has done correctly in the past?

I was not trying to “split hairs” or be difficult, I only wish to know what I must do to comply with requirements, a seeming impossibility when different agents, both from Delta and the TSA, interpret their own regulations differently.

I am hopeful that you can provide me with a definitive interpretation as well as consider additional training in both courtesy towards customers and familiarity with baggage allowance regulations for your employees.

Sincerely,




KXXXXXXXXX

Cc: copies of boarding pass, Delta policy, and Firearm(s) Unloaded card

 

[midiwall]

I'm researching this topic for a flight in about a month. I too found the whole issue up in the air, and generally up for "interpretation" by whomever is behind the counter or on the phone.

The one thing that I'll say about this encounter is that my reading of the TSA scripture breaks down like this:

Point one:
The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

To me, that sets the stage that they're talking about a putting a firearm in a bag that you check.

Point two:
The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.

Then, since they're already talking about baggage that's being checked, I think this statement means "a hard-sided container _inside_ of the baggage that you check". i.e., a locked pistol case inside of the bag that's holding my shirts and socks. I agree that the TSA website is vague, the pictures suck, and the picture of the "good" long rifle case shows something that won't fit in anything short of a ski bag or a gutted golf bag container.

ref:
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm


Not looking forward to trying to travel...



Babbalanja: How was your trip in the other direction from the one where you had trouble?

 

[NMGonzo]

What would be a good metal case for handgun transport?

 

[midiwall]

What would be a good metal case for handgun transport?

I'm looking through these now...

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...egoryId=19772&categoryString=10615***20754***

If you figure that the case will be within a bag next to your socks, then I'm not too worried about the case needing to protect the gun on it's own...

 

[Babbalanja]

one way

"Babbalanja: How was your trip in the other direction from the one where you had trouble?"

I brought the firearms only one leg of the trip, so no problems without them. Hey, maybe that's the solution, just never travel with them

 

[wishin]

Babbalanja

Good letter IMHO. Not critizing, but a little more emphasis needed on the inconvenience factor? Just saying...........

 

[bonza]

I will have to ask him where they placed the orange tag (i.e., if it was attached to the exterior of the case, visible to anyone).

It used to be the policy that the firearms tag went on the outside of the case, but that changed sometime in the mid-late 1980s, I think. Now, I'm pretty sure it even states on the tag that it must be inside the case. I lost a rifle flying from NYC to St. Louis back in '83, that I'm pretty sure was due to the external tag 'advertizing' that a firearm was iniside. The airline (TWA) paid me for that one.

 

[Ed Ames]

I have flown many times with various guns.

Usually I'll use a pelican or similar with a big ol' padlock (not TSA) on the outside. It has never been cut, and only rarely been opened by screeners. I've also used a small hard pistol case (again, normal padlock) inside a soft side roller (TSA 'locked') but what's the point.

It is fairly common for non-gun people to advise bringing a gun to enhance security if you must check high-value luggage (e.g. video equipment). I've seen it advised by cameramen, audio pros, and others. The general advice is: put all you high $$$ gear in a big pelican or similar, toss a gun in, lock the whole thing with a proper lock, and go to the airport. If it works well enough to be considered a common "pro travel" trick I can't see why folks here have such a hard time with it.....