TSA and my checked firearms in St. Louis

[midiwall]

...my reading of the TSA scripture breaks down like this:

Point one:
The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

To me, that sets the stage that they're talking about a putting a firearm in a bag that you check.

Point two:
The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.

Then, since they're already talking about baggage that's being checked, I think this statement means "a hard-sided container _inside_ of the baggage that you check". i.e., a locked pistol case inside of the bag that's holding my shirts and socks.

Ah-HAH!... Check the back of the tag that Babbalanja posted up. The last point says:

For handguns: Place signed unloaded firearms tag inside the piece of luggage within close proximity of the hard-sided handgun case that contains the firearm

So they _are_ thinking that this is a case within a case scenario.

Likewise, the question about about rifles is also answered by the back of the tag:

For rifles: Place signed unloaded firearms tag inside the hard-sided gun case

So, at least for Delta/Northwest, it's:
Rifles are in a hard-sided case on their own.
Handguns are in a hard-sided case that's inside of your normal checked baggage.

 

[Island Beretta]

suggest you seek the clarification from TSA; i would defer to them especially since they are actioning the policy. let us know as the information would be good for all of us.. the last thing anyone of us want is to cause or be part of a scene at an airport..

 

[Babbalanja]

Nice catch Midi

[So they _are_ thinking that this is a case within a case scenario.

You are right by inferring what is meant on placement of the tag, but this is not posted on the regulations on the website and the only way I would know what the tag said was when I showed up at the airport, and this would be too late. They should explicitly state that "handguns must be in a locked container within an unlocked suitcase." Simple and straightforward. It's not only me who isn't sure as previous TSA/Delta agents never objected to my having handguns in my hard-sided locked suitcase. I'll definitely post Delta's reply when I get it.

Thanks.

 

[FROGO207]

WOW Am I ever glad I no longer try or have need to travel with firearms.:banghead:

 

[jcwit]

Eversince Dec. 25th the airports are in a state of total confusion and disorder. Even to the point jars of honey have become a hazmet material.

And you wonder why they have no idea what they're doing? Remember they are a government agency.

 

[thezoltar]

http://www.delta.com/traveling_chec...aggage/fragile_bulky/sporting_goods/index.jsp

This looks to me like a dedicated rifle/shotgun/pistol case is required by the airline. Maybe you never had to do this before but this is on their website today. If you scroll down to the rifle section they specifically state it must be a GUN case. I don't think most people consider a suitcase to be a gun case, lockable or not.

 

[TX1911fan]

I always understood the rules as the firearm in a hard sided, locked case ALL BY ITSELF. Then, that case inside your locked luggage. Don't know why they have the requirement for double bagging, but that is how I have understood airline rules. I've only checked guns on American and Southwest, so maybe other airlines word their rules differently. I definitely wouldn't be stubborn with TSA guys. They are generally more stubborn back.

 

[wishin]

......... Even to the point jars of honey have become a hazmet material.

One of the reasons El Al, the Israeli airline, has such a stellar safety record for a country surrounded by enemies, is their attention to detail when it comes to passenger, and baggage security and its contents. I spent a good 30 minute delay once at the Tel Aviv airport trying to explain (and getting grilled) that a sealed can of beer was just that. They finally popped the lid after the scanning and xray equipment could not detect anything conclusive.

 

[chuckusaret]

I too travel with a weapon(s) and to prevent any hassle I do as they say, right wrong or indifferent at all times. You can always file a complaint after your trip. I purchased two Secure It single gun safes that have been mounted to the inside of two of my suitcases, one for the handgun and one for the ammo. Never a problem with the counter clerk or the TSA. I also have one in each of my vehicles. Note: The safes do not require TSA approved locks, the traveler should be the only person with a key or the combination to the safe.

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0045006228564a.shtml

 

[Babbalanja]

Prediction

Yeah, I can predict their response, in summation it will read like this:

Dear ________,

We regret your inconvenience but your suitcase, while hard-sided and lockable, is not approved for transporting firearms. You're splitting hairs, understand? Our Delta ticketing agents, along with the TSA agents with whom they work, are highly trained and knowledgeable. You are fortunate that they did not have you arrested, if for no other reason than your poor reading comprehension as our regulations are clear and unambiguous. We at Delta/NWA will go one step further and place you on our "no-fly" list as frankly, we have our hands full attempting to block foreign nationals who do not produce passports boarding our airliners with explosives.

Thank you for your letter and we look forward to no longer serving you.

 

[midiwall]

I purchased two Secure It single gun safes that have been mounted to the inside of two of my suitcases...

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0045006228564a.shtml

Neat idea - the TSA must love you, that's like no-sweat to them. Kudos.

I need to find something with a rectangular space 17 x 9 that isn't so deep that I can't get it in my bag, and hopefully doesn't cost me an arm and two legs...

 

[wishin]

Babbalanga

LOL. I like your attitude and sense of humor. Where will you be traveling to with the free ticket voucher?

 

[Blackbeard]

Can't believe no one has posted this link yet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjddG5Owsc

It's fairly long but it explains everything about flying with firearms. Yes, ANY hard sided container meets the Federal regulations for checked baggage, including the bag itself. Nothing says a hard sided "gun case" has to go inside another "regular" bag. You did err when you gave TSA your key. ONLY YOU should EVER have your key, per Federal law. You unlock it for them, and when they're satisfied you relock it and you keep the key. That's the law.

 

[midiwall]

Nothing says a hard sided "gun case" has to go inside another "regular" bag.

The TSA rhetoric is unclear on this point, but it does clearly say that airlines have the right to set their own requirements. That said, the back of the Unloaded Firearm tag that the OP posted is very clear on what Northwest/Delta expects.


I found the video a bit disturbing in the sense that the presenter is encouraging people to push back on the TSA. I don't think I would _ever_ stand in front of a TSA agent and demand that he put my shirts back where he found them.

He may be "right" in the pure legal sense, but it's simply not a good idea.

 

[Gryffydd]

Nothing says a hard sided "gun case" has to go inside another "regular" bag.

Not explicitly, no. But the two rules, one requiring the gun be locked and no one else have access to it other than you, and the other requiring that the TSA is able to access your luggage implicitly require that your gun not be simply tossed in with your socks.

 

[Guns and more]

I see hunters checking long guns all the time. They are in a hard sided long gun case and nothing else. So one would conclude a hard suitcase would meet the requirements.
But then you can't lock your suitcase, so that contradicts the above.

Lock your guns in a hard case inside your unlocked suitcase. (I like the idea of a cable to the frame.)

This is the government. Their rules are "secret" (ask to read them) and every checkpoint seems to vary. You'll come to the point of saying, "Do I want to go or not." Then you'll play along.

 

[midiwall]

I see hunters checking long guns all the time. They are in a hard sided long gun case and nothing else. So one would conclude a hard suitcase would meet the requirements.

We learned above that the requirements (on Northwest/Delta) are different for handguns and long guns. Given that you can't reasonably put a case-in-a-case for a long gun, then a single case is sufficient.

The TSA scripture is a guideline, the airlines have the final say.

 

[2000Yards]

TSA is inconsistent

You did err when you gave TSA your key. ONLY YOU should EVER have your key, per Federal law. You unlock it for them, and when they're satisfied you relock it and you keep the key. That's the law.

I've written TSA about this, to clarify what appears to be an inconsistency in how TSA operates and what the Regulations state. Their response quoted the relevant portions of Federal law, then went on to state a completely different set of procedures (namely: surrender my key and wait, upwards of an hour, for my key to be returned to me - OK, they didn't say all of that but that tends to be what happens. The waiting). I've taken about eight trips with firearms, and there are different procedures at different airports, and even between different agents at the same airport.

If you're going to fly, know the law and be prepared to stand your ground as to what is legal or illegal, AS WELL AS what each airline requires or permits, with respect to ticketing or other airline personnel. I've had some wacky and daft "requirements" quoted to me by well-intentioned but ignorant ticketing agents (in the end, TSA or supervisors over-rode what those agents were telling me). However, you are not likely to get anywhere arguing with TSA. It is their way or the highway (literally, you won't be taking an airway), regardless of what the regs state.

On one leg of a trip I almost missed my flight trying to push the I-need-to-maintain-control-of-the-key-at-all-times requirement. I arrived three hours prior to my departure and the airport was empty, but I nearly missed my flight thanks to TSA, the Regs and my own stubborness. Ultimately I surrendered my key and waited, gun case out of sight for 30 minutes until I received my key back and an "OK" to board. My sprint to the gate concluding with the plane being pushed back from the gate as I buckled in to my seat...

While that experience was the worst I've had, TSA has never permitted me to even touch my gun or case once they begin their inspection. For me, the inspection process has varied from being conducted within sight, rapidly, to being done out of sight and taking nearly an hour in one case. They always take the key and handle the locks. The key is returned only after my case has been whisked away. Do you guys have different experiences?

When I fly with firearms I arrrive early to allow for possible delays in the checking process. I know the law and the airline requirements, and generally speaking don't argue with TSA. I view two hours prior to departure as the minimum (cutting it close), with three hours a safe margin. Your airport may differ.

2KYDS

 

[Blackbeard]

But the two rules, one requiring the gun be locked and no one else have access to it other than you, and the other requiring that the TSA is able to access your luggage implicitly require that your gun not be simply tossed in with your socks.

The container that contains the gun must be A) hard-sided, B) lockable, C) not easily pried open, and D) inaccessible by anyone except you. If whatever container you use for a suitcase meets all of those, then it is legal for transporting a firearm. You can put anything else in the case that fits, including your socks.

The video is from a security conference and instructs people how to keep their valuables secure in checked bags. The solution is to pack them with a firearm, because then it is ILLEGAL to use a TSA lock on the container, and you can make it as secure as you like.

 

[midiwall]

The container that contains the gun must be A) hard-sided, B) lockable, C) not easily pried open, and D) inaccessible by anyone except you. If whatever container you use for a suitcase meets all of those, then it is legal for transporting a firearm.

That is the TSA _guideline_ it is not the _rule_ of all airlines.

Again, there's a document (of sorts) in the first post of this thread that clearly calls out the case-in-a-bag rule for handguns on NWA/Delta.


2KYards said it best thus far:

If you're going to fly, know the law and be prepared to stand your ground as to what is legal or illegal, AS WELL AS what each airline requires or permits, with respect to ticketing or other airline personnel.

 

[Blackbeard]

The Delta declaration card does not say that handguns must be in a separate case. Those are instructions on where to place the card. They assume you will have it in a separate case within your regular luggage, but it is not required. Even if it was, it is not TSA's job to enforce airline policy. Also, handguns are far more likely to be stolen from checked luggage if they are in a separate case than if they are in a large case. It's much easier to steal something out of a bag than to steal the whole bag.

 

[Babbalanja]

My interpretation

That "unloaded firearms" card is not on the website so I went with the regulations as posted on the website. And as it shows on the card, one must have the gun in a hard-sided suitcase AND a locked container. I simply concluded that I had met the requirements for both as my hard-sided suitcase IS locked. If the card said that the gun needed to be in a SEPARATE locked container, then the meaning becomes clear, but it doesn't, and so the confusion.

As for the key remaining under my control, when Mr. TSA man told me to hand it over, I handed it over. They then maintained control for the 15-20 minutes of perplexed looks and consternation

 

[doc540]

According to every airline on which I've ever flown with a firearm a suitcase is not considered to be a gun case.

First time I learned my lesson they let me fly with it inside my suitcase, but for the return flight I purchased a $5 plastic pistol case and tiny little lock.

That satisfied their requirements.

But due to forum rules I can't tell you about the time I accidentally ended up inside an airport and on the other side of security and realized I had a loaded handgun in my possession.

 

[CWL]

Flew thru LAX this New Years, TSA hassled me for carrying a butane lighter on me. Not torch, regular flint-ignition, butane lighter.

They had to confer with the circle of TSA people chatting. When I told them it was only a butane lighter, one guys eyes got wide and he said "that's not allowed!"

Finally one of them had the senses to hand it back and let me go on my way.

For me, firearms is easier as they have very strict training on handling procedures.

 

[DRZinn]

Okay, if it has to be in a case inaccessible to anyone but you, and the suitcase must be accessible to TSA...